Bowers&Wilkins new flagship the P9!

[quiet listener]

I don't know about other phones, but comparing the P9's sound quality straight out of iPhone 6s with iPhone 6s + Dragonfly Red, the sound quality does improve immensely using external DAC/AMP. The difference is quite significant, there is so much clarity.

 

[fonna]

   
 
I've been testing these cans quite a bit over the last few days, both in the store and now at home. In my experience these headphones absolutely require a dac/amp combo. I tried the pair in the store with a Samsung S5 and tried these at home hooking them directly to my laptop. In both cases it sounded absolutely terrible, as in "I can't believe anyone would spend $200 for this, let alone $900" terrible. Sure, there was enough volume to make you deaf but there was no music coming out of them, just a collection of sounds. Hook them up with my OPPO HA-2 and these really start to shine.
 
I'm still trying to get used to the midbase hump. Sure, it's there during some songs. But over the last day I've gotten more used to it and it only affects certain songs. Currently I'm experimenting with a very subtle equalizer correction in foobar2000 which seems to remove 90% of the negative tendencies. Since I've only had them for a couple of days I still need test this a bit more - but overall the experience with these headphones is overwhelmingly positive. Songs where the hump is not present are absolutely fantastic to listen to across the full spectrum - they are comfortable and they look good. They do absolutely need a DAC/amp though - without it you're not doing them anywhere near justice.

​agree, I have also been using the p9's with my HA-2 and this combination is fantastic

 

[Sonic Defender]

I don't know about other phones, but comparing the P9's sound quality straight out of iPhone 6s with iPhone 6s + Dragonfly Red, the sound quality does improve immensely using external DAC/AMP. The difference is quite significant, there is so much clarity.

At the same volume? I certainly accept that the sound signature can shift as new gear is used, but it won't change the sound signature of the headphone significantly, that really isn't scientifically possible, unless the two amps/amp + DACs being compared are very different sounding to begin with, and or, if one of the amps and DAC devices is really poorly designed. Don't forget, the majority of amps for instance, even very inexpensive ones, actually have distortion ratings well below the point of practical audibility. Really nasty ones when pushed and with a load will certainly introduce some audible distortion, but that isn't as common a reality as we might expect. The P9 sounded pretty nice from my G4, albeit too quiet for my preferences.
 
Now I can really accept more clarity being introduced by a better DAC, that isn't so hard to accept, but that isn't what was being discussed. The idea was that the P9 requires more power to start to be itself, but the reality is that the P9 is extremely easy to drive. Yes, I can agree with you that some improvement is possible with a better amp as they can handle the frequency response swings better and help control the driver, but again, unless the other amp was extremely bad at this, you aren't getting significant changes simply from adding a little more power which is what has been suggested. You may get minor changes, but we aren't talking night and day here.
 
With very difficult to drive headphones certainly the effects realized by better amplification will be more obvious and substantial, but people need to be realistic, the P9 is a very easy to drive headphone. I have never had a headphone suddenly sound night and day better when switching amps, I'm not saying there aren't shifts, and some certainly are audible improvements, but repeating myself again, they have never been so significant as to really change the way the headphone's signature is perceived, more like minor differences. Again, I am not saying no difference is possible, nor am I implying minor differences can't be meaningful because they can.
 
Edit: a caveat/disclaimer, if the P9 had a very erratic frequency response that could also be a factor and in some cases yield more obvious improvements, but I as of yet haven't seen any real measurements so hard to say one way or the other.

 

[Genesis777]

I received my P9 headphones and have had a chance to spend some time listening to them..
I am blown away by them, I've owned everything from the LCD-XC, HD800, TH 900, Alpha dog
and many others, I was always disappointed with them, while they were great in the highs they
would lack bass or vice-versa, I always felt like I was settling so I kept on the hunt buying and 
selling rinse and repeat.
 
The P9 IMO deliver in all categories, I feel like they were custom made just for me! I couldn't
be any happier with them, they are amazing...This is my first pair of B&W headphones when
I first plugged them in I was a little surprised at the bass, it's presence is strong, I was listening
to Hans Zimmer Harvey Two-Face from the Dark Knight and it gave me goosebumps it sounded
so good.
 
Initial impression was the weight and clamp seemed a tad too much but after a half hour I got
used to them. They are not featherweights like say the HD650 or 700 for sure but they are
comfortable and built like a tank, no cheap plastics here.
 
The fit and finish is impeccable, they are gorgeous in person..Truth be told from the pictures the
looks were really a mixed bag for me but after seeing them in person they look great..If you took
a leap ordered a pair without testing them first, I don't think you will be disappointed! 

