Beyerdynamic T1's and Sound Cards

[flaming_june]

It's headphone sound card
 
or headphone amp dac source
 
Whole point of dac/amp is to bypass via digi out, which is either spdif via mobo or sound card, or coaxial if your sound card has it.
 
You don't amp it twice. 
 
Wait, also usb, but that's an option I never explored so I forgot about it.

 

[DirectAssault]

  It's headphone sound card
 
or headphone amp dac source
 
Whole point of dac/amp is to bypass via digi out, which is either spdif via mobo or sound card, or coaxial if your sound card has it.
 
You don't amp it twice. 
 
Wait, also usb, but that's an option I never explored so I forgot about it.

 
 
So out of the three options: spdif, coaxial, and usb. Which would be best.
 
Also, I am then to understand that you must always get a DAC/AMP and not one or the other? Unless the impedence on the headphones is so low that it doesn't require one. Correct?

 

[PurpleAngel]

  So out of the three options: spdif, coaxial, and usb. Which would be best.
Also, I am then to understand that you must always get a DAC/AMP and not one or the other? Unless the impedance on the headphones is so low that it doesn't require one. Correct?

 
S/PDIF (optical & coaxial) will work with sound cards.
USB bypasses sound cards.
 
The analog audio signal output (line-output) from a DAC is not really intended for driving headphones, but it does work "decently" for driving low impedance headphones sometimes.
The analog audio signal from a line-output can have an impedance as high as 100-Ohms.
Where as quality headphone amplifier will have an output impedance of 10-Ohms or less.

 

[DirectAssault]

   
S/PDIF (optical & coaxial) will work with sound cards.
USB bypasses sound cards.
 
The analog audio signal output (line-output) from a DAC is not really intended for driving headphones, but it does work "decently" for driving low impedance headphones sometimes.
The analog audio signal from a line-output can have an impedance as high as 100-Ohms.
Where as quality headphone amplifier will have an output impedance of 10-Ohms or less.

 
 
 You make it sound like output impedance is something bad; I was with the understanding that a high-impedance headphone just means it requires more power in order to drive them.
 
Also, any benefits on going optical over coaxial or vice-versa
 
I'd still like any additional recommendations over a higher-end sound card. (would be fine getting a meh sound card with a meh dac and amp as log as its a reasonable budget)

 

[Super MANSKITO]

I would strongly recomend you look into the Objective 02 amp/dac.   The amp and dac have a fantastic story, you should google it. Depending on how you view the world this might be the last dac/amp you ever need to buy.  The designer of the amp is not allowed to be talked about here and is refered to as HE WHO MUST NOT BE NAMED.  What I can tell you the designer is an electrical engineer and used an objective science bassed apporach to makeing the amp.    I currently use an objective amp to power my T1s and HE-500s.  
 
You can buy it pre built here priced reasonably close to your price point at $270 for both.  
 
http://www.jdslabs.com/products/48/o2-odac-combo/
 
Or just the amp for below your budget for $129
 
http://www.jdslabs.com/products/35/objective2-headphone-amplifier/
 
My brother actually has a creative sound blaster card in his PC, it drives the T1s ok, but IMO its worth considering the Objective amp/dac. I can subjectively say it performs well vs my brothers sound card, a maverick audio D1 amp/dac and 1k+ burson audio amp.  I have even briefly heard a ~$5000 mcintosh amp when I went for a trip to NYC last week. 
 
The sound card should have enough power however you won't get a perfectly silent background, aka when you turn up the volume there will be a hiss, the objective amp is perfectly silent no hiss what so ever and trust me that is rare for any amp at any price.   Also the sound card will get loud but maybe IMO ( I love loud metal music at ear damageing rock concert levels) not loud enough. 
 
Finally keep in mind that the headphones do 90% if not 99% of the magic.  Your sound wont change too much unless the amp is under powered or super distorted.   
 
No matter what you do google the Objective 02 amp and its story, its very polarizeing here at head-fi and been the subject of much debate.  Its worth a read. 

