Brahms Symphonies and Concerti

[daycart1]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyson Does anyone else feel that Brahm's 2 piano concerto's are perhaps the greatest ever written?

I'm sure of it!

Aside from their general sophistication and emotional power, the orchestral parts are fully symphonic, esp. #2. In fact, I'd say that very few symphonies in the entire rep. compare with #2. Another great thing about these concerti is that neither has a single weakish movement. It is also interesting for Brahmsians that #1 is a very early work, and #2 a fairly late work. #2 also has a fabulous very extended cello solo, rather like the oboe solo in the VC.

 

[SoundsGood]

Is anyone familiar with James Levine's Brahms Symphony cycle with the Chicago Symphony on RCA? I only know the 1st, and it is pretty much my favorite recording of the work; everything about it is outstanding. It's hard for me to find recordings of the Brahms Symphonies that I wholly enjoy, but Levine's 1st in Chicago is one.

I've wanted to hear the other three, but of course, they are hard to get ahold of. I believe only the 1st and 3rd were ever released on CD, the rest are on LP. You can find the LPs on eBay. I've really wanted to hear the 2nd. Has anyone heard it or the others and how do they compare to the 1st? The 1st was recorded at the end of a recording session of Mahler 3, so basically what you hear is mostly one take. It's very exciting and a red-blooded reading. Curious if the rest of the cycle is similar.

I don't have an LP player, otherwise I'd pick them up on eBay. I could probably track one down if I really wanted to, but just seeing if anyone has heard this cycle and if it would be worth it.

 

[mbhaub]

This set was a knockout when it first appeared -- this was a young man's Brahms. Brash, exciting, awesome performances from the CSO and excellent 1970s RCA sound. The German Requiem was superb, too. Sadly, the entire set has never been released, but would sure be a candidate for rerelease. There are several superb Levine recordings that have been hard to get: Tchaikovsky 6th, Mahler 7th come to mind. Write to RCA. Maybe they'll do something.

 

[DarkAngel]

I was listening again to my Bernstein/NYPO/Sony set and what a great set this is! Do not be fooled into getting the later DG/VPO set, the early Sony/NYPO is by far better. Comes on three mid priced remastered CDs part of the wonderful Bernstein Century series (buy all of this series you can BTW) and easy to get used at Amazon even cheaper. Like Jochum/EMI Lennie has full measure of these works with tremendous power and excitement yet deep passion and ferver when required that really sweep you away, nothing held back.......Bernstein is in his element here and makes Karajan et al seem completely lost and hopelessly rigid by comparison.

Some people don't like the Sony SBM remasters but I just love them, very detailed and lively with great soundstage, very different from a thick lush opaque Telarc sound from 1980s/90s. If you don't have these put them on your short list.

 

[mbhaub]

I hated these recordings! Actually, I bought the coupling with 2/3 and that was enough for me. Bernstein is leadfooted, earthbound, and even dull. The phrasing is pointless and impeded the natural flow of the music. In better hands the finale of 2 should just take your breath away -- not here. It's flaccid and uninspired. Bernstein was just not a natural Brahmsian. Maybe he was doing too much Mahler at this time and tried to interpret it that way. I don't know what it was but for me these recordings fall flat. And I think the sound is dreadful: thin, screechy strings. Ouch! In a world with only Bernstein's Brahms it might be acceptable, but the competition in this repertoire is too great. With Szell, Barbirolli, Solti, Jochum, Monteux, Sanderling, and many others, this early Bernstein set is an also-ran. His DG remakes are better in sound and performance. The 20 years he had to rethink the music seems to have paid off. But even his DG set is outclassed by many rivals.
There are some people who love these disks for some reason, but not me! Even Bruno Walter had more excitement and drive than Lenny. I should add that I had the Royal Edition (remember those ugly covers?) and perhaps this release has cleaned up the sound. I hope so.

 

[daycart1]

Interesting disagreement!

I have this set on vinyl--the sonics are good, I think.
Bernstein tends to emphasize the Brahms-as-brooding-old-guy angle as he's made clear in a lot of little articles and speeches. Sometimes this works to great effect: as in 2/2, but other times, I agree it is a little heavy, as you say in 2/4. In general, I think his slow movements work best in this set.
So it is certainly a set worth owning, but none of the performances are #1, IMO.

 

[DarkAngel]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbhaub I hated these recordings! Actually, I bought the coupling with 2/3 and that was enough for me. Bernstein is leadfooted, earthbound, and even dull.

