[marios_mar]

Well, actually I am not trying to start a VS thread. But here is what I am looking for:

I am looking for a great headphone up to 600 euro used. I appreciate the Sennheiser mids.

I currently own a pair of HD650s and a pair of DT770 pro. I like the low bass impact of the Beyer's but I feel like their mids are recessed. I understand that they are not as refined as the HD650s and as detailed and the mids of the 650s are much richer and detailed. I don't particularly enjoy the bass cutoff of the Senns.

I used to have a HD800 and it was the perfect headphone for me. I enjoyed the bass out of it and the texture as well as the mids. But 800s are out of my budget now.

So since I like the lively Beyer 770 signature, I thought maybe the T1 would be similar in bass impact and range and maybe the mids would be less recessed and a better match to the Sennheisers.

The grado RS1 I used to own (buttoned version) and they are a nice option although they can be not as comfortable to wear. I remember their mids were niceley pronounced and they are as lively as the Beyers.

About the HD660s, I used to own 600s, 580s as well and I believe they will be not too far from the Sennheiser HD6xx recipe and I'd rather not have the veil. I just want the great mids.

With that said, what do you think I should rather buy?

 

[SilverEars]

Well, actually I am not trying to start a VS thread. But here is what I am looking for:

I am looking for a great headphone up to 600 euro used. I appreciate the Sennheiser mids.

I currently own a pair of HD650s and a pair of DT770 pro. I like the low bass impact of the Beyer's but I feel like their mids are recessed. I understand that they are not as refined as the HD650s and as detailed and the mids of the 650s are much richer and detailed. I don't particularly enjoy the bass cutoff of the Senns.

I used to have a HD800 and it was the perfect headphone for me. I enjoyed the bass out of it and the texture as well as the mids. But 800s are out of my budget now.

So since I like the lively Beyer 770 signature, I thought maybe the T1 would be similar in bass impact and range and maybe the mids would be less recessed and a better match to the Sennheisers.

The grado RS1 I used to own (buttoned version) and they are a nice option although they can be not as comfortable to wear. I remember their mids were niceley pronounced and they are as lively as the Beyers.

About the HD660s, I used to own 600s, 580s as well and I believe they will be not too far from the Sennheiser HD6xx recipe and I'd rather not have the veil. I just want the great mids.

With that said, what do you think I should rather buy?

If you have the 650, forget about the 660S. In a certain part of the mids spectrum, it's blunted, and sound more blended due to the blunted mids, lacking some dynamics compared to the 300 ohm ones.

Which DT770 Pro do you have? I know 250 ohm is an improvment over the 80 ohm. Also, two DT770 may sound different in the mids. I heard one that was mids recessed like AKG K7 headphones over another. I think also, having HD650 as alternative will provide some polarizing experience as well.

HD800 is genre limited IMO. If you listen to Jazz and electronic, superb, but the response has a bit peaky treble and upper-mids recession that pulls the vocals back, polarizing from HD6-- series. Superb sound stage, but sounds diffused in the mids, and therefore a bit fuzzy there.

Grados can be good if you are into emphasized upper-mids. I do have the 325e and find them to be a terrific value. Not for those needing ample bass.

It's hard to find the best of everything in this hobby. I want good bass and good mids and treble as well. lol

 

[marios_mar]

I have the 250ohm version of the 770s. The HD800 I enjoyed the mids to be honest. And it was pretty much perfect. The bass was the deepest I've heard along with my STAX, just with more impact. So I wondered how the T1 would be in comparison.

 

[kman1211]

The T1.2 I found to be very versatile across genres, in fact one of the best I’ve come across for all types of music. May not be as energetic as you’re expecting though. I have a T1.2 Black and a HD 6XX and I find the T1.2 better across more Genres, the HD 6XX does have richer mids but the T1.2 has more bass and deeper reaching bass, it’s mids are a bit less present but not recessed like the DT 770. Refinement and detail on the T1 is a step above the HD 650 and it’s imaging is notably better and more 3D and rounded.

 

[Shane D]

Well, actually I am not trying to start a VS thread. But here is what I am looking for:

I am looking for a great headphone up to 600 euro used. I appreciate the Sennheiser mids.