 

[DirectAssault]

 
No matter what you do google the Objective 02 amp and its story, its very polarizeing here at head-fi and been the subject of much debate.  Its worth a read. 

 
You wouldn't happen to have a specific link handy would you?
 
Though I am taking everyones suggestions into consideration I always do my own research, but if there is something I should read then I am all ears. ( or eyes I guess )
 

 My brother actually has a creative sound blaster card in his PC, it drives the T1s ok, but IMO its worth considering the Objective amp/dac. I can subjectively say it performs well vs my brothers sound card, a maverick audio D1 amp/dac and 1k+ burson audio amp.  I have even briefly heard a ~$5000 mcintosh amp when I went for a trip to NYC last week. 

 
What sound card does your brother have by chance. And could you kindly tell me your subjective story on what it was like to put the headphones to different amps and things and if the $5000 was worth the price and such.
 
 

 The sound card should have enough power however you won't get a perfectly silent background, aka when you turn up the volume there will be a hiss, the objective amp is perfectly silent no hiss what so ever and trust me that is rare for any amp at any price.   Also the sound card will get loud but maybe IMO ( I love loud metal music at ear damageing rock concert levels) not loud enough. 

 
Alright that sounds convincing, but I dont listen to teribly loud music (though I often listen to the same genre as you, I prefer a modest volume).
 
 
Would you recommend running the O2+ODAC combo through a sound card (of any quality) over running it through the mobo itself?

 

[PurpleAngel]

  You make it sound like output impedance is something bad; I was with the understanding that a high-impedance headphone just means it requires more power in order to drive them.
Also, any benefits on going optical over coaxial or vice-versa
I'd still like any additional recommendations over a higher-end sound card. (would be fine getting a meh sound card with a meh dac and amp as log as its a reasonable budget)

 
For best audio quality, is preferred (but not required) to have the headphones have 8 to 10 times (or more) of the impedance of whatever source the headphones are plugged into.
 
The higher the impedance of the headphone "usually" means it needs more voltage to drive it,
but there are headphones like the 62-Ohm AKG 7XX series, which seem to need just as much (if not more) power as some 300-Ohm headphones.
 
I believe companies like Schiit recommend for best audio quality, coaxial > optical > USB.
Where as with my Audio-GD, USB is recommended for best audio quality.
I really doubt for your uses, you could tell a difference between optical or coaxial.

 

[DirectAssault]

  I really doubt for your uses, you could tell a difference between optical or coaxial.

 
You are perhaps correct, but its always good to know.

 

[PurpleAngel]

Would you recommend running the O2+ODAC combo through a sound card (of any quality) over running it through the mobo itself?

 
As the ODAC comes with a USB input, it can not work with computer sound card (built in or add-on).

 

[Super MANSKITO]

Google: objective 02 blog. We seriously cant talk about him here or link to his blog.  
 
My brother sound card is this one.  Its the older creative X-FI sound cards, still very much in line with there newer stuff or any high end sound card for that matter. 
 
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829102019
 
IMO, subjectively,the sound of the all the different amps that I have heard varries a little bit. Read not alot, but a little.  After a certian point you very quickly run into diminishing returns for your momeny.  It most certianly asymptotes very rapiadly towards 0% net gain in terms of sound quaility after a certian point.  I would never buy a $5000 or $1000 amp for that matter if sound quaility was my only  consideration.  I own almost $3K worth of audio gear if that gives you any idea of how much I love audio, I have no problem spending money when I think it will gain me performance, even small gains are worth big bucks to me. However IMO changes in sound for the better or worse have way more to do with the Headphones or speakers rather then the amp. 
 
