Bi-wiring Made a Difference
Dec 24, 2006 at 9:23 PM Post #16 of 41
A few years ago I tried passive bi-amping with my B&W 602s3 & Rotel RMB-1075 (5 ch amp). It's very difficult to say that I heard an improvement because the time involved to do the cable switch.

Since then I've changed to using my Rotel to power 5 of my 6 main speakers and I've left the bi-wiring in place since I'de already spent the money on them...which is Audio Quest type 2, 4 lengths @ 15' each which I bought very cheap because at the time they were being discontinued at a local audio shop.

Being that the type 2 cable is not very heavy guage I feel there might be an advantage having 2 runs to each speaker. The cable has factory spade teminations.

What I did find to be an obvious upgrade is when I went from using my Denon 2802 receiver to amping with the Rotel. The power was roughly doubled and higher quality at that.
 
Dec 26, 2006 at 3:28 AM Post #18 of 41
According ot him:

"...Additional experiments with a Hall Effect probe revealed that high-current bass frequencies created a measurable field around the wires that expanded and collapsed with the signal. We believe that this dynamic field modulates the smaller signals, especially the very low level treble frequencies. With the high-current signal (Bass) separated from the low-current signal (Treble) this small signal modulation was eliminated as long as the cables were separated by at least an inch or two. (To keep the treble cable out of the field surrounding the bass cable.)..."

That is mainly what I have always seen that they claim, but well, in this case, all I can say, is that all bi-wiring cables that I have seen are inside the same sleeve and not 1 to 2 inches separate, and not even shielded...simply they use a 4 conductor cables inside usually the same jacket and run it to the speaker...Also how do you distribute the freqs that should reach each driver from the amp if you are using the same terminal and the crossover is inside the speaker, and filtering IMO happens inside the speaker and not outside, OTOH if you feed an external crossover, and from that crossover on you feed separately feed both drivers, then that would make more sense to me...
 
Dec 26, 2006 at 1:40 PM Post #19 of 41
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sovkiller /img/forum/go_quote.gif
That is mainly what I have always seen that they claim, but well, in this case, all I can say, is that all bi-wiring cables that I have seen are inside the same sleeve and not 1 to 2 inches separate, and not even shielded...simply they use a 4 conductor cables inside usually the same jacket and run it to the speaker


My LAT International biwire cable harness is not constructed in this way. Both the high frequency feed and the low frequency feed are "separate but equal" with their own cables and sheathing.

I guess what we are talking about (besides the availability of effectively doubles conductor) is the audible effect of high and low frequencies sharing (or not sharing) the entire speaker cable run. If we can agree that several important features of high end sound are clarity, accuracy, and small detail, then the interference effect of the strong bass signal in a combined speaker cable run seems a legitimate place to realize sound quality improvement without adding the complications of bi-amping.
 
Dec 26, 2006 at 1:47 PM Post #20 of 41
Quote:

Originally Posted by Old Pa /img/forum/go_quote.gif
My LAT International biwire cable harness is not constructed in this way. Both the high frequency feed and the low frequency feed are "separate but equal" with their own cables and sheathing.

I guess what we are talking about (besides the availability of effectively doubles conductor) is the audible effect of high and low frequencies sharing (or not sharing) the entire speaker cable run. If we can agree that several important features of high end sound are clarity, accuracy, and small detail, then the interference effect of the strong bass signal in a combined speaker cable run seems a legitimate place to realize sound quality improvement without adding the complications of bi-amping.



Now my other question is: why this effect does not affect the signal along the whole system, amp, signal low level cables, board traces, mic cables, etc....while all freq are mixed together all the time, and in a very low level, and now at the output while it is a lot stronger it makes a difference??? Is that this effect is only noticeable in strong output signals, which is the value then in which those anomalies could be quantify and heard???
 
Dec 26, 2006 at 2:09 PM Post #21 of 41
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sovkiller /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Now my other question is: why this effect does not affect the signal along the whole system, amp, signal low level cables, board traces, mic cables, etc....while all freq are mixed together all the time, and in a very low level, and now at the output while it is a lot stronger it makes a difference??? Is that this effect is only noticeable in strong output signals, which is the value then in which those anomalies could be quantify and heard???


Good (and obvious) question. I would only have speculation as to why there might be an audible difference. Such as, besides the suggestion of your quoted second sentence, that there might be an additional audible difference if the frequencies were separated earlier in the signal path but that bi-wiring or bi-amping is the only way (at the only signal path point) available for a non-technically sophisticated consumer to effect any separation of frequency pathes. And sometimes you gotta take what you can get.
 
