[warrior05]

Well, folks. It is after 12:30 AM here and I need to call it a night. This thread has been enlightening to me but, unfortunately, mostly in a negative way. I appreciate those who have supported me both publicly and privately. I also appreciate those who differ with my opinion and did so by sticking with the facts and understanding my intent.

As for those who took my original post as some malicious intent to harm ALO's business - well, you are flat out wrong. Whether you believe that or not makes no difference to me because I know it.

I will not post to this thread anymore.

Peace out,

Warrior05

 

[epaludo]

That's the best you can do warrior05. I understand you and think you choose the best move once things aren't showing a good perspective in this thread.

I know you were not intent to hurt ALO, was just exposing a situation which i think is perfectly normal, both the exposal and the cable problem.

Everybody knows Ken can fix this, as he already posted before, so for keep both warrior05 and Ken reputation, i think we should slow this thread discussion a little bit.

We know problems can happen. It happened, was exposed and discussed. It's enough to me ...

 

[shplorgh]

What the hell?

Since when does someone have to consult with a manufacturer before they publicly air a complaint about their product? If products of questionable quality are being sold to customers, other potential customers have a right to know, regardless of the replacement policy.

 

[LawnGnome]

One thing people are failing to realize is:

Ken is an individual

ALO is a business

They are not the same, and should not be treated the same.

This thread is about ALO the company, NOT Ken the individual.

 

[Azure]

From what I've gathered, the point here seems to be informing Head-Fi users of a case of shoddy soldering (according to the OP as there aren't any pictures available) where shoddy soldering is not to be expected. That this might just be one isolated incident doesn't matter; what matters it that Ken saw this shoddy soldering and passed it on as ready to sell. It's great that the OP created this thread to inform us of this problem (and I'm surprised that Ken didn't seem to acknowledge anything wrong with shoddy soldering, especially when offering a premium product where shoddy soldering can be avoided).

Now, from what I've seen, it seems that the OP does not want to specifically fix the "issue" of a broken/not-to-par product. I can only guess that he wants to fix the "issue" of Ken not finding anything wrong with careless soldering/construction (Note: I will ASSUME that the OP's point is to INFORM and RECTIFY). How can this issue be fixed? Sending the product back to Ken for a replacement/repair would NOT solve this problem. However, informing Ken of this potential quality control problem would solve this issue. How can the OP inform Ken about this? Either privately or publicly. In both cases Ken would find out about the issues (and one would assume rectify the issue by watching his manufacturing with more scrutiny), but in one the OP would be informing others about these issues, which I think is a good thing. So, this leaves the OP with 2 choices (based on the assumption that it is good to inform others about these issues):

1. Do it publicly

2. Do it privately & publicly

If it was me, I'd had gone with #2 to make sure that the supposed poor soldering doesn't happen again, but #1 is still very effective. In the end, is there really much of a difference between #1 and #2 to warrant the huge negative reaction in this thread? The only good argument I can think of (please do inform me if you can think of something else; I may just be having a brain fart here) is that you'd get much better results with #2.

Of course, this is all assuming that the OP wants to rectify the issue (NOT the issue of a sub-par product, but the one of quality control). I'm also assuming that ALO is pretty much a one-man business where Ken manufactures all of the products.

 

[LawnGnome]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azure /img/forum/go_quote.gif From what I've gathered, the point here seems to be informing Head-Fi users of a case of shoddy soldering (according to the OP as there aren't any pictures available) where shoddy soldering is not to be expected. That this might just be one isolated incident doesn't matter; what matters it that Ken saw this shoddy soldering and passed it on as ready to sell. It's great that the OP created this thread to inform us of this problem (and I'm surprised that Ken didn't seem to acknowledge anything wrong with shoddy soldering, especially when offering a premium product where shoddy soldering can be avoided). Now, from what I've seen, it seems that the OP does not want to specifically fix the "issue" of a broken/not-to-par product. I can only guess that he wants to fix the "issue" of Ken not finding anything wrong with careless soldering/construction (Note: I will ASSUME that the OP's point is to INFORM and RECTIFY). How can this issue be fixed? Sending the product back to Ken for a replacement/repair would NOT solve this problem. However, informing Ken of this potential quality control problem would solve this issue. How can the OP inform Ken about this? Either privately or publicly. In both cases Ken would find out about the issues (and one would assume rectify the issue by watching his manufacturing with more scrutiny), but in one the OP would be informing others about these issues, which I think is a good thing. So, this leaves the OP with 2 choices (based on the assumption that it is good to inform others about these issues): 1. Do it publicly 2. Do it privately & publicly If it was me, I'd had gone with #2 to make sure that the supposed poor soldering doesn't happen again, but #1 is still very effective. In the end, is there really much of a difference between #1 and #2 to warrant the huge negative reaction in this thread? The only good argument I can think of (please do inform me if you can think of something else; I may just be having a brain fart here) is that you'd get much better results with #2. Of course, this is all assuming that the OP wants to rectify the issue (NOT the issue of a sub-par product, but the one of quality control). I'm also assuming that ALO is pretty much a one-man business where Ken manufactures all of the products.

