best opamps for 3 chnl active ground?
Jan 31, 2010 at 7:45 PM Thread Starter Post #1 of 8

H22

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I have a few boards made up that basically are redesigned mini3's.
I wanted to play around with op-amps on them and am looking for advice.
As they are SMD, rolling will be difficult, so I am seeking advice for a good combo of a dual SOIC amp for power and a complimentary ground amp.

Thus far I am using the "stock" mini3 AD8397 and OPA690 and it sounds good,

Just wanting to get a couple other combo's to test to see how they sound.

the boards are powered by a 8.4 volt Li-po battery, but I can bump it up to 11.1V if needed.

any advice is most welcome!

Joe
 
Jan 31, 2010 at 8:36 PM Post #2 of 8
if you use a proper "star" active gnd rather than "3-channel" then you shouldn't have any audible effects from the gnd channel op amp - the R/L channel amps reject any "gnd" movement relative to the supply V by their psrr - a big number, at least eqaul to their loop gain

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f6/new...9/#post6201896

in "3-channel" gnd op amp output impedance and noise are in series with the audio signal
 
Feb 1, 2010 at 11:11 AM Post #3 of 8
The virtues of active ground have been discussed numerous times. I have tried several ground concepts, and the one that sounds best and measures best is active ground. Read ambs post in this thread. His explanations and illustrative graphs aren't easy to argue against.
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f6/do-...-sound-279041/

Another virtue of active ground is that you can tweak the ground channel to get a blend of eg opamps to get "the right" sound, and I think this is what you really wanted to know.

I've found LM6171 to be a good and cheap ground channel amp. It's slightly mellow, which is a good thing most of the time since most opamps sound too bright. LMH6642 sounds too bright and metalic to my ears. LMH6654 is smoother.

In this thread there's a discussion about low voltage opamps
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f6/bes...v-only-354751/
 
Feb 1, 2010 at 2:56 PM Post #4 of 8
Quote:

I've found LM6171 to be a good and cheap ground channel amp. It's slightly mellow, which is a good thing most of the time since most opamps sound too bright. LMH6642 sounds too bright and metalic to my ears. LMH6654 is smoother.

In this thread there's a discussion about low voltage opamps
Best opamp for audio, operating at +5V only


Thanks, thats kinda what I was looking for. so the 6171 is a good ground channel amp, are the 6642 & 6654 also intended as ground amp or are they what you were using for the + channels?

As far as low voltage is concerned I'm not to interested in that, yet..... the amps i will put together will run on 2 (7.4v) or 3 (11.1v) Li-po packs.

I will take a look @ the 5v guy's though....

Joe
 
Feb 1, 2010 at 4:32 PM Post #5 of 8
Quote:

Originally Posted by diditmyself /img/forum/go_quote.gif
The virtues of active ground have been discussed numerous times. I have tried several ground concepts, and the one that sounds best and measures best is active ground. Read ambs post in this thread. His explanations and illustrative graphs aren't easy to argue against.


This one is:

This is why 3-channel active ground and 4-channel balanced output topologies take full advantages of class A operation. The load return current no longer goes to ground but is sourced/sunk by another active output stage...

The load return current does indeed go to ground.

se
 
Feb 1, 2010 at 5:14 PM Post #6 of 8
"active gnd" is a "supply splitting" method to avoid output coupling caps with a single supply amp (or the similar passive AC gnd + resistive divider)

above I posted a link to a "proper" connection of an "active gnd" with a "star gnd"


"3-channel" separates the input signal gnd from the output gnd - the output gnd is a "active gnd" usually using the same type of amplifier stage as the R/L channels

using the input reference (which may be a lower current "active gnd" like the TLE2426) to the "3rd-channel" as the signal input and feedback gnd and connecting the headphone gnd to the output of the 3rd-channel amplifier is a where I believe they've taken a wrong turn

the thread you (diditmyself) pointed to has other problems but I chose these 2 AMB posts which I think summarize the "3-channel" difference

Quote:

Originally Posted by amb /img/forum/go_quote.gif
The ear is at the same time an extremely sophisticated instrument that it has an extraordinarily wide dynamic range and (coupled with processing in the brain) have uncanny capabilities such as picking out a single conversation in a very noisy room. However as a measurement device it is also crude and easily fooled by preconceived notions and psychoacoustics.