 

[Kukua]

I received my P9 headphones and have had a chance to spend some time listening to them..
I am blown away by them, I've owned everything from the LCD-XC, HD800, TH 900, Alpha dog
and many others, I was always disappointed with them, while they were great in the highs they
would lack bass or vice-versa, I always felt like I was settling so I kept on the hunt buying and 
selling rinse and repeat.

The P9 IMO deliver in all categories, I feel like they were custom made just for me! I couldn't
be any happier with them, they are amazing...This is my first pair of B&W headphones when
I first plugged them in I was a little surprised at the bass, it's presence is strong, I was listening
to Hans Zimmer Harvey Two-Face from the Dark Knight and it gave me goosebumps it sounded
so good.

Initial impression was the weight and clamp seemed a tad too much but after a half hour I got
used to them. They are not featherweights like say the HD650 or 700 for sure but they are
comfortable and built like a tank, no cheap plastics here.

The fit and finish is impeccable, they are gorgeous in person..Truth be told from the pictures the
looks were really a mixed bag for me but after seeing them in person they look great..If you took
a leap ordered a pair without testing them first, I don't think you will be disappointed! 

your impressions are succinct and accurate per my experience...
I own practically all the thys called TOTL headphones today and i say without reservation the p9s will be the first one I'll grab as they just put a smile on my old mug(pardon the term) everytime i listen to them....
Are they the best in my collection(no) but for below $1000 they're with doubt UNBEATABLE!!!
My opinion with over 30yr audio experience...but everything is subjective i hasten to add...enjoy!!!

 

[CluelessAudio]

I received my P9 headphones and have had a chance to spend some time listening to them..
I am blown away by them, I've owned everything from the LCD-XC, HD800, TH 900, Alpha dog
and many others, I was always disappointed with them, while they were great in the highs they
would lack bass or vice-versa, I always felt like I was settling so I kept on the hunt buying and 
selling rinse and repeat.

The P9 IMO deliver in all categories, I feel like they were custom made just for me! I couldn't
be any happier with them, they are amazing...This is my first pair of B&W headphones when
I first plugged them in I was a little surprised at the bass, it's presence is strong, I was listening
to Hans Zimmer Harvey Two-Face from the Dark Knight and it gave me goosebumps it sounded
so good.

Initial impression was the weight and clamp seemed a tad too much but after a half hour I got
used to them. They are not featherweights like say the HD650 or 700 for sure but they are
comfortable and built like a tank, no cheap plastics here.

The fit and finish is impeccable, they are gorgeous in person..Truth be told from the pictures the
looks were really a mixed bag for me but after seeing them in person they look great..If you took
a leap ordered a pair without testing them first, I don't think you will be disappointed! 

You guys aren't helping me. Someone says they're bad for the price, you need an amp, you don't need an amp, they're amazing etc. Did you try them straight from a phone?

 

[Kukua]

You guys aren't helping me. Someone says they're bad for the price, you need an amp, you don't need an amp, they're amazing etc. Did you try them straight from a phone?

To get the very best out of the p9s you need an amp dac like the ha2 by oppo....these headphones require more power than you get from a phone directly....I'll strongly recommend one for maximum fluidity

 

[Genesis777]

I didn't play them from my phone so I can't give you any feedback there.

 

[Genesis777]

They certainly surprised the hell out of me in a good way!

 

[Mikeoscar]

  At the same volume? I certainly accept that the sound signature can shift as new gear is used, but it won't change the sound signature of the headphone significantly, that really isn't scientifically possible, unless the two amps/amp + DACs being compared are very different sounding to begin with, and or, if one of the amps and DAC devices is really poorly designed. Don't forget, the majority of amps for instance, even very inexpensive ones, actually have distortion ratings well below the point of practical audibility. Really nasty ones when pushed and with a load will certainly introduce some audible distortion, but that isn't as common a reality as we might expect. The P9 sounded pretty nice from my G4, albeit too quiet for my preferences.
 
Now I can really accept more clarity being introduced by a better DAC, that isn't so hard to accept, but that isn't what was being discussed. The idea was that the P9 requires more power to start to be itself, but the reality is that the P9 is extremely easy to drive. Yes, I can agree with you that some improvement is possible with a better amp as they can handle the frequency response swings better and help control the driver, but again, unless the other amp was extremely bad at this, you aren't getting significant changes simply from adding a little more power which is what has been suggested. You may get minor changes, but we aren't talking night and day here.
 
With very difficult to drive headphones certainly the effects realized by better amplification will be more obvious and substantial, but people need to be realistic, the P9 is a very easy to drive headphone. I have never had a headphone suddenly sound night and day better when switching amps, I'm not saying there aren't shifts, and some certainly are audible improvements, but repeating myself again, they have never been so significant as to really change the way the headphone's signature is perceived, more like minor differences. Again, I am not saying no difference is possible, nor am I implying minor differences can't be meaningful because they can.
 
