[azeral]

Hi all,
 
I originally posted a question similar to this in the regular forum, but was suggested to come here for the most reliable answer to this question, due to the target budget (vide infra). 
 
My question is fairly simple in essence: I am an owner of the HFI-780, and I'm totally smitten with its more admirable sonic qualities. Namely, the speed, detail and impact that this sleeper of a headphone provides. I've auditioned quite a few others in this strata, and own the philips citiscape uptown, in addition. Nothing comes close for me.

The reason I'm out seeking another can is the unfortunate aspect of their comfort. Even with the well-known beyer mods for the pads and the headband from a Sennheiser 650, I just can't get them to not hurt my head after a modest period of time.
 
Thus, my question is essentially if anyone knows the best headphone or headphone/amp combination (with a budget of about 1K in mind) for someone who loves this "fun", colored headphone. The mainstay of my audio consumption is aggressive rock, but I have a very broad palette. The most important qualities, for me, are comfort, and characteristic sound. 

I'm not too sensitive to the soundstage, and I don't mind a more "intimate" sound in this regard. Thus, I'm not shy of closed-back configurations (and might actually prefer them, since I'll recluse myself to some Dillinger Escape Plan while my girlfriend listens to Idol or some such nonsense ). I'm mainly after something with a ton of snap, with excellent transient resolution, and solid bass extension. My love for the Ultrasones also implies a slightly recessed mid, and a brighter presentation, as well. 

I understand that at this level, neutrality becomes one of the most discussed qualities, but I'm simply not after such accuracy. I simply want something excellently fast, great for rock, with top of the line comfort and quality. 
 
So, head-fi'ers, does such a beast exist near the 1K range?

 

[azeral]

I'll just bump this once. 

No one around has some experience with the lower-end Ultrasones, in addition to the higher-end of the spectrum? It's a peculiar comparison, admittedly. I just wonder if there's something at this level to satisfy what is perhaps an equally peculiar sonic signature for summit-fi.

 

[obobskivich]

I'll qualify: I haven't heard the HFI-780. So don't be too harsh if my suggestions are *a bit* off kilter. I have heard the HFI-2400, and some cheaper PROline model years ago (I don't even remember the name, probably the 550, but who knows). So I'm not unfamiliar with the Ultrasone sound.

The first, likely best, suggestion is the PRO2900 (we're assuming the Edition 10 and it's kin are not on the table mmkay?) - much better detail, speed, etc than you get from the cheaper Ultrasones, and it still has the characteristic S-LOGIC effect (it has "S-LOGIC Plus" for whatever that's worth - looking at it's baffle vs the non "Plus" models I just see more holes, I think your 780 is a "Plus" headphone too though), and Ultrasone bass (where it's slammy when it needs to be, but not overbearing when it doesn't). They're fairly comfy (open-back, velour pads, etc) but have the same headband as basically every other Ultrasone (which can cause problems depending on your head). I would say those are where I would start (in other words, go find them and try them, possibly buy them and take them home and try them in more detail). One thing to note though, the PRO2900 can be somewhat unforgiving of bad material, where the HFI-2400 and similar will smooth over nastiness, the 2900 brings it right to the top (and I think they should, they're marketed for professionals after all).

The next suggestion is a headphone from Grado Labs. The RS-1 is my personal choice, and that's what I'll suggest to you as well. They are a *dramatic* departure from the Ultrasone house sound, but they are "fun and engaging" with the best of them. I'm not even sure where to begin comparing them to the PRO2900 though - you change sound staging, bass, overall tonality, texture, etc entirely; they're very different. If you just want to be engaged and wrapped up in the music, the RS-1 are probably a good candidate as well. If you really just like the Ultrasone house sound, the PRO2900 are probably a better choice. Beyond Grado and Ultrasone, you can still find very colored high-end headphones, but nothing that I'd drop into the "fun" or "engaging" category along the same lines (for example, ATs are colored, but it's different), and then there's the more accurate/precise side of the spectrum (Koss, STAX, AKG, etc) that tries to re-create a perfect wave-form. Those are probably not the cans you're looking for.