Your analogy of the stage play doesn't really work here, because the "performance" of the play is a subjective matter. If the goal of an amplifier is to accurately amplify what comes in (i.e., straight wire with gain), then subjectives don't really come into play. Either there is a difference in the reproduced signal or there isn't, and if there is, it should be measurable with proper instrumentation and methodology. Whether any such differences are audible is a whole 'nother matter.



so we now have a criteria that can be decided entirely on engineering terms - AMB votes for accuracy

unfortunately the last part of the following is easily shown to be wrong on accuracy terms when applied to "3-channel" topology:

Quote:

Originally Posted by amb /img/forum/go_quote.gif
To relate back to the original subject of this thread -- with active ground and class A providing totally constant power supply currents, the capacitors on the rails are not called upon to do much other than keeping the impedance low.

I should also mention that constant PSU draw isn't the only benefit of active ground and balanced topologies. I've often posted about how not dumping load return current into ground eliminates signal ground pollution, but here is a fresh perspective of the synergy between active ground and class A operation that shouldn't be overlooked.



in the "3-channel" configuration the signal is amplified by the R/L amplifiers relative to the input signal gnd, the output current of the R/L channels passes through the headphone drivers and flows into the output of the 3rd channel - so the voltage appearing across the drivers is

input signal * gain - 3rd-channel output

3rd-channel output differs from "0" (= signal and feedback gnd) by the the noise, output Z*I_r+l of the 3rd channel amp and the distortion caused by 3rd channel amplifier nonlinearity while sinking that current

elsewhere "3-channel" advocates have argued that the errors of the 3rd channel output can cause distortion cancellation or other euphonic changes, tuning the "sound" - a frank admission of divergence from accuracy

my claim is that my illustration of "star gnd" shows that "gnd pollution" can be avoided by purely passive means - which doesn’t introduce a 3rd amplifier's noise, output Z or distortion and can be more accurate
 
Feb 1, 2010 at 8:03 PM Post #7 of 8
Quote:

Originally Posted by H22 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Thanks, thats kinda what I was looking for. so the 6171 is a good ground channel amp, are the 6642 & 6654 also intended as ground amp or are they what you were using for the + channels?

As far as low voltage is concerned I'm not to interested in that, yet..... the amps i will put together will run on 2 (7.4v) or 3 (11.1v) Li-po packs.

I will take a look @ the 5v guy's though....

Joe



You can use any opamp as a ground channel opamp, or a rail splitter with star ground like jcx advocates. Just give it the right conditions. There are some things to take in consideration:
1. Voltage swing. How close to the supply voltage will the maximum output be. With low power supply it's advantegous to have a rail-to-rail swinging opamp like AD8397, OPA690 and LMH6342/43 used in Mini3.
2. Stability. Is the board designed for unity gain like in Mini3, it's better to choose a unity gain stable opamp. Otherwise you have to do some tweaks to get it working.
3. Operating voltages. A lot of the better opamps wont operate properly at lower voltages. Some opamps wont tolerate a higher supply voltage. You have to look it up in the data sheets.
4. Current draw. Some opamps like AD8397 and OPA690 are hungry, and the batteries will drain quickly.
5. Output current. A lot of opamps can't drive low impedances. Most of them can easily drive a 300R Sennheiser but not a 16R IEM or a 30R Grado. Even if they're specified to deliver eg 75 mA like LMH6642, the distortion goes up when driving these loads. That's why you often see buffers in amps.

It's not easy to recommend an opamp that fulfills all wishes: operates at low voltage supply, swings rail-to-rail or close to it, is unity gain stable, has low current draw and high current output and sounds good. I haven't found it so I'm in to higher supply and using buffers to get the sound I want from eg OPA827, OPA627 and AD797.

Regarding sound you should look in the many opamp threads in the DIY section, or opamp roller threads in the portable amp section (mainly iBasso amps). There are plenty of reviews. If you choose a light sounding opamp as L/R amps, choose a warmer sounding ground amp or vice versa.
 
Feb 1, 2010 at 8:16 PM Post #8 of 8
Quote:

Originally Posted by Koyaan I. Sqatsi /img/forum/go_quote.gif
This one is:

This is why 3-channel active ground and 4-channel balanced output topologies take full advantages of class A operation. The load return current no longer goes to ground but is sourced/sunk by another active output stage...

The load return current does indeed go to ground.

se



Not a 3-channel active ground setup. At least not in the case of the M³ and a 3-channel β22.
 

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