Good post.

I think you nicely said how 1/2 the people here think.

 

[foo_me]

It's really not about 1 or 2,... it's about warrior5 ability to freely just say he had a bad experience with Ken/ALO. WHy can't he simply express that...I truly don't understand the problem with him just explaining his personal experience with it. IT's not like he said it's ALWAYS poor quality or EVERYONE has had problems with Ken. He explicitly said it was his own experience with ALO and that's it. Why can't people just take it as such with saying it was unfair? Since when did negative...possibly constructive criticism become such a problem with these forums?

So, is it such that people are not allowed to express negative experience with vendors? IF so, then if one has had a negative exprience with ALO, ray samuels, singlepower, etc...where does one do so except on these forums?

It seems absurd that these forums are just a place for positive comment! I just don't get it. Where do negative experiences go? I've had some....and I would like to have heard from others as well before I purchased from certain vendors.
Does head-fi serve it's members or vendors? honestly...as a member and I truly love this site and vendors and comments and all it contains...i think it should support not just positive comments on products but negative comments as well.

Perhaps, it will force/encourage vendors to improve their customer service...and in the long run, that truly serves the community as a whole.

I don't see that as a problem....

 

[mbriant]

Quote:

Originally Posted by foo_me It's really not about 1 or 2,... it's about warrior5 ability to freely just say he had a bad experience with Ken/ALO. WHy can't he simply express that...I truly don't understand the problem with him just explaining his personal experience with it...........So, is it such that people are not allowed to express negative experience with vendors?

Not allowed? If they weren't allowed, then why am I seeing a bunch of posts that are doing just that? I'm late to the party here, but having skimmed over the first couple of pages of posts, It seems to me that this thread is very much like most other "public complaint" threads. Someone complains about a product .... someone else defends the product .... this happens back and forth a few times .... then someone starts making generalized, exaggerated, and incorrect accusations that "head-fi", "the moderators", or the "community" won't allow someone to complain....when the very fact that the thread exists in the first place proves them wrong.

Then you get posts like the one I've quoted above asking "it's about warrior5 ability to freely just say he had a bad experience with Ken/ALO. WHy can't he simply express that..." ..... implying that he's not allowed to do so ... when again, he is and has. And if he's allowed to start a thread complaining about a product .... then why shouldn't others be allowed to respond as they see fit? Or does it only work one way? A member starts a public complaint thread, and nobody is allowed to express any opinion that isn't negative?

I also see some members accusing the "community" of doing this or doing that, when each member, on both sides of the argument, are part of the very same "community". Using that argument, one could just as easily accuse the community of constantly complaining as well. Take another look at the first 20 posts or so in this thread. You'll find, as usual, a cross section of opinions...not from "head-fi", not from "moderators", and not from the "community"..... They're from various, individual members, expressing their opinions. Isn't that what everyone wants?

I think a good part of the problem here, is that some members just like to argue, like to stir up trouble and create a problem, when there isn't one. Case in point: Quote:

Originally Posted by colonelkernel8 A further attack on your argument (yes, I feel "frisky" right now):

 