I currently own a pair of HD650s and a pair of DT770 pro. I like the low bass impact of the Beyer's but I feel like their mids are recessed. I understand that they are not as refined as the HD650s and as detailed and the mids of the 650s are much richer and detailed. I don't particularly enjoy the bass cutoff of the Senns.

I used to have a HD800 and it was the perfect headphone for me. I enjoyed the bass out of it and the texture as well as the mids. But 800s are out of my budget now.

So since I like the lively Beyer 770 signature, I thought maybe the T1 would be similar in bass impact and range and maybe the mids would be less recessed and a better match to the Sennheisers.

The grado RS1 I used to own (buttoned version) and they are a nice option although they can be not as comfortable to wear. I remember their mids were niceley pronounced and they are as lively as the Beyers.

About the HD660s, I used to own 600s, 580s as well and I believe they will be not too far from the Sennheiser HD6xx recipe and I'd rather not have the veil. I just want the great mids.

With that said, what do you think I should rather buy?

I can talk around your points but not exactly to them.

1) I bought the Grado SR325e's several years ago. Fun, but bright. Sold them and got the GH2's. All the fun without the noise. My favourite headphone. Can seem a little bass shy sometimes, but I have different amps. Also, I occasionally insert the Schiit Loki in the chain to add some bass.

2) I bought (used) Beyerdynamic T5p.2's about a year ago. I wouldn't call them bright, but maybe a little dry. Very accurate and a bit bass shy, to me. I would tire of them within a couple of hours listening. And then I made two discoveries: A) Schiit Loki - add some bass, a dash of mids and pull back a bit of treble. Very enjoyable.
B) Cavalli LCX. Almost tube-like. Warm and fuzzy. Ideal for rounding off those sharp edges.
Now my second favourite headphones.

3) HD58X's. Cheap to buy and I bought mine used. A great cheap all rounder. Many reviewers say it is close to the HD660's at one third of the price. (A couple of years ago I bought the HD6XX's and was not at all impressed. I found them flat and boring. And they were SO open that you needed almost a sealed room to listen to them.)
My best value headphone, by far. I actually just bought the Fidelio X2HR's to compare against these. The X2HR's are now for sale. Buying these used I saved enough to also buy an XLR cable for them.

Not sure if this helps you much, but it has been my experience. My music is new rock, some classic rock, horn jazz and blues.

Shane D

 

[SilverEars]

The T1.2 I found to be very versatile across genres, in fact one of the best I’ve come across for all types of music. May not be as energetic as you’re expecting though. I have a T1.2 Black and a HD 6XX and I find the T1.2 better across more Genres, the HD 6XX does have richer mids but the T1.2 has more bass and deeper reaching bass, it’s mids are a bit less present but not recessed like the DT 770. Refinement and detail on the T1 is a step above the HD 650 and it’s imaging is notably better and more 3D and rounded.

I heard the T1.2. What an underwhelming headphone marketed as 'TOTL' Beyer. It doesn't deserved to be called TOTL or flagship. I really have no idea given it's avg performance.

It has a typical Beyerdynamic recessed upper-mids with treble emphasized definition. You can tell that the definition is missing some harmonics due to the uneven response. Therefore, I can't say this headphone defines sounds all that well or sound accurate. The bass was underwhelming as well. Doesn't really have the tightness or definition of TOTL bass, just rounded usual bass. If I were to get a Beyer, I would be perfectly fine with DT770, in which T1.2 isn't much of a step up and with DT770 closed, it's practical and not bad sounding for a closed. I've compared several DT770 and I realized I had one set that had unusually better upper mids, and in general treble, but DT770 like others still suffer the Beyer tuning. I guess it's a flavor that I imagine it as a U response.

With Beyers, what I really dislike when I notice mids recession with certain tracks. Then it's too obvious that there's tonal issues. I'm sorry, but my OCD detects this.

In a positive note, the treble wasn't as damaging to the ear as I expected. When you look at measurements, they look dangerous for your hearing. It doesn't seem to pierce your ears like how it's shown, but just shows uneven-ness in how the treble is expressed and harmonics are transitioned.

