[Gus141]

When Apple released Apple Music (AM) with support for lossless and high-res, I really wanted to know, what are the best DAPs for playing Apple Music lossless, high-res, or ATMOS (personally, I’m not interested in ATMOS, but bit-perfect lossless is enticing). But the volume of posts to sift through for the candidate DAPs that I don’t follow on Head-Fi was so huge I thought I‘d ask in a separate thread: who’s DAP is working with AM lossless/High-Res/ATMOS?

We know the latest iOS devices support AM-lossless/ATMOS. And early on in June there was the beta release of the Android version of AM that supported lossless, and some folks sideloaded it to test it out. But now we have the official public release of the latest Android version of AM with lossless/high-res support.

So… who have tried it on their DAPs? What’s working? Is Android source-rate-converting (SRC) Apple Music to 16bit/48kHz or is it bit-perfect on your kit?

PLEASE POST YOUR EXPERIENCES.

I’ll start in the next post from me about my experiences with the Sony ZX507.

Cheers,
Gus

Obviosly, the best source for Apple Music right now is an Apple device. My experiences with that have been very positive. I have an iPad Pro 12.9” 2020 (USB-C output to external DACs) and an iPhone 12 Mini (Lightning to external USB DACs); many wired IEMs and headphones, and wireless Airpods and Airpod Max; plus AppleTV4k 2021.

But I also have a couple of Android-based DAPs. Sadly, my FiiO M11 Pro has never supported Apple Music sign-in due to the antiquated Samsung SOC it used (plus it’s stuck in Android 7). But my Sony ZX507 (on Android 9) has been a very solid, bug-free, Android-based DAP for streaming for some time, so I decided to try the latest Apple Music app from the Google Play store.

Everything worked as planned. But with the Sony ZX507 there is no bit-perfect streaming from any service: they either pass the audio to the Android mixer for SRC’ing to 16/48 or they do their own upconversion to 32bit/192kHz (what they call in the settings: “High Res Streaming”).

I played several of my favorite high-res and CD-quality tracks through the Apple Music app on ZX507, and after an hour I was very surprised at how HOT the zx507 was. I have never experienced the zx507 get that hot before (even after 5 hours of high-res streaming through Qobuz). I had never played AM through the ZX507 before (just local files, and streaming from TIDAL and Qobuz), so this surprised me.

Anyone else finding AM app makes their DAPs run hot?

I heard from a friend that his FiiO M11 + LTD (Android 10) is playing Apple Music tracks at the native sample rate without Android SRC, as indicated on the status bar. So I would assume other DAPs that bypass the Android mixer (e.g., Shanling M8) are also playing Apple Music bit-perfectly.

Can anyone confirm?

Here is a little explanation for this thread:

I wanted to start this thread after switching to Apple Music. That’s not a very accurate statement though—I never was not an Apple Music (AM) subscriber— and maybe some of you will associate with my experinces; but, I did switch to AM for lossless and high-res.

I was an iTunes music purchaser for years; maybe from the beginning. Playing my music on various iPods until the first iPhone, and the rest is history (I’ve owned so many iOS devices I lost count).

I was quick to jump on the iTunes Match train to get my rips on the cloud. Then, when Apple Music came out (which included an iTunes Martch functionality) I cancelled iTunes Match, and became a subscriber to AM and have been paying for it ever since. BUT…I rarely every listened to it: it was AAC 256Kbps and I mostly listened to local FLAC, and as new high-res streaming services emerged, I joined, and eventually relied on them for all my listening.

But then TIDAL got too into MQA and I cancelled. And Qobuz was buggy and slow on Android (but great on my LUMIN U1 Mini and Node 2i so I kept it) but I wanted a fast, high-res service for a DAP, and so when Apple Music became lossless & high-res I was ready to go all-in.

I love DAPs though: the idea of a stand-alone music player not tied to my phone. So I hope to find an Android DAP that plays Apple Music as well as my iPad Pro.

Anyone find the perfect Apple Music DAP?

Cheers,
Gus

 

[seeteeyou]

I would certainly wait until the dust is settled, some Android-based DAPs could promise everything with the implementation of either DTA (Direct Transport Audio) or AGLO (Android Global Lossless Output) but in reality we'll never know how the official Apple Music app would actually behave. DAPs really don't come with "stock" configurations of Android to begin with, what's "supposed to work" in theory might not always match what's happening in the real world IMHO.

