[mattigol]

Hey guys,

I am starting to break a sweat here. These adventures in vinyl aren't anywhere near as inexpensive as I thought, even if look strictly for preowned equipment. I scored a complete classic collection of 200 LPs for 20€, so far so good. But finding a well cared for table below 500 Euro appears to be really difficult. Usually the styli and or carts are of dubious quality, so there goes another 100-200 minimum. Then to find a decent phono stage sets one back another 400 minimum. And that's mid-fi material throughout. Will an analog rig like that really put my digital front end to shame? I seriously doubt it.

A vinyl rig that takes my source material to another level, preowned but not abused, appears to cost well over 1500 US$ plus a record cleansing device. That's a lot of dough for an occasional spin.

M.

 

[EdipisReks]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mattigol Hey guys, I am starting to break a sweat here. These adventures in vinyl aren't anywhere near as inexpensive as I thought, even if look strictly for preowned equipment. I scored a complete classic collection of 200 LPs for 20€, so far so good. But finding a well cared for table below 500 Euro appears to be really difficult. Usually the styli and or carts are of dubious quality, so there goes another 100-200 minimum. Then to find a decent phono stage sets one back another 400 minimum. And that's mid-fi material throughout. Will an analog rig like that really put my digital front end to shame? I seriously doubt it. A vinyl rig that takes my source material to another level, preowned but not abused, appears to cost well over 1500 US$ plus a record cleansing device. That's a lot of dough for an occasional spin. M.

send Zanth a PM. he has been going through vinyl gear for a while, and can give good advice about what sounds great at different price levels, used and new.

 

[909]

I've heard that you must know how to properly use a turntable. It isn't just put the vinyl on, spin, and carefully drop the needle. There is some or probably a lot of skill involved. It seems like a lost art form somewhat. CDs are so much simpler, but there is something still very alluring about vinyl. And as I’ve read vinyl should sound better—but how much is a very good question.

I am curious to know the answer to your question too.

 

[midlife]

For $1500 including a phono stage you could definately get something that will sound at least as good as an expensive cd player. for $500 you could also find something that rivals cd. Used Thorens, Rega, Linn Basik, Ariston, Lenco, Denon all can found fairly cheap. Rega rb250 tonearm, Grado cart and you have a great setup that can still be tweaked/upgraded substantially. And don't forget that all receivers/int.amps/preamps from about pre 1984 would have decent phonostages, and can be found for next to nothing. Also turntables don't depreciate in value as much as cd players.

 

[mattigol]

Thanks all,

I read somewhere my Sugden's phonostage is crap. Not so? Should I drop the dedicated phono amp for now and invest in a better deck/arm/cart up front?

Cheers, M.

 

[britishbane]

Maybe things are more expensive in Europe but I've spent about $350 for a MMF-5 (a decidedly midfi table w/ an ok goldring cart) $500 on a tube phono and much much more on about 200 records, and I think my rig sounds better than most cd players I've heard.

 

[imported_dom_]

one thing that should never be underestimated in my opinion is cleaning of lps.

get a liquid cleaning system (not a spray and brush or just brush thing) this is the only way to really clean lps.
the best ones are vacuum based. so they suck off the cleaning fluid.

also once an lp is clean you have to put it in a new sleeve. i find the poly paper ones work best.
no point in putting a clean lp into an old inner sleeve full of dust or worst those horrid card ones you seem to get these days.

also get a decent brush like a decca one. the disk is bound to pick something up over time being played so a quick brush while its spinning every now and then is good. the decca one also removes static if this had built up.


also as someone mentioned earlyer setup is key. if you buy a deck with a cartridge pre fitted dont take there fitting as good. you should buy an alignment protractor (just a bit of card for a cheap one) and also a stylus force guage.
http://www.audiophilia.com/features/cartridge_setup.htm
is a good read to give you an idea of what is invovled.

also
http://www.theanalogdept.com/tonearm_alignment.htm
is another good read.

 

[GoRedwings19]

I would love to get into vinyl but there is two problems.

A)unsteady hand, which means a nice of lp's would get ruined.
B) I think this is the most important aspect, I am way too lazy

I use my ipod more than my cdp cos I am way too lazy to get up...

 

[memepool]

Since you are in Europe you will have a large selection of old British, German and Swiss decks which are pretty high-end.

A 2nd hand 70's/80's Linn Sondek with a Linn basik tonearm won't set you back more than 500 Euro and many people regard this as one of the best decks ever made certainly capable of seeing off CD players into the thousands even in it's most basic form.
Also Thorens TD125's are very resonable although budget for a new tonearm. This guy in Holland has a very tidy looking example for 295 UKP (400Euro) and it comes with an SME arm which you can sell for 150-250 alone and get a Rega RB250 with Origin Live / Michell modifications.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1

Also the Lenco decks are a total bargain. If you can find a L88/89 these need a decent plinth but can be as good as any modern deck and are usually under 100UKP.