 

[kman1211]

I heard the T1.2. What an underwhelming headphone marketed as 'TOTL' Beyer. It doesn't deserved to be called TOTL or flagship. I really have no idea given it's avg performance.

It has a typical Beyerdynamic recessed upper-mids with treble emphasized definition. You can tell that the definition is missing some harmonics due to the uneven response. Therefore, I can't say this headphone defines sounds all that well or sound accurate. The bass was underwhelming as well. Doesn't really have the tightness or definition of TOTL bass, just rounded usual bass. If I were to get a Beyer, I would be perfectly fine with DT770, in which T1.2 isn't much of a step up and with DT770 closed, it's practical and not bad sounding for a closed. I've compared several DT770 and I realized I had one set that had unusually better upper mids, and in general treble, but DT770 like others still suffer the Beyer tuning. I guess it's a flavor that I imagine it as a U response.

With Beyers, what I really dislike when I notice mids recession with certain tracks. Then it's too obvious that there's tonal issues. I'm sorry, but my OCD detects this.

In a positive note, the treble wasn't as damaging to the ear as I expected. When you look at measurements, they look dangerous for your hearing. It doesn't seem to pierce your ears like how it's shown, but just shows uneven-ness in how the treble is expressed and harmonics are transitioned.

The T1.2 its a subtle step up from things such as the DT 1990, Amiron Home, etc. Rather it’s more subtle and it’s a headphone I find you appreciate with more listening time. It’s not a perfect headphone and no it doesn’t reach the level other headphones can, which is why it’s often so cheap compared to other totl headphones. It is a bit u-shaped but my ears prefer that type of sound personally, the HD 6XX comes across as a bit hard and brash due to its upper mids. The T1.2 is not the best Beyer I’ve own, which is my DT 480 which does not have recessed upper mids, more even treble, resolves far more detail, and is far tighter in its overall sound.

 

[SilverEars]

The T1.2 its a subtle step up from things such as the DT 1990, Amiron Home, etc. Rather it’s more subtle and it’s a headphone I find you appreciate with more listening time. It’s not a perfect headphone and no it doesn’t reach the level other headphones can, which is why it’s often so cheap compared to other totl headphones. It is a bit u-shaped but my ears prefer that type of sound personally, the HD 6XX comes across as a bit hard and brash due to its upper mids. The T1.2 is not the best Beyer I’ve own, which is my DT 480 which does not have recessed upper mids, more even treble, resolves far more detail, and is far tighter in its overall sound.

I guess we just have different tonal response we prefer. I like detailed and up-front mids. I know Harman isn't agreeable with all, but upper-mids being pulled up is agreeable to my ears. The issue I have is, the DIY rigs, and MIniDSP Ears providing inaccurate responses, and not knowing how accurate the measurement results really are.

 

[kman1211]

I guess we just have different tonal response we prefer. I like detailed and up-front mids. I know Harman isn't agreeable with all, but upper-mids being pulled up is agreeable to my ears. The issue I have is, the DIY rigs, and MIniDSP Ears providing inaccurate responses, and not knowing how accurate the measurement results really are.

I think it is, I’m sensitive to upper mids, with a few exceptions it generally needs to be toned down a bit so it doesn’t bother my ears. I do enjoy prominent upper mids at times, but most of the headphones with it become grating and since I often listen to headphones hours on end I have to focus on long term listening comfort and oddly the T1.2 is the best headphone I’ve found for this. Yeah that is a problem, especially with treble measurements and I can tell you already I’ve heard two very different sounding T1.2’s(one being painful bright), which may also influence measurements some if there are different sounding pairs floating around or they did a silent revision at some point. But I would like to see measurements of a T1.2 on proper measurement rig.

 

[SilverEars]

I think it is, I’m sensitive to upper mids, with a few exceptions it generally needs to be toned down a bit so it doesn’t bother my ears. I do enjoy prominent upper mids at times, but most of the headphones with it become grating and since I often listen to headphones hours on end I have to focus on long term listening comfort and oddly the T1.2 is the best headphone I’ve found for this. Yeah that is a problem, especially with treble measurements and I can tell you already I’ve heard two very different sounding T1.2’s, which may also influence measurements some if there are different sounding pairs floating around or they did a silent revision at some point. But I would like to see measurements of a T1.2 on proper measurement rig.