For instance, everything might seem to be fine and dandy but all of a sudden it could very well go south for whatever reasons

https://www.reddit.com/r/AppleMusic/comments/oq6vln/is_anyone_else_having_trouble_with_apple_music/

The next thing you know, DAP manufacturers / Google / Apple could very well blame each other since it's much easier to keep passing the hot potato.

The best DAP really is the one that's working consistently, or at least under most circumstances.

 

[Gus141]

I would certainly wait until the dust is settled…

Good advice….and I should wait…I know…

But in all seriousness, DTA and AGLO do present valid reasons to wait and see.

Thanks for reminding me about these.

 

[artpiggo]

Dx220 max also show bit perfect on status bar.

So I assume all android ibasso works.

No DAP support dolby now.

 

[Gus141]

No DAP support dolby now.

Thanks for that info. I was wondering why I didn’t see any settings for Dolby ATMOS in the new Apple Music app on my DAP, just the Lossless and High-Res options.

Cheers

 

[Gus141]

I’m not sure I’ll get many more replies to this thread so I’ll post things as I discover them. Maybe someone who searches on “Apple Music” and “DAPs” will find something here of value.

My research is discovering that DAPs that have always bypassed the Android mixer when playing out of third-party players/streamers will still do that for Apple Music as well. So the usual suspects (latest models of FiiO, Hiby, iBasso, and Shanling) which let native apps like Qobuz and TIDAL behave like UAPP does on other devices, with direct bit-perfect audio, will also let Apple Music play lossless/high-res without Android SRC.

ATMOS support is another story, and since I’m not very interested in it outside of the novelty of it on my Airpod Max via the 2021 Apple TV 4k, I’ll let others comment on which DAPs are supporting that as they phase in that functionality across Android devices (I’m guessing this is a Dolby licensing issue on Android devices).

One of the issues for me in selecting a new DAP (besides supporting non-Android-SRC’d bit-perfect playback for Apple Music (AM) or any other 3rd-party players) is:
— Is it running a very old version of Android? I consider Android 7.x too old to buy a new device personally. I have a FiiO M11 Pro stuck on Android 7 and even though I was initially enticed by the Shanling M8 after recent inquiries, it’s Android 7.1 OS has pretty much made me discount it (I’m not looking for future-proofing per se, but the likelihood of Apple Music software requiring newer OS functionality to get all the latest features is high).

My Sony ZX507 is running Android 9, and that’s about as old an Android version I’m looking for in a DAP. Sadly, the Sony ZX507 has issues:
—it still does not support being a USB DAC
—as a transport is is constrained in that it does not output digital audio out of it’s USB port bit perfectly and at a max of 96kHz
—and, internally, it does not support bit-perfect audio for 3rd-party software (TIDAL and Qobuz will be subjected to Android source rate conversion (SRC) to 48kHz unless you turn on a Sony proprietary setting called “High Res Streaming”, which will upsample everything to 32b/192kHz)
— Note: UAPP is an exception in that recent versions of the software have identified the ZX507 DAC as a high-res-capable DAC and UAPP is sending bit-perfect output to the Sony DAC which will only slightly modify it by zero-padding everything to 32bit (and if “High-Res Streaming” setting is on, will get upscaled to 192kHz as well)

As I said in a previous post, Apple Music Lossless/High-Res works fine on the ZX507 but not bit-perfectly.

So I would say Android 9 is the lowest I want to go with a new streaming-capable DAP that supports Apple Music Lossless/High-Res. Hiby’s and iBasso’s latest are Android 9. FiiO’s latest is Android 10. I have a pre-order in for the FiiO M11 Plus LTD (if that doesn’t happen due to supply issues, I’m open to other suggestions).

Cheers,
Gus

 

[seeteeyou]

NePLAYER could very well be some sorta "Plan B" since it's able to access Apple Music as well, I installed NePLAYER Lite on my iPod Touch a long time ago and it's working fine with the original Chord Hugo.

Android version could also access Apple Music and only 44.1kHz files are supported, actually that's exactly what we need to confirm whether it's able to bypass the SRC of Android Mixer (i.e. behaving just like USB Audio Player Pro) or not

https://www.radius.co.jp/en/app/neplayer-lite/
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=jp.co.radius.neplayer_lite_an&hl=en&gl=US

Spoiler: Apple Music

---

Obviously we'll need to verify that with something like this

Spoiler: 44.1KHz

If the USB DAC were indeed displaying 44.1KHz, then we're pretty darn sure that NePLAYER should be as good as USB Audio Player Pro in terms of bypassing the SRC.

Otherwise, no big deal and move on.