I wouln't bother spending 400 Euro on a phono stage when there are so many old 2nd hand amps which have great phono stages. Lookout for Cyrus 1 and 2, Pioneer A400 or NAD3020 all of which have good phono stages and can be found for 50-200 UKP depending on the version.

A good new cart like the Goldring 1024 is just over 100UKP and is a very capable performer for the money.

Record cleaners are well worth it if you plan on buying a lot of 2nd hand records ( which is where the bargains are obviously). There is a vacuum cleaning wet system machine called Oki Noki which is imported by a dutch company for around 200 UKP.

I guess it does all add up but assuming your CD player is an expensive one (1000+) you don't really need to spend more than 1/2 that amount to get something comparable. Spending 1000 on a 2nd hand vinyl front end like those above will give you something seriously high-end which will make you wonder why people bother with CDs....

 

[bigshot]

You're looking at the more expensive equipment. Check out the midrange stuff from the 70s. I don't know about Europe, but it is perfectly possible to put together a great sounding turntable setup here in the states for $100 for a used turntable, $75 for a new cartridge and $25 for a phono preamp (or $50 for a 70s preamp with phono input). It can't be that different in Europe.

If you want to spend a lot of money, you can... but it really isn't necessary.

See ya
Steve

 

[memepool]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mattigol Thanks all, I read somewhere my Sugden's phonostage is crap. Not so? Should I drop the dedicated phono amp for now and invest in a better deck/arm/cart up front? Cheers, M.

http://www.hifichoice.co.uk/review_print.asp?ID=1933

The Sugden is something of a cult classic. It's a well respected manufacturer and the design hasn't altered that much since the 60's so I would imagine the phono stage is pretty good. I havn't heard one but it's consitently well reviewed in UK mags so so I would stick with that if you like the sound and allocate all the funds to the turntable.

It's better to spend the maximum you can afford on the table itself and then the arm and cart in that order. Even a humble Audio Technica cart for 40 Euro will sound ok on your amp as that nice class -A topography will smooth out the rough edges.

 

[newmanoc]

I think you can do the job for a little over 500 euros, but much less than 1500.

For around $800 or so (say 700 to 750 euros) I have seen Rega P25's for sale with good cartridges on both ebay and audiogon. This is a table that will definitely show up CD players costing 5 - 4 times more if paired with a good phono stage. A decent phono stage is Rega's Fono, which usually sells for around $150 used. A GREAT phono stage for the money is the Dynavector P 75 (around $375 used, $600 new). As an LP 12 lover I could never not recommend you look at one of these, which for the same money can sound much better. But they are much more complicated beasts and require a very knowledgeable hand to set them up properly.

If you have a Linn dealer willing to work with you, go for a used LP 12 with valhalla power supply and an akito tonearm, often available for around $900. If you do want to go up to $1500 or so, you can get an LP 12 Valhalla with Cirkus bearing upgrade and Ittok arm. This is an incredible table for the money. Properly set up, this table will do more than show up CD players, it will likely ignite a passion for vinyl. Mind you, I like my CD player and listen to it often. But there is so much great music out there on vinyl, and so much more of it seems to come through in the analog format, that you owe it to yourself to try this.

 

[Jacktorse]

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoRedwings19 I would love to get into vinyl but there is two problems. A)unsteady hand, which means a nice of lp's would get ruined. B) I think this is the most important aspect, I am way too lazy I use my ipod more than my cdp cos I am way too lazy to get up...

As for A, my rega RB 250 tonearm has an automatic damped needle drop lever on it. Just cue up the needle and push the lever and away you go. Same lever picks the needle up.

 

[Lavalamp]

Quote:

Originally Posted by memepool A 2nd hand 70's/80's Linn Sondek with a Linn basik tonearm won't set you back more than 500 Euro and many people regard this as one of the best decks ever made certainly capable of seeing off CD players into the thousands even in it's most basic form.

A cheaper alternative that will give you a good 90% of a Linn is the Thorens 160 Super. Thorens tweaked their standard 160 based on the Linn Sondek to make it the 160 Super.

 

[mattigol]

Thanks a lot for all the good advice and URLs! I suppose I really don't have to start out with some Michell/TR/VPI/Wilson Benesch table to get "into the groove".

Have checked out phono stages: Low-end examples include Loricraft/Garrard Missing Link, Tom Evans Microgroove, Trichord Dino, GSP Gram 2, and the White Noise Audio Phono stage. David White was very helpful in a brief email exchange. All starting around 400 Pound Sterling new/assembled. Hard to find used, and even then relatively expensive. So I guess I should take some negative comments with a grain of salt and feel happy my Sugden has a phono stage already fitted. Can't be all that bad compared to NADs or Cyruses.

Will check out the TD160Super. How about the TD2001 (which I have on my ebay radar right now).

Cheers, M.