Edit: a caveat/disclaimer, if the P9 had a very erratic frequency response that could also be a factor and in some cases yield more obvious improvements, but I as of yet haven't seen any real measurements so hard to say one way or the other.

For me an amp is about so much more than merely the volume level or amount of power, amongst other things it can have a major influence on the sound separation, soundstage and bass control with the volume being identical. I can drive the P9's from my laptop with a volume level which causes my head to explode, but it still sounds like ****. It's not just about getting the drivers to start vibrating, but more importantly to stop the vibration as the music demands. A mismatched amplifier will struggle most with this part, causing distortion and lack of soundstage. At the danger of repeating myself, it's not about the volume.
 
As an example, two years ago I got a serious pair of ($3k) full size speakers which sounded absolutely fantastic in the store. After having bought them and experiencing the first few days of confirmation bias induced euphoria, it quickly became apparent these sounded a lot worse than the ones in the store did. Muddy, unmusical, boring, distorted... Yet the (30 year old) amplifier it was paired with had recently been measured by an electrical engineer and was distortion free, while the power rating was identical to the amplifier used in the store. The volume was usually just below a quarter. After scratching my head for two months, the store I bought the speakers from was kind enough to lend me their amplifier for a few days. Immediately the sound improved to what I'd expected when I bought the speakers in the first place, so an amplifier got added to the system. Two years later I'm still incredibly happy with this combination, which long exceeds the confirmation bias period.
 
Now I firmly believe that buying a far more expensive amplifier for this set of speakers would only have resulted in a very minimal increase in sound quality. Once an amplifier is good enough for a certain set, then there is not much left to improve on. But having an unsuited amplifier can truly ruin the sound and make them perform way under their potential. I've experienced the same with the P9's - you could call the difference subtle if you want (a single instrument playing a low tempo tune sounds much the same for example), but as soon as the music becomes even slightly more complex the differences become huge - with amplifier it stays musical and you can keep all the instruments separated, without it becomes a mash of meaningless noise. One is fun and enjoyable, the other is hard work to listen to.
 
As you rightly point out, it could be the DAC. In all honesty, unlike with amplifiers, I don't have experience listening to differents DAC's side by side. But tom's hardware did quite some tests and found no meaningful difference in sound quality between a 2$ and 2000$ DAC.  So while I cannot exclude the DAC as the source of the sound difference, I do doubt it has so much influence.
 
Perhaps you're lucky and the iphone6 simply has a very good on board amplifier - I don't own one, I don't have access to one so I can't tell. All I can say is the sound from both my and laptop benefits immeasurably from using an external amplifier.

 

[Sonic Defender]

   
 
As you rightly point out, it could be the DAC. In all honesty, unlike with amplifiers, I don't have experience listening to differents DAC's side by side. But tom's hardware did quite some tests and found no meaningful difference in sound quality between a 2$ and 2000$ DAC.  So while I cannot exclude the DAC as the source of the sound difference, I do doubt it has so much influence.
 
Perhaps you're lucky and the iphone6 simply has a very good on board amplifier - I don't own one, I don't have access to one so I can't tell. All I can say is the sound from both my and laptop benefits immeasurably from using an external amplifier.

The main difference with either any competent DAC or amp is with sound signature, assuming enough of a difference between what you are comparing. People greatly over-estimate the difference in amps and DAC choices for sure. The few times you read about actual blind testing the results are usually not very supportive of significant differences. My point remains that the P9 is very easy to drive and simply adding additional power is really not likely to make a significant difference. Some difference, sure, that is reasonable, but the claims that the P9 suddenly changes character and becomes really different seems very hard to fathom. Again, I have no doubt it is easy to improve over an iPhone 6S.

 

[CluelessAudio]

You guys aren't helping me. Someone says they're bad for the price, you need an amp, you don't need an amp, they're amazing etc. Did you try them straight from a phone?

What about when using a macbook pro? I guess that is a bit better than a phone but still needs an amp?

 

[quiet listener]

At the same volume? I certainly accept that the sound signature can shift as new gear is used, but it won't change the sound signature of the headphone significantly, that really isn't scientifically possible, unless the two amps/amp + DACs being compared are very different sounding to begin with, and or, if one of the amps and DAC devices is really poorly designed. Don't forget, the majority of amps for instance, even very inexpensive ones, actually have distortion ratings well below the point of practical audibility. Really nasty ones when pushed and with a load will certainly introduce some audible distortion, but that isn't as common a reality as we might expect. The P9 sounded pretty nice from my G4, albeit too quiet for my preferences.