MB
We must be listening to different recordings since I find them to be the polar opposite of your descriptions........actually you better decribe his his later DG/VPO set which is restrained and earthbound compared to Sony/NYPO set.

Quote:

There are some people who love these disks for some reason, but not me!

That's me

 

[zumaro]

The DG Bernstein Brahms 4th I hated so much, it is one of a select few disks I have ever returned to the shop. The music was disconcertingly pulled around all over the place, apparently for some kind of emotional effect, with tempos for the 2nd and 4th movements which made the music feel more like a life sentence rather than Shaw's legendary sermon. Probably what is my favorite piece in the symphonic repertoire turned into an ordeal - but quickly replaced by Carlos Kleiber's far superior version I am glad to say. This was in the early days of CD, and I might add that both the Kleiber and Bernstein were sonically awful disks, with a shrill glassy digital edge to them.

 

[mbhaub]

I agree with your assessments of the Bernstein DG set -- not top drawer either. However, I feel the music flows better, the phrasing is much more natural, the balances better. This is due, in no small part, to the VPO, which, with a 100+ tradition of playing these masterworks under the greatest conductors who ever lived, have a tough time adjusting to conductors with contrarian views. (One wonders what Rattle had to do to get them to play the Beethoven cycle his way.)
As badly as he stretches out Brahms, his Tchaikovsky 6th is even worse. But then, his Schumann's are superb.
I locate the Sony set and compare. It's been 15 or so years since I heard them and maybe they aren't as bad as I recall.

There is one Bernstein/DG/Vienna set I'll never part with: the Mahler cycle on DVD. Just wrapped it up this week. Although this belongs in another thread, this confirms something those of us who heard Lenny live have always known: he does much better (unbeatable?) when there's a live audience.

 

[scottder]

Anyone want to recommend a good modern set (I believe Haitink has only done the 4th for LSO live).

 

[Mark from HFR]

Quote:

Originally Posted by scottder Anyone want to recommend a good modern set (I believe Haitink has only done the 4th for LSO live).

Oh boy! A chance to be a grizzled old curmudgeon! I don't do this very often, but when it comes to Brahms, I firmly align myself with the "I sure miss the good old days" crowd. In my impertinent opinion, the last good Brahms cycle was Bruno Walter with the New York Philharmonic in the mid-1950's. Sound quality is restricted mono, and they rarely get reissued because Columbia (later CBS, then Sony, now Sony/RCA) always favors the stereo remake he made a few years later when his age was starting to show (although the #3 from the stereo set is a classic).

Among later cycles, the Karajan is attractive in its manner; it would go great with your decor if you have any velvet paintings. The Steinberg boasts an excellent #2, though the others are just okay. The Bernsteins are wayward but at times quite interesting (moreso in the later set). The Levine cycle was pretty good as a modern version in the overly-tense Toscaninian mode. Abbado has made a couple of fairly dull cycles. Kurt Sanderling made a nicely sprung cycle in East Germany in the 1970's, though it is nowhere near Walter's intensity. Several conductors in Cleveland led decent cycles: Szell (with a #3 of classic status), Maazel, and Dohnanyi. More recently, Harnoncourt made a lyrical set with the BPO which had some nice revisionist insights, though the recorded sound wasn't so good. Mackerras contributed a lively set from Scotland with chamber textures and bright tempos. The Haitink LSO Live set is sturdy and wise, though too reserved in the long run. For lively modern discourse, I'd recommend the Mackerras, although it is nothing like the vintage approach of Walter or Furtwangler. Of all the mainstream cycles of the last fifty years, I guess I'd nod toward the Solti, which keeps textures clear and energy high.

Mark

 

[scottder]

*hands Mark grizzled old curmudgeon badge*

I was just curious, because when Brahms gets brought up, it's almost always older recordings mentioned. May have to check out that Walter set though.


Drat this forum!

 

[daycart1]

Mark and I have similar tastes--I like both the Walter cycles a lot. And for a modern I was going to suggest Solti/Chicago--very nice brass as one would expect....

Also from curmudgeon land: The Monteux 2nd is one of my favorites. And the old Furtwaenglers are great, but the sound is pretty lousy. And Klemperer is fine for the 1st and 4th.

 

[Bunnyears]

Quote:

Originally Posted by scottder Anyone want to recommend a good modern set (I believe Haitink has only done the 4th for LSO live).

Haitinck does have all of the symphonies recorded with the Concertgebouw orchestra. He also has other recordings with the LSO as well. The 4th is the only one in SACD, though.

 

[Tyson]

Methinks Mark needs to check out the Jochum cycles (both the DG mono and the EMI Stereo).