The "summit fi" Ultrasone suggestion would be one of the Edition series - Edition 7, 8, 9 (and/or Signature Pro), or 10. 8, Sig Pro, and 10 are still in production/available new. 7 and 9 will be an adventure in used headphones (7 will be particularly hard to find). I haven't heard any of those, but the Signature Pro/Ed9 are consistently well regarded as closed-back headphones go, and overall. The Edition 8 and 10 seem to be more polarizing. There's probably less than 5000 people on Earth who can talk about the 7 (and I'm not one of them), but the tidbits I've picked up are that they're a good top-end Ultrasone, but not R10/L3000/etc competitors (they cost like $3749 brand new back in 2004). I would strongly advise doing a lot of homework if you want to pursue one of these cans, because not only are they polarizing (as all Ultrasones are (I'll put it this way - Ultrasone's founder, Florian Koenig, did a research study a few years ago on user preference of S-LOGIC vs non-S-LOGIC, and the results statistically demonstrated that S-LOGIC is more likely to create strongly polarized user responses...how's that for "sound is subjective!")), they all cost better than a thousand dollars and take a huge hit on resale (due to how polarizing they are).

FWIW.

 

[azeral]

Thank you for the measured, informative response. 

Recently, I took a stab at the PRO 750, which is a step up on the HFI-780 in terms of comfort and build, and came away pretty impressed. I ended up not going with these, though, since I felt, despite the increased comfort, that I would be buying something only marginally better in terms of sound.
To be honest, the PRO 2900 wasn't even on my radar (In a previous thread, someone suggested that the HFI-780 and the PRO 750 are a bit of an exception to what is the typical "bass-thumping" Ultrasone sound {their words, not mine}). Such a characterization (where the PRO's always come up to people asking for good basshead cans)  drove me a bit away from the rest of the PRO-line. I'll take this suggestion and perhaps order a pair of 2900's to check them out, as a starting point.

I've seen the RS-1 pop up in several threads, but that also seems to be somewhat controversial when people are asking about rock or some high-end phones with good speed, with someone shooting it down almost as soon as it's suggested by a user. (Not enough bass! Grados are skreetchy!, and such.) I think again I'll take this suggestion and try to track down a pair for listening. 

Thinking about it, it seems perfectly logical that the place to look for something along the lines of the 780 in the ultra high-end might be the very top of the Ultrasone line itself, but when I search for these, they are usually out of budget. The ED9 sounds like a fantastic option, as well, and another that wasn't exactly on my radar. 
 
While it might not be fit for the summit-fi section, I'm actually seeing many, many good things about HiFiMan's these days, with the HE-400 being suggested for more dynamic material, in contrast to the HE-500, which is typically analogized with British loudspeakers as being more polite. (And, as an owner - but not lover - of the Wharfedale Diamond 10.7 floorstanders, I can safely say I don't care for this type of sound as much for music). 
 
But, again, thanks for the very helpful suggestions. I'll give a shout in a while when I get up to speed on some of these choices. The field is a bit expanded now, but I'm guessing that this will only have a positive impact when I make my final choice. 
 
Cheers!

 

[obobskivich]

Thank you for the measured, informative response. 


Recently, I took a stab at the PRO 750, which is a step up on the HFI-780 in terms of comfort and build, and came away pretty impressed. I ended up not going with these, though, since I felt, despite the increased comfort, that I would be buying something only marginally better in terms of sound.
To be honest, the PRO 2900 wasn't even on my radar (In a previous thread, someone suggested that the HFI-780 and the PRO 750 are a bit of an exception to what is the typical "bass-thumping" Ultrasone sound {their words, not mine}). Such a characterization (where the PRO's always come up to people asking for good basshead cans)  drove me a bit away from the rest of the PRO-line. I'll take this suggestion and perhaps order a pair of 2900's to check them out, as a starting point.

I haven't heard the 750, but from a few people I know, that "exception to the rule" seems to be the consensus - my understanding is that they're one of the oldest continuous production models from Ultrasone (Ultrasone re-did all of its models a few years back, which is how we got the 2900, 780, 2400, S-LOGIC Plus, etc; iirc the 750 have been around since the PROline was all blue). The PRO900 are commonly suggested for bass-heads, and I'm not sure how to feel about that, but the 2900 are not fart-cannon basshead cans imho. They have plenty of low end, but it isn't overbearing or bloaty unless that's how the song is. They can sound "thin" if the track has no bass. Their only flaws imho are the vice-grip headband (which is all Ultrasones with that band), and that they're very unforgiving (which is apparently all Ti driver Ultrasones; the PRO750 are also in that boat, so if those weren't bothersome, I'd say the 2900 are worth a swing - IME the Au drivers are slower and muddier, but forgiving, the Ti are faster and sharper, and relentless).