Dec 26, 2006 at 2:28 PM Post #22 of 41
Quote:

Originally Posted by Old Pa /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Google "bi-wire by golly" for an article by SoundStage's Greg Weaver on bi-wiring.

Excerpt:
"Biwiring works by reducing of the tendency for strong bass signals to overwhelm the rest of the audio signal. The larger, more powerful bass signal can greatly affect the integrity of the much lower-energy components of both the midrange and fragile treble information. Running separate wires from the amplifier can have a profound impact on relieving the tweeter circuit from the back flush of EMF (elector-motive force) generated by the woofer. When the audio signal to the woofer ceases, such as when a loud bass note is finished, the woofer tries to stop moving. In trying to stop, it actually goes through a process of "settling" because it is too massive to just stop instantly. As it settles, it moves forward and backward repeatedly until it can completely come to rest. During this movement, as the voice coil is moving through the field of the magnet, it generates its own signal. That generated signal is sent backward up the woofer wires and into the crossover, where it corrupts the rest of the music signal."
I'm enjoyed a distinct audio improvement from bi-wiring.



In bi wiring the bass signal is still sent to both the woofer and the tweeter. the bass isn't removed until AFTER the wire when the xover removes it. only with an active xover will the wire not have to carry both the bass and the treble.

bi wiring should make no difference except to double the bad effects of the cable. maybe this will make your system sound nicer to your ears (since distortion doesn't always sound bad. see: tube amps)

To the OP, why not just run a short bit of speaker wire between the two sets of binding posts instead of using the brass bridge? this will give u the sole benefit of bi wiring, without doubling youre speaker wire cost, doubling your resistance and capacitance and inductance... and without looking silly
 
Dec 26, 2006 at 3:28 PM Post #23 of 41
Here is something I posted on another forum about this subject. It might be relant here . . .


********* begin copy of previous post ***********
Currently I have my b&W speakers biwired. I could not tell the difference in sound,
so didn't go to the trouble of making them single wired again.

In *theory* there is an advantage to biwiring. As somebody above pointed out, one of the reasons people cite for using biwiring is the potential problem due to "back emf" from one driver affecting another driver. When a speaker driver moves it can generate an electrical signal (much like a microphone does). Lets consider a possible situation. B&W recommends using a speaker wire with less than .1 ohm resistance. So, lets assume the speaker wire has .1 ohm resistance. We like to use amps with high damping factor, lets assume an 8 ohm speaker being used with an amp that has an 800 damping factor - i.e. the internal resistance of the amp is .01 ohm (as an aside note that any benefit of having extemely high damping factor for the amplifier is partially canceled by having to use speaker wires). Lets assume the bridging plate between LF and HF terminals of the speaker has resistance .01 ohm. In a biwire arrangement the back emf from one driver has to flow through the .1 ohm speaker wire, which reduces its amplitude, then most of it gets absorbed by the amp since it has much lower resistance than the wire to the other drivers (and of course the other drivers themselves). With a bridging plate the back emf from one driver is just .01 ohm and a crossover away from the other driver. So, more of that back emf will reach the other driver in a single wire configuration than in a biwire configuration. There are a couple of obvious weaknesses to this arguement; one is that back emf is very small to begin with compared to the amplifier signal. Another is that the resistance of the other driver is larger than the speaker wire so most of the back emf will go back to the amplifier anyway. But the fact remains, that in a biwire arrangement less of the back emf from one driver will reach the other drivers in the speaker (although this difference will be very small, sometimes, perhaps, small is enough).

Another argument sometimes made is that the voltage drop across the speaker wire due to large currents needed to drive a woofer will impact the sound of the midrange/tweeter. 20 amps flowing through .1 ohm speaker wire does result in a voltage drop of 2 volts - not huge, but easy to measure. Of course, a voltage drop at 40 hz (for example) should not effect the midrange/tweeter at all. But what about at the frequency near the crossover? Lets say the woofer crosses over to the midrange at 350 hz. At this frequency both drivers make sound and use energy. Perhaps voltage drop near the crossover frequency could effect one driver or the other. For example, lets say the amp was pushing 10 amps at 350 hz - the voltage drop across a single .1 ohm wire would be 1 volt, now instead if we biwire, and assume that half the current goes down one wire and half down the other wire, there is only a .5 volt drop. (of course if we just used both wires together the total drop would still be only .5 volts since the resistance of the doubled up wires would be half of a single wire - but maybe, just maybe, there could be some strange interaction between drivers at the crossover frequency that gave an advantage to a biwire arrangement - it is not completely impossible. . .)