Now I can really accept more clarity being introduced by a better DAC, that isn't so hard to accept, but that isn't what was being discussed. The idea was that the P9 requires more power to start to be itself, but the reality is that the P9 is extremely easy to drive. Yes, I can agree with you that some improvement is possible with a better amp as they can handle the frequency response swings better and help control the driver, but again, unless the other amp was extremely bad at this, you aren't getting significant changes simply from adding a little more power which is what has been suggested. You may get minor changes, but we aren't talking night and day here.

With very difficult to drive headphones certainly the effects realized by better amplification will be more obvious and substantial, but people need to be realistic, the P9 is a very easy to drive headphone. I have never had a headphone suddenly sound night and day better when switching amps, I'm not saying there aren't shifts, and some certainly are audible improvements, but repeating myself again, they have never been so significant as to really change the way the headphone's signature is perceived, more like minor differences. Again, I am not saying no difference is possible, nor am I implying minor differences can't be meaningful because they can.

Edit: a caveat/disclaimer, if the P9 had a very erratic frequency response that could also be a factor and in some cases yield more obvious improvements, but I as of yet haven't seen any real measurements so hard to say one way or the other.

At the same volume, yes. So my conclusion is the p9s probably don't need extra power , but they do require an external DAC if you intend to pair them with iPhone 6s. The sound quality coming straight out of iPhone 6s are simply not doing the headphones justice.

Perhaps the new lighting cable + DAC will change this situation, we'll see.

 

[pbui44]

For me an amp is about so much more than merely the volume level or amount of power, amongst other things it can have a major influence on the sound separation, soundstage and bass control with the volume being identical. I can drive the P9's from my laptop with a volume level which causes my head to explode, but it still sounds like ****. It's not just about getting the drivers to start vibrating, but more importantly to stop the vibration as the music demands. A mismatched amplifier will struggle most with this part, causing distortion and lack of soundstage. At the danger of repeating myself, it's not about the volume.

As an example, two years ago I got a serious pair of ($3k) full size speakers which sounded absolutely fantastic in the store. After having bought them and experiencing the first few days of confirmation bias induced euphoria, it quickly became apparent these sounded a lot worse than the ones in the store did. Muddy, unmusical, boring, distorted... Yet the (30 year old) amplifier it was paired with had recently been measured by an electrical engineer and was distortion free, while the power rating was identical to the amplifier used in the store. The volume was usually just below a quarter. After scratching my head for two months, the store I bought the speakers from was kind enough to lend me their amplifier for a few days. Immediately the sound improved to what I'd expected when I bought the speakers in the first place, so an amplifier got added to the system. Two years later I'm still incredibly happy with this combination, which long exceeds the confirmation bias period.

Now I firmly believe that buying a far more expensive amplifier for this set of speakers would only have resulted in a very minimal increase in sound quality. Once an amplifier is good enough for a certain set, then there is not much left to improve on. But having an unsuited amplifier can truly ruin the sound and make them perform way under their potential. I've experienced the same with the P9's - you could call the difference subtle if you want (a single instrument playing a low tempo tune sounds much the same for example), but as soon as the music becomes even slightly more complex the differences become huge - with amplifier it stays musical and you can keep all the instruments separated, without it becomes a mash of meaningless noise. One is fun and enjoyable, the other is hard work to listen to.

As you rightly point out, it could be the DAC. In all honesty, unlike with amplifiers, I don't have experience listening to differents DAC's side by side. But tom's hardware did quite some tests and found no meaningful difference in sound quality between a 2$ and 2000$ DAC.  So while I cannot exclude the DAC as the source of the sound difference, I do doubt it has so much influence.

Perhaps you're lucky and the iphone6 simply has a very good on board amplifier - I don't own one, I don't have access to one so I can't tell. All I can say is the sound from both my and laptop benefits immeasurably from using an external amplifier.

I read your previous post and I have to say that allowing your P9 to burn-in and let the driver coils flex better will improve the mid-bass hump a lot over time. When I had my B&W P3, the mid-bass hump kept getting smaller and smaller over time to the point that the hump became an articulate thump. I had well over 300 hours on it and the pads were tearing, begging me to use my extended warranty early:mad:, but I did use my store credit for more useful stuff, like cheaper Audioquest cables.

You don't even have to use your usual playlists to burn-in the P9, as I think pink noise loops will work just fine (use a portable amp or plug-in headphone amp with moderate volume for the pink noise loops). After all, all B&W headsets are known for some kind of mid-bass hump.

 

[ubs28]

If the P9 is not underpowered on an iPhone, then the P9 is not worth the money I guess then. The quality of the DAC is not the issue here because the B&W P9 gets beaten by the Shure SE846 with the same DAC.
 
I won't test out the Chord Mojo + B&W P9 then. Looks like I might have to check out the AKG K872.