Subjectively the Objective 02 sounds blacker then night, (meaning that there is no hiss what so ever) has lots of power, (more then you will ever use on the T1s) and is hyper fast and detailed and ultra netural.  If something could sound like some one desgined it with math and leasers thats what it sounds like, totally transparrent.  This amp is very much in line with the idea of a "wire with gain".  It adds nothing what so ever to the sound.  The sound you hear is your DAC and headphones,( thats if you only have the amp, if you buy both amp/dac all you hear is how your headphones sound) the amp is an invisable volume knob. Compared to other amps this is unique the other amps impart some sort of flavor to the sound, it can be good or bad but it is always almost very small one way or the other. 
 
I would recomend not only getting the AMP and DAC but also spending a little more to get the one with the 1/4 inch jack and RCA out-puts so you can use the dac for a speaker amp if you have one.  It wont be better it terms of SQ but it will be more conviennent and look neater on your desk with less messy wires. Also they do leaser ingraveing on the limited edition.

 

[Super MANSKITO]

   
As the ODAC comes with a USB input, it can not work with computer sound card (built in or add-on).

true but if he gets O2amp/dac he wont need a sound card in the first place.  Also he can use the USB  for his headphones when SQ matters and the sound card for surround sound or audio caputre if he needs thoose features. 

 

[Errymoose]

USB implementations are supposed to be pretty good now, so whichever will be fine.  I've never really tried to compare the differences, I just use USB out of convenience, and it sounds good enough to me.
 
So it goes back to, do you need a soundcard to do surround sound processing or anything for headphones?  If so, you want a sound card and spdif/coaxial to your dac, if not USB is fine and easiest as you obviously don't need a sound card.

 

[DirectAssault]

  USB implementations are supposed to be pretty good now, so whichever will be fine.  I've never really tried to compare the differences, I just use USB out of convenience, and it sounds good enough to me.
 
So it goes back to, do you need a soundcard to do surround sound processing or anything for headphones?  If so, you want a sound card and spdif/coaxial to your dac, if not USB is fine and easiest as you obviously don't need a sound card.

 
supposed to be pretty good isn't a comforting statement.
 
The sound card is also suppose to take a load off the CPU for sound processing and increases frame rate and sound quality for a lot of gaming applications. (maybe miniscule amount of frame, but 5 fps is 5 fps). And considering the games I play makes benefit of positioning when it comes to sound I will likely need it for surround sound processing (even if its virtual surround sound).
 
Chances are I will need a amp/dac that has the appropriate jacks.

 

[Super MANSKITO]

supposed to be pretty good isn't a comforting statement.

The sound card is also suppose to take a load off the CPU for sound processing and increases frame rate and sound quality for a lot of gaming applications. (maybe miniscule amount of frame, but 5 fps is 5 fps). And considering the games I play makes benefit of positioning when it comes to sound I will likely need it for surround sound processing (even if its virtual surround sound).

Chances are I will need a amp/dac that has the appropriate jacks.

I'm a PC gammer too, you most certainly won't get 5fps because of a sound card. In very rare instances you might get 1 or 2fps AT BEST. I play alot of fps games counter strike being my favorite and if you know anything about that game audio is super important.

My PC is 4770k, 32gigs of ram, 7970 and I game at 2560x1440.

The increase in your audio experience by an external amp/dac is more then made up for in any decrease I FPS however you wont see any decease in performance.

Notice how very rarely when they do benchmarking for gpus do they ever have a sound card in system, reason being it just doesn't matter. If your worried about performance to that degree $200 invested into a better GPU or CPU or some other PC sub system will net MUCH greater results then a sound card.

Sound cards dont increase the performance by a reasonable amount or for that matter even a noticeable amount, they do increase SQ but external AMPs/dacs do that better.

I speak from personal experience

USB is actually the BEST interface for digital audio.

 

[DirectAssault]

I am sorry mate, but I've tested this on my own rig and and i get anywhere from 2-5 additional fps with the addition of the sound card. (the variation is game dependent)
 
I don't understand why you don't but It doesn't really matter.
 
I do not understand why you have that much RAM. I can only assume it is overkill if you don't do any virtualization or use graphics rendering software.
 
But this is off topics. and the point is that I do see an increase in performance in my current rig.
 
However, I would like to hear your argument about why USB is the best interface.