To say that biwiring is EXACTLY the same as running a single wire then bridging the speaker terminals is just WRONG! If wires had zero resistance they would be exactly the same, but alas, all wire has some resistance. While I haven't tried it I am absolutely positive that if I hooked up a scope to each end of a speaker wire I could measure a voltage across that wire. I am also positive that if measured the voltage drop across a biwired speaker, each wire would measure a different voltage drop. What I'm not positive about is if the difference between the voltage drop across a single wire would be measurably different than the sum of the voltage drops across a biwired pair. There would be a difference, but I'm not sure how easily it could be measured - I guess it would depend on the sensitivity of your equipment, I'm sure it could be measured if somebody really wanted to try.

So why did I even bother trying biwiring? Well after 20 years my old speaker wire was getting somewhat corroded. Though I could (and did) clean it up, since I had just got new speakers and amp I decided what the heck I'll get some new wire as well. My wire of choice was canare 4s11 - it is relatively cheap, well made, and has decent gauge. It also has 4 conductors so trying out biwiring is simple. I'd read some things saying biwiring was better, and others saying it made no difference. I figured I try it for myself. I could not tell the difference between single and biwire, but, since I tried single wire first I just left it biwired. . .

I think maybe some people hear a difference between cables just because they went from an old partially corroded connection to a nice new clean conection (probably not a big deal at speaker voltages, but, certainly could be at phono cartiridge levels)

Perhaps Kal can have his measuring guy at sterophile see if a difference can be measured. Perhaps he has already tried and determined the difference is small and hopefully negligiable, perhaps he is afraid to try for reasons unknown.

There are people who think speakers wires sound different. I can see in this case that those people would want to select a wire that does "better in bass" for the bass driver, and a wire that does "better in midrange/HF" for those drivers. Once I thought I heard a difference in speaker wires, but, when I went back to try again I could not pick it out again - perhaps just switching wires (and at least partially cleaning the connection) made the difference, or maybe I'm just half deaf (wait I'm almost 50, have been listening to music for more than 40 years, so might actually be half deaf - tho last time I had it check I was normal for my age, there is no doubt that I do not hear some high frequencies I used to hear, which is normal)

It is ironic and unfortunate that by the time you can afford fast cars and great stereos, that your reaction times have gone down, and your hearing has degraded, so you cannot really enjoy either to there full potential . . . But I can still enjoy both to my full potential which is good enough I suppose.

********** end copy of previous post ***************

Some additions specific to this thread.

Maybe I did not hear a difference because my trebble and bass wires are
nearly colocated (I use the canare quad wire). Perhaps if I'd have used seperate wires I'd notice a difference (but to be honest I doubt it)

While voltage is applied equally at the amplifier end of the wires, the crossover at the end of those wires prevents current from flowing except in the frequencies the speakers will use. It is current flow that drives the speakers, and, any emf that might influence sound.

In the end I continue to think that wires make very little difference in sound, unless the wire is somehow defective, or specifically tuned with excess capacitance or inductance.
 
Dec 26, 2006 at 3:47 PM Post #24 of 41
Quote:

Originally Posted by Old Pa /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Good (and obvious) question. I would only have speculation as to why there might be an audible difference. Such as, besides the suggestion of your quoted second sentence, that there might be an additional audible difference if the frequencies were separated earlier in the signal path but that bi-wiring or bi-amping is the only way (at the only signal path point) available for a non-technically sophisticated consumer to effect any separation of frequency pathes. And sometimes you gotta take what you can get.


Pretty convincing...eh?...
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Dec 26, 2006 at 3:50 PM Post #25 of 41
Quote:

Originally Posted by hugz /img/forum/go_quote.gif
In bi wiring the bass signal is still sent to both the woofer and the tweeter. the bass isn't removed until AFTER the wire when the xover removes it. only with an active xover will the wire not have to carry both the bass and the treble.

bi wiring should make no difference except to double the bad effects of the cable. maybe this will make your system sound nicer to your ears (since distortion doesn't always sound bad. see: tube amps)

To the OP, why not just run a short bit of speaker wire between the two sets of binding posts instead of using the brass bridge? this will give u the sole benefit of bi wiring, without doubling youre speaker wire cost, doubling your resistance and capacitance and inductance... and without looking silly



Exactly my point, in bi-wiring what you actually do, is just placing a longer jumper betweeen the two connections, how longer? Well, the size of the wire between the amp and speaker and multiplied by 2...
wink.gif
 
Dec 26, 2006 at 4:35 PM Post #26 of 41
If you don't believe there is any difference in wire then of course bi-wiring can make no difference. The difference between bi-wiring and other cable tweaks is at least there is a theoretical difference. Sovkiller, try drawing a speaker wiring diagram, but, replace the wire by a low value resistor (after all ALL wire have some resistance). Can you now see that there MIGHT be some difference? p.s. if you have bi-wirable speakers, you might want to open them up - you should find two completely seperate filters, a low pass for the woofer, and a high pass for the mid-tweeter - if they were not seperate you would not need a shorting bar.
Like I said, I couldn't hear the difference when I tried, but maybe my ears are bad, or, in my particular situation it made no difference. Based on the theoretical possibility for a difference, it would not surprise me if some people could tell this difference in some equipment.
 