It may also be music choices as well. I prefer 600 and 650 due to some blunting being done in the presence region on the 660S as Tyll calls them as I find that that's a region where supporting harmonic sounds come from, and thus better details. Perhaps people into metal do not like such rise in upper-mids? Just a guess. I can honestly say for rock, I did find HD650 response nicely enhanced, and older recordings with recessed mids were better heard. Metal being specialized rock, and maybe different than type of rock I listened to.

 

[kman1211]

It may also be music choices as well. I prefer 600 and 650 due to some blunting being done in the presence region as Tyll calls them as I find that that's a region where supporting harmonic sounds come from, and thus better details. Perhaps people into metal do not like such rise in upper-mids? Just a guess.

I find there is some blunting in the HD 600/650 too. I do find the HD 6xx do emphasize some detail. I listen to most anything but the focus is mostly classical, soundtrack, folk, and electronic music. Metal in my experience usually doesn’t like extra energy in mid/upper treble as it can make it sound extra bitey and sibilant as metal tends to be recorded hot. Upper mid energy tends to be fine in my experience. I actually like the HD 6xx series with metal.

 

[SilverEars]

I find there is some blunting in the HD 600/650 too. I do find the HD 6xx do emphasize some detail. I listen to most anything but the focus is mostly classical, soundtrack, folk, and electronic music. Metal in my experience usually doesn’t like extra energy in mid/upper treble as it can make it sound extra bitey and sibilant as metal tends to be recorded hot. Upper mid energy tends to be fine in my experience.

The way I see it is the way the details are presented by both, and where the details are being shown. Beyers do have bite, but it comes from the peaks, and it's not gradual transition is the problem. It causes inconsistencies in the frequency change-overs (causing treble artifacts), but also the peaks cause recession to be more noticeable. I agree at least the HD650 should have more bite to the sound, but I think the 600 better colored in this respect.

 

[kman1211]

The way I see it is the way the details are presented by both, and where the details are being shown. Beyers do have bite, but it comes from the peaks, and it's not gradual is the problem. It causes inconsistencies in the frequency change-overs, but also the peaks cause recession to be more noticeable. I agree at least the HD650 should have more bite to the sound, but I think the 600 better colored in this respect.

The HD 650 does need a bit more bite and honestly more effortlessness. Yet despite the T1.2’s recession and peaks it’s a more effortless driver and somewhat more detailed as a whole(not as much as you would expect from a flagship though) than the HD 650. Honestly Beyers tends to have surprisingly dark sounding drivers(which they tend to overcompensate with peaks) and tend to be effortless but usually aren’t the last word in detail. I always got the impression the HD 600 and HD 650 seem to be a bit strained and not all that effortless and rather excel more at tuning and tone and have respectable midrange detail.

 

[SilverEars]

The HD 650 does need a bit more bite and honestly more effortlessness. Yet despite the T1.2’s recession and peaks it’s a more effortless driver and somewhat more detailed as a whole(not as much as you would expect from a flagship though) than the HD 650. Honestly Beyers tends to have surprisingly dark sounding drivers(which they tend to overcompensate with peaks) and tend to be effortless but usually aren’t the last word in detail. I always got the impression the HD 600 and HD 650 seem to be a bit strained and not all that effortless and rather excel more at tuning and tone and have respectable midrange detail.

Depends on what you drive them with. With my BHA-1 those opinions of effortless or not is thrown out the window if you compare various headphones. It's not like driving a portable friendly headphone like 660S or 58X, when 650 or 600 is driven well. So yes, with various setups we can have opinions.

 

[kman1211]

Depends on what you drive them with. With my BHA-1 those opinions of effortless or not is thrown out the window if you compare various headphones.

It does depend on what you drive them with of course and honestly it can make or break headphone. Maybe my opinions will change as I upgrade my system. I’m not as focused on dynamics at the moment and currently waiting to get an e-stat amp (and later a better dac) so I can be drive my RR 1 Conquest which is sitting there waiting for an amp.