[swt61]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbriant /img/forum/go_quote.gif If they weren't allowed, then why am I seeing a bunch of posts that are doing just that? I'm late to the party here, but having skimmed over the first couple of pages of posts, It seems to me that this thread is very much like most other "public complaint" threads. Someone complains about a product .... someone else defends the product .... this happens back and forth a few times .... then someone starts complaining that "head-fi", "the moderators", or the "community" won't allow someone to complain....when the very fact that the thread exists in the first place proves them wrong. Then you get posts like the one I've quoted above asking "it's about warrior5 ability to freely just say he had a bad experience with Ken/ALO. WHy can't he simply express that..." ..... implying that he's not allowed to do so ... when again, he is and has. And if he's allowed to start a thread complaining about a product .... then why shouldn't others be allowed to respond as they see fit? Or does it only work one way? A member starts a public complaint thread, and nobody is allowed to express any opinion that isn't negative? I also see some members accusing the "community" of doing this or doing that, when each member, on both sides of the argument, are part of the very same "community". Using that argument, one could just as easily accuse the community of constantly complaining as well. Take another look at the first 20 posts or so in this thread. You'll find, as usual, a cross section of opinions...not from "head-fi", not from "moderators", and not from the "community"..... They're from various members, expressing their opinions. Isn't that what everyone wants? I think a good part of the problem here, is that some members just like to argue, like to stir up trouble and create a problem, when there isn't one. Case in point:

I agree completely with everything you just said, especially the last part about certain members looking for an argument, and fanning the flames. That's unfortunate, but it's going to happen.
Yesterday I got caught up in the heat of the battle, and took things too personally. I apologize to everyone for that.
I still believe that many were misrepresenting or misinterpreting what warrior an I said, but that's the nature of the beast. I do wish people would read through more carefully before replying, but hey again...
I still feel firm in my original opinions about expressing our concerns without needing to contact the manufacturer first in this incident (other incidents may warrant other actions), but I do respect any and all differing opinions. If I made you feel otherwise I apologize.

 

[elrod-tom]

foo_mee,

I think that you are missing the point...

Head-Fi is clearly a place where a negative experience with a vendor may be voiced. That this thread has not been deleted ought to stand as testimony to that. There have been PLENTY of other threads voicing similarly negative experiences with other vendors, and the only time they end up getting locked is when a few people make it impossible to have a semi-civil discussion.

What I suspect has most people in arms in this instance is that they feel like, in fairness, some opportunity should have been extended by the OP's to the vendor to try to recify a bad situation BEFORE taking the opportunity to post about it. Things happen in business, and most agree that it's the way that things are addressed when things do happen that matters. Had this all been addressed in this manner, our erstwhile poster could present a more balanced picture.

Now, what makes this situation unusual is that more than one party is involved, neither of whom appears interested in resolving the matter...but are perfectly comfortable posting about it. I think a lot of folks feel like there is something unfair about that, and it's not unexpected that it be questioned in some manner. That happens here more than it might at other sites because of the relationship that many of our members have with our vendors - they are small operators in a closely knit industry/hobby, and make a point to get to know folks.

Now as to whether the OP may freely voice his opinion, well, I don't see where anything has been deleted. The OP has not been sanctioned for his post. He made his post, and others simply disagreed with some or other aspect of what he posted about. What it appears that you would like to see is that he be allowed to post without having that post come under scrutiny by others who may feel like he's not being completely fair to the vendor. You want the "freedom" for folks to say whatever they like without consequence or response. That's not freedom, it's opinion by fiat...

So I guess what I'm saying is that I disagree with your premise that the OP was not able "to freely just say he had a bad experience" with a vendor. He was...and that others found his basis for doing so lacking in something does not mean that he was not able to voice his opinion freely.


EDIT: Ah, I see where mbriant has made a similar point with much greater economy of words. Such is the curse I labor under.

 

[elrod-tom]

Quote:

Originally Posted by swt61 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I agree completely with everything you just said, especially the last part about certain members looking for an argument, and fanning the flames. That's unfortunate, but it's going to happen. Yesterday I got caught up in the heat of the battle, and took things too personally. I apologize to everyone for that. I still believe that many were misrepresenting or misinterpreting what warrior an I said, but that's the nature of the beast. I do wish people would read through more carefully before replying, but hey again... I still feel firm in my original opinions about expressing our concerns without needing to contact the manufacturer first in this incident (other incidents may warrant other actions), but I do respect any and all differing opinions. If I made you feel otherwise I apologize.

I have a lot of respect for you for making that post...thank you for a thoughtful post. We do disagree about whether the manufacturer ought to have been given the opportunity to make things right prior to posting, which is not to say that if things were made right that one ought not post about it.

The internet affords us the opportunity to gather information from others' experiences that was not available in my youth. With that IMHO comes responsibility to ensure that we are being fair to the party in question. I'm not saying that was your intent, but that's how it came accross to some folks.

Thanks again for your post...

 

[Blitzula]

Quote:

Originally Posted by elrod-tom /img/forum/go_quote.gif We do disagree about whether the manufacturer ought to have been given the opportunity to make things right prior to posting...