---

The latest version of NePLAYER Lite was released on May 19th and not sure if they're able to support ALAC lossless music streaming yet, though we could still test with local ALAC files instead

https://samples.ffmpeg.org/A-codecs/lossless/ALAC/old_midi_stuff.m4a
https://samples.ffmpeg.org/A-codecs/lossless/ALAC/quicktime-newcodec-applelosslessaudiocodec.m4a
https://samples.ffmpeg.org/A-codecs/lossless/ALAC/snoop_try.m4a

 

[artpiggo]

NePLAYER could very well be some sorta "Plan B" since it's able to access Apple Music as well, I installed NePLAYER Lite on my iPod Touch a long time ago and it's working fine with the original Chord Hugo.

Android version could also access Apple Music and only 44.1kHz files are supported, actually that's exactly what we need to confirm whether it's able to bypass the SRC of Android Mixer (i.e. behaving just like USB Audio Player Pro) or not

https://www.radius.co.jp/en/app/neplayer-lite/
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=jp.co.radius.neplayer_lite_an&hl=en&gl=US

Spoiler: Apple Music

---

Obviously we'll need to verify that with something like this

Spoiler: 44.1KHz

If the USB DAC were indeed displaying 44.1KHz, then we're pretty darn sure that NePLAYER should be as good as USB Audio Player Pro in terms of bypassing the SRC.

Otherwise, no big deal and move on.

---

The latest version of NePLAYER Lite was released on May 19th and not sure if they're able to support ALAC lossless music streaming yet, though we could still test with local ALAC files instead

https://samples.ffmpeg.org/A-codecs/lossless/ALAC/old_midi_stuff.m4a
https://samples.ffmpeg.org/A-codecs/lossless/ALAC/quicktime-newcodec-applelosslessaudiocodec.m4a
https://samples.ffmpeg.org/A-codecs/lossless/ALAC/snoop_try.m4a

Neplayer in iOS will work perfectly.

Neplayer in android, no. It doesnt detect usb dac like same as spotify support.

One of the issues for me in selecting a new DAP (besides supporting non-Android-SRC’d bit-perfect playback for Apple Music (AM) or any other 3rd-party players) is:
— Is it running a very old version of Android? I consider Android 7.x too old to buy a new device personally. I have a FiiO M11 Pro stuck on Android 7 and even though I was initially enticed by the Shanling M8 after recent inquiries, it’s Android 7.1 OS has pretty much made me discount it (I’m not looking for future-proofing per se, but the likelihood of Apple Music software requiring newer OS functionality to get all the latest features is high).

My Sony ZX507 is running Android 9, and that’s about as old an Android version I’m looking for in a DAP. Sadly, the Sony ZX507 has issues:
—it still does not support being a USB DAC
—as a transport is is constrained in that it does not output digital audio out of it’s USB port bit perfectly and at a max of 96kHz
—and, internally, it does not support bit-perfect audio for 3rd-party software (TIDAL and Qobuz will be subjected to Android source rate conversion (SRC) to 48kHz unless you turn on a Sony proprietary setting called “High Res Streaming”, which will upsample everything to 32b/192kHz)
— Note: UAPP is an exception in that recent versions of the software have identified the ZX507 DAC as a high-res-capable DAC and UAPP is sending bit-perfect output to the Sony DAC which will only slightly modify it by zero-padding everything to 32bit (and if “High-Res Streaming” setting is on, will get upscaled to 192kHz as well)

As I said in a previous post, Apple Music Lossless/High-Res works fine on the ZX507 but not bit-perfectly.

So I would say Android 9 is the lowest I want to go with a new streaming-capable DAP that supports Apple Music Lossless/High-Res. Hiby’s and iBasso’s latest are Android 9. FiiO’s latest is Android 10. I have a pre-order in for the FiiO M11 Plus LTD (if that doesn’t happen due to supply issues, I’m open to other suggestions).

Cheers,
Gus

Not sure you check cayin os version yet.

Cayin n6ii also great sound.

 

[normie610]

Hiby R8 works perfectly with Apple Music hi-res.

 

[Gus141]

Hiby R8 works perfectly with Apple Music hi-res.

Thanks for the confirmation. I was on the fence between a $750 M11+LTD with SD 660 SOC and Android 10, vs a $1999 R8, with same SOC but with Android 9. Same DAC chips too. The R8 does have better clocks and display. But is that worth over $1000 more? I’m still tempted though, lol. I like the look of the R8 and the higher res screen, but will it sound better then the half-price M11 + LTD?