Dec 26, 2006 at 5:05 PM Post #27 of 41
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sovkiller /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Exactly my point, in bi-wiring what you actually do, is just placing a longer jumper betweeen the two connections


True, but not quite. You are also connecting the middle of that long wire to the terminals of the amp. Remember ALL wires have resistance, capacitance, and inductance. Sure they are small values, and based upon our current undertanding should make no difference - but they might for some people with some equipment. If you replace wires by a small value resistor then at least can see the possibility for a sonic difference.
(if you listen to speakers, and have a high damping factor amp, and can draw a simple circut diagram, try inserting a .1 ohm resistor instead of a wire between your speakers and amplifier - what does that do to your damping factor?)
My point is that biwiring speakers is NOT the same as single wire to speaker except in a theoretical world where wires can be ignored.
I can't hear the difference, but it might exist, maybe.

Edit, one last thought; the other difference between speaker wires and internal wiring is the current they have to carry, and how long they are. There is a difference in current flow (and hence voltage drop) between feeding 1 volt into a 50Kohm load, and putting 80 volts into a 8 ohm load. I like to keep my cables short, but if cables make no difference why would I do that?
 
Dec 26, 2006 at 5:47 PM Post #28 of 41
Quote:

Originally Posted by dknightd /img/forum/go_quote.gif
True, but not quite. You are also connecting the middle of that long wire to the terminals of the amp. Remember ALL wires have resistance, capacitance, and inductance. Sure they are small values, and based upon our current undertanding should make no difference - but they might for some people with some equipment. If you replace wires by a small value resistor then at least can see the possibility for a sonic difference.
(if you listen to speakers, and have a high damping factor amp, and can draw a simple circut diagram, try inserting a .1 ohm resistor instead of a wire between your speakers and amplifier - what does that do to your damping factor?)
My point is that biwiring speakers is NOT the same as single wire to speaker except in a theoretical world where wires can be ignored.
I can't hear the difference, but it might exist, maybe.

Edit, one last thought; the other difference between speaker wires and internal wiring is the current they have to carry, and how long they are. There is a difference in current flow (and hence voltage drop) between feeding 1 volt into a 50Kohm load, and putting 80 volts into a 8 ohm load. I like to keep my cables short, but if cables make no difference why would I do that?



The length of the cable, same as crossed section (thickenss) is proportinal to the resistance, inductance, capacitance, etc, of the conductor, that is a fact proved by physical laws, and science. There is no law that proves the bi-wiring effect, at all, otherwise we did not have this discussion now. Everytime that there is a discussion in audio circles, is just becasue someone try to make others believe (after believing themselves) in something that has not been proved and with no evidence to offer other than "I hear the differences", argument that is not too solid IMO, even less while there is principle that may prove the opposite, the superposition principle.


Also keep in mind that sometimes the biwiring will lead to double the size of the conductors in thickness, what may or not be be a factor to consider as well....and sometimes people replace conductors by completelly different ones, different materials, geometries, construction, lengh, terminations, etc...how to compare then in those cases apples with oranges???

My small monitors are not biwireable, and honestly if they do, I would not bother to try it anyway, to me is absurd to even think on that......but what do we know????....just my two cents...
 
Dec 26, 2006 at 7:25 PM Post #30 of 41
Quote:

Originally Posted by dknightd /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Sov, just draw the wiring diagram including impedance of the wire. Now tell me there is no POTENTIAL difference.


What for??? My speakers are not even biwirable...!!!
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You stated that you don't hear the difference, and want me to prove what nobody have been able to prove till now??? That is funny....please do the diagram yourself, and try to prove that yourself using numbers. Select any crossover from the market, and use any two drivers, and if you do, please let us know, as in this case we are discussing here in vane!!! You have proved what have been discussed for years, and you will end the discussion...again nobody discuss what have been proved already!!! The problem is that nobody till now have been able to physically prove that, other that using the same bold argument that "I hear the differences"...!!!
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