I've read through this whole thread. Your posts have been very thoughtful, but Warrior and others have told you many, many different ways that the issue was the state of the cable when received. Whether Ken can make that right or not by shipping another cable is irrelevant, at that point the OP's problem has already occurred and can't be fixed, only mitigated. Shoddy workmanship (as the OP perceived) can't be changed once the product is received. What is unclear about that? You seem to just disregard it, I don't get it.

Now while ALO might still have been able to satisfy someone who received such a product, it doesn't mean the original issue won't be a problem for someone else...who may just prefer to receive the product in preferred condition in the first place, and not want to spend the time and effort involved (e-mails back and forth, making-and perhaps paying-for shipping arrangements, waiting for the product, etc.). So the OPs thoughts (which were diplomatic and reasonable) were certainly of value.

On the issue overall: ALO is a company, and subject to both critique and praise in threads. It's unfortunate that some equate the spirit of the community with not criticizing a vendor. They're running a business! That attitude leaves Head-Fi ripe for scams (as people can continually give the benefit of the doubt to someone who is manipulating them based on their "friend" or "good guy" perception-see Storm) and underreported customer service issues which some would like to know about.

We've got tons of praise threads around here. Threads that comment on satisfaction issues are of value also. We can discern whether we find the issues raised valid and make our purchasing decisions accordingly.

 

[unclejr]

Gentlemen, this is precisely why Al Gore invented the internet.

In a fit of insomnia I also read through the entire thread. I believe that ALO's reputation will remain solidly in tact despite one customer's very valid experience and notes. Were these grievances to be echoed by an overwhelming majority of customers, then we all might have cause to take another look, but for the time being I see very valid complaints from these guys to be just that. Man, it's not even a full beef, just a bit of one!

warrior05 + swt, it is overtly apparent to me that you have deliberated thoughtfully regarding the post, which was more respect than is usually afforded by most on the net.

In all of that mindset, it is yet again apparent that the echo chamber that is this segment of the internet can amplify (gain setting here is in the hundreds to thousands) any source signal good or bad well beyond its intended limits.

 

[slwiser]

In a small community that we have any negative comments no matter how relevant can have a major impact on a small enterprising individual. It can destroy their business. Experiences such as this can also have major impact on anyone thinking about starting a cottage business as well. This is especially true if it can be perceived that such comments are unfair in any way. It is possible that we just lost due to this thread the potential to have introduced several new products and that could have been very interesting. Who wants to be blind sided if something gets out that they normally would never allow.

Mistakes happen but some people just don't think we are human and do not allow for human interactions, nor desire them, thinking we are all nothing more than automatons or robots. Bureaucrats think like this, they have no judgment, it is either right or wrong, zero tolerance, rules are to be followed to the ultimate end, orders are to be follow verbatim. This type of thought was an excuse 70 years ago for some following orders. In todays world they may have gotten off since so many understand that type of thinking today. Bureaucratic thinking to me is the scariest thinking of all. In reality it is no thinking. The OP post, in my opinion, reflects the non-thinking bureaucrat.

 

[elrod-tom]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blitzula /img/forum/go_quote.gif I've read through this whole thread. Your posts have been very thoughtful, but Warrior and others have told you many, many different ways that the issue was the state of the cable when received. Whether Ken can make that right or not by shipping another cable is irrelevant, at that point the OP's problem has already occurred and can't be fixed, only mitigated. Shoddy workmanship (as the OP perceived) can't be changed once the product is received. What is unclear about that? You seem to just disregard it, I don't get it.

I understand all that...I don't disregard the issue as you state it at all. I only feel like, given that the above occurred, one would expect the manufacturer would replace what one assumes is a single bad cable with another. Hey, **** happens and when it does it's the way it's handled that IMHO (and obviously that of others) makes all the difference.

I think you will agree that, by taking steps to mitigate a problem, it paints the problem itself in a rather different light. Just as it would paint it in a different light had the vendor told a complaining owner to pound sand. In this instance, no opportunity to do so was given prior to the complaint, and some folks find that unfair. I mean, if it's not important enough to at least contact the vendor, then why even bother to post about it? I think that is what is essentially at issue here.

I don't know that anyone has made an assertion that there is some kind of global issue here, and it appears that this is largely an isolated incident. If in fact it turns out to be the case that there is a global problem with quality, we will know about it soon enough and will have this thread as a starting point. I don't think that it will.