I had pre-ordered the M11+Stainless Steal, but that fell through, so I have ordered an in-stock aluminum M11+LTD which should arrive in a couple of days. If that does not live up to my expectations, the R8 (ordered from the closest dealer, MusicTeck) is the next thing I buy. But I’m going to give the M11+LTD a chance since I have been a fan of FiiO.

Edit: Also, @normie610 , looking at your sig I realize I have a lot of the same kit, so I think I would like anything you like too. From the ESS chips of the Lumin gear, to the CL chips of the W2, and the the AMKs in the R8: I like them all too. Thanks for posting man.

Cheers,
Gus

 

[seeteeyou]

It's an older model but I dunno, maybe it's a good idea to stay away from FiiO if we're actually interested in USB DACs?

http://fiio.me/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=45037&page=1#pid131065

I confirmed again with the engineer that USB audio output without SRC is only supported in FiiO Music app. For 3rd party straming app, PO/LO/Spdif playback is without SRC.

 

[Knightsfan11]

I know you are after a DAP, but have you considered an iPhone used as a DAP & just connecting a nice DAC/AMP?

 

[Gus141]

It's an older model but I dunno, maybe it's a good idea to stay away from FiiO if we're actually interested in USB DACs?

http://fiio.me/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=45037&page=1#pid131065

I appreciate the research and link, but If I understand that thread, the person was complaiing about the USB *OUT* from the player. I’m not actually interested in a DAP to be used as a transport to another external USB DAC. I want to connect my IEMs/headphones to the amp of the DAP (i.e., just plug it in and control the volume from the player).

I have the M11 Pro and have enjoyed it for more than a year. Qobuz and TIDAL (and the native Fiio Music app) on that FiiO DAP all bypass the Android SRC mixer; but, due to the old Samsung SOC, Apple Music sign-in has never worked. If it did work in the M11 Pro I wouldn’t have even started this thread since I love the M11 Pro. But when Apple Music announced lossless, I needed a DAP that would allow me to log in to Apple Music, as a minimum, obviously, and then be bit-perfect, as a rule. That’s the vector of this thread for me. I think I have found it: either M11 Plus LTD or Hiby R8. I’ll try the M11+ first and if not satisfied…

Thanks and cheers,
Gus

 

[Gus141]

I know you are after a DAP, but have you considered an iPhone used as a DAP & just connecting a nice DAC/AMP?

100% correct sir! That is how I’m using Apple Music lossless/high-res now: iPhone 12 Mini or iPad Pro 12.9” (2020) to many of my external DACs (I love them all); but I as I stated earlier, I still love a good DAP not tied to my phone and was researching the best DAP for Apple Music (AM).

P.S. : The best sounding AM I have heard so far is through my iPad Pro 12.9” USB-C output -> L&P W2 dongle -> 4.4mm bal -> Sony IER-Z1R….wow!

It's an older model but I dunno, maybe it's a good idea to stay away from FiiO if we're actually interested in USB DACs?

http://fiio.me/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=45037&page=1#pid131065

Despite what I said above about not being interested in USB out from a DAP supporting bit-perfect digital output, I do now realize after re-reading one of your post that that capability is exactly what you are interested in. So yes, it would be interesting to also hear about DAPs that support the ability to output bit-perfect digital playback of AM lossless over a digital interface (e.g., USB or S/PDIF) so that a better external DAC/AMP could be used [i.e., basically what I’m doing with my iPhone and iPad].

For what it’s worth: all recent iOS devices do this bit-perfect thing over USB/lightning very well. I use a lightling-to-USB-C cable from my iPhone 12 Mini to a Lotoo Paw S1 dongle or a Luxury & Precision W2 dongle. I also use a USB-C-to-USB-appropriate cable from a 2020 iPad Pro 12.9” to: L&P W2, a bunch of portable DAC/Amps, and even my desktop RME ADI-2 DAC. Amazing sound, and with iOS, perfect sample-rate switching.

I’m looking for the best Android DAP for playing bit-perfect Apple Music lossless to IEMs connected directly to the DAP. I think you’re saying you are looking for a way to get Apple Music to output bit-perfectly over USB from an Android device; in other words, the way UAPP does for TIDAL and Qobuz by using it’s own USB driver and bypassing Android SRC.

I read somewhere (I think Darko?) that TIDAL is rolling out direct audio support in their native app if it detects a capable DAC (internal or external). Maybe Apple will go this route and support it in their native app as well.

Cheers

 

[Action123]

I wish Apple would consider revitalizing/strengthening the iPod Touch by tossing a great DAC in there and selling it as an audiophile product marketed towards their “high-res” stuff. I’d buy that…