I've seen the RS-1 pop up in several threads, but that also seems to be somewhat controversial when people are asking about rock or some high-end phones with good speed, with someone shooting it down almost as soon as it's suggested by a user. (Not enough bass! Grados are skreetchy!, and such.) I think again I'll take this suggestion and try to track down a pair for listening. 

Grado has fallen in popularity in recent years with the rise of chart warriors and meter maids, but they haven't really changed anything on their end. I've also noted a huge propensity by people who have either never heard Grados, or who have only heard one model (usually the iGrado or SR-60) to talk as if they know the entire product line because they see the phrase "house sound" mentioned somewhere, and/or believe that because it's similar/identical drivers, they're all the same thing (I've seen this claim so many times in the last year it's disgusting).

They have a unique sound signature, and it isn't for everyone, but they are not identical to one another. IMHO they're one of the few manufacturers who do bright right across their entire product range. The biggest complaints I can forsee are fit/comfort (which seems to vary person by person - for example I hate on-ear headphones (like the ESW9) but love me some Grados (which are on ear), but there are other people who have complained of serious pain after relatively short-term use, so it really depends on you), and if you don't like a bright/radiant headphone that doesn't have tons of boom-boom midbass (not that this is a bad thing, it's just that Grados will not deliver this).

Thinking about it, it seems perfectly logical that the place to look for something along the lines of the 780 in the ultra high-end might be the very top of the Ultrasone line itself, but when I search for these, they are usually out of budget. The ED9 sounds like a fantastic option, as well, and another that wasn't exactly on my radar. 

The Edition 9 itself is discontinued, and has been for a while, but Ultrasone claims the Signature Pro to be a spiritual successor and similar-if-not-identical internally. They're well regarded and probably one of the least polarizing Ultrasone models I've seen in recent years (just as the original Edition 9 was); if you compare that to something like the Edition 10 which will usually start some drama when it's brought up in threads (or the Edition 7, years ago). The downside is the $1200-$1300 price tag.

While it might not be fit for the summit-fi section, I'm actually seeing many, many good things about HiFiMan's these days, with the HE-400 being suggested for more dynamic material, in contrast to the HE-500, which is typically analogized with British loudspeakers as being more polite. (And, as an owner - but not lover - of the Wharfedale Diamond 10.7 floorstanders, I can safely say I don't care for this type of sound as much for music). 

Haven't tried those, but I see a lot of people clamoring over the HE-400 and HE-500. My personal issues are the extreme weight/size, and the insensitivity. If those aren't problems for you, I'd absolutely try them out - I doubt a whole lot of people would suggest them if they were no good (the only place this line of thinking can bite you is that headphones that are relatively rare or unknown tend to stay that way, like the PRO2900, regardless of how good or bad they are; but that's not exactly a bad thing (the goal is good sound, vendor agnostic, right?)).

I'm not really sure on the speaker-to-headphone comparison - I dislike most contemporary British things.

 

[azeral]

Hopefully, after our discussion here, it does not pain one to hear this, but I ended up making an impulse purchase rather than a calculated one based on trials. 
 
A Denon D7000 has come along for a quite reasonable price, and I simply could not resist trying it out. The very positive things people have to say about this line (and this model, specifically), in addition to the romance associated with its discontinuation, was a bit too compelling for me to hold out for the other models on my shortlist. 
 
However, depending on how I perceive the performance of the D7K, there will still be one foreseeable gap in my inventory after this purchase: a very strong, open back model. The ATH-AD700 was my low-risk introduction to the flavor the open-back types provide, and I'm very eager to venture into more high-end hardware here as well.

I suspect I will still be looking at some of the models discussed here at some point in the not too distant future. Rather than the trash bin, that shortlist is being folded up and put in my wallet (perhaps ironically).
 
I'm not sure if summit-fi needs or cares about my impressions of the D7K, but I might as well contribute on how well I am satisfied by this model, given my tastes, perspective and performance-desires discussed above. After some time with them, I'll be back.
 
Until then, good listening!