[John Reeves]

Hi,

As the original poster, I asked for advice since I have similar doubts as Hershon2000 regarding the rave reviews by just a few people. I say doubts rather than questioning anyones integrity.

I could try one out on trial, living in the UK, but since I do not own another DAC, the only comparison I could do would be with the EMU 0404. Even though the Beresford might offer a better sound quality compared to the sound card, I have a concern that I will wish to upgrade in the future and will have wasted money by trying to economize.

With regard to HiFi magazine testing, most of them are paid or influenced to write reviews or use unqualified reviewers that are unfamiliar with the alternatives available in the marketplace. How else do you explain the rave reviews of Bose products over the years.

Thanks for all the posts and comments, I am taking them onboard. keep going.

Cheers

John

 

[donthuang]

Just want to know

somebody here says Zhaolu can beat Bechmark DAC1

is Zhaolu get a hifi magazines review?

 

[jandl100]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hershon2000 /img/forum/go_quote.gif To say this is as good as the $1,000 Benchmark Dac 1 is totally ridiculous. It's like saying, that a little League team could beat the NY Yankees. If I read just a couple of reviews even alluding to this, OK it would have some credibility. Anyway, for whatever your intentions, if your group wants to hype something, don't do it so over the top that none of us will believe you.

Hi there Hershon2000. I do understand where you are coming from having doubts about a cheap un-marketed product. But I can assure you that I owned a Benchmark DAC1 prior to getting the Beresford TC-7510 on trial. Money was not the issue - sound quality was (and is). I now own the Beresford and not the Benchmark. Sorry, but you are not entitled to an opinion until, like me, you have tried it. It really is as simple as that.

My experience (YMMV as they say) is that the Beresford is more focussed and interesting to listen to - in comparison, the otherwise fine sounding Benchmark sounds a little amorphous and, well, boring.

Get the damn thing on trial - make sure it runs in for a few days (it sounds grotty fresh out of the box) - and then voice a VALID opinion, rather than impugn my honesty and integrity without objective basis.

Sure, the Beresford has faults. The headphone output is good quality, although I have not compared it directly against stand-alone amps - it way beats the sound from integral headphone outputs (surprising that some stand alone units don't - I've tried a few). But with my high sensitivity 32 Ohm phones (Sony MDR-CD1700) the Beresford is very noisy. It is fixed level noise (i.e. independent of the volume control) so I get around this by attenuating the output with an in-line pot and then upping the volume control on the Beresford (it has lots of available gain). Despite this tinkering, the sound remains open and transparent and good enough for my purposes. Your purposes? .. that's up to you to decide.

Other faults? .... errr ... I'm working on it .... I'm a compulsive upgrader - I think I'm gonna have trouble with the Beresford!

You can certainly get "different", I'm really not so sure about "better". Beresford is a small start-up company - he simply doesn't have the PR & marketing clout (or finances) of the Big Boys - that doesn't mean he makes a poor product. The number of Big Name components you see these days where clearly most of the $$$ they ask you to pay have been spent on the fancy casework .... Beresford sure doesn't do that, that's why (along with the low/zero marketing costs he has) the unit is so cheap, not to mention far lower profit margins & overheads. I'll bet some of the Kilobuck audiophile Must-Haves have the same (or more likely worse) basic digital components as the Beresford.

I'm sure that if Beresford spent a couple of hundred $$ on inch-thick face plates and laser-etched logos he could charge $2000 for the unit and folks would think it fine value. Do you really think that stock digital chips and a decent power supply should cost thousands? - because that plus the casework and the CEO's third Ferrari are all that you're paying for!

 

[MiChael.]

Hershon2000 I don't know what are you thinking or are you even thinking.

Keep in mind Beresford price is too low to get any attention of hifi magazines and you may not have noticed but almost all the hifi magazines just praise and praise the products. Every review end with "Best buy" "Editor's choice" "Product of year" "Reviewer's love" you name it.
Or if not, magazines hardly write anything negative, they are quite good masking the cons.
Maybe they think too much how pleasing it would be read things. Some people care about what magazines hate of their gear and consider it rude.

And you might take it as subjective, what if that DAC would have tons of "good" reviews and you wouldn't still like it ??
You might not really care it, if you use your own ears and don't like it.
Though it's not like what is good or bad, it's the synergy.

 

[Herandu]

I was trying to find some magazine reviews of the other low cost DACs frequently mentioned here, but I just can't find any. What I can find are reviews on the more expensive units.
I am not ashamed to stand by my claims with the regards to the TC-7510. Is it because it is an affordable non-China built unit why there is so much doubts about the product? Since when do the Chinese build any world class quality products? Or are many of us so accustomed to let our eyes see that a lot of money is being spent on an item, before our ears start to believe it is hearing something better?
Someone mentioned the internal design of the TC-7510. That's how perception gets the better of you. A DAC unit consists of a crystal oscillator, a DAC chip, and a output buffer amp. Now, how complicated and big a circuit board does one need to design in order to put those 3 chips on the PCB? You would think it is rocket science, rather than a refined audio experience that we are after. Unfortnately a lot of snake oil and hype is piled on to many of the expensive DACs just to justify why U$50 worth of componenys in the actual audio chain end up being U$2000 in the shops.
If someone like Beresford wishes to turn that same U$50 work of components into a U$160 DAC then I can't see why the guy should be forced to have to charge more in order to justify the fact that the unit is indeed THAT good. So far not a single high-end DAC owner who has tried the cheap TC-7510 has been able to come here and say it is all BS.
So much for the claims of scams etc. The DAC guys charging an arm and a leg are getting worried that their secret fleecing of the buying publc is being undermined by a small start up business who doesn't wish to take part in the 10X or more mark up on the product that other companies are doing. My old Amstrad/Bsh?binatone music center with CD player of years gone by used the TDA1543. Surprisingly, that cheap chip is found in the world's most expensive audiophile DAC. That IC is one of the worst ever made, and dirt cheap. But is is to be found in parallel configuration in at several DACs I have seen. When a designer starts off with using a budget DAC chip for his design, he'll need tons of extra circuitry to make that less than useful DAC chip produce anything useful. But all that extra circuitry look so impressive, many are fooled into believing it must be better.
This is not a fabricated story on WMD. At the end of the day, some of the best audio products ever designed and manufactered were British. I for one have no problem with putting my faith in Beresford, Cambridge Audio, Meridian, Linn, NAIM, KEF etc.

 

[Slem]

I find this discussion very interesting and the arguements from jandl100 and Herandu sound indeed.
Being new to the headfi world I question myself why does everything has to be so expensive? Yeah ofcourse it is made in small quantites and this pretty much ramps the cost up.
Still, I buy the arguement that it IS possible to make a cheap DAC just as good or better than a much more expensive one.
However, if it is that easy for an upstart company to make a superior product, why hasn't a more experienced company done it before?
A much quoted sentence goes a way to explain this:" If you see a 100 dollar bill on sidewalk in NY it does not exist, because if it did it would not be there since someone else would have picked it up before you." (or somewhere along those lines, dammit you get the point

)

As much as I applaud an upstart company to try to compete with cheaper (and better?) products, I also question their ability to do just that.
Please, could someone reputable around here review it?

 

[Hershon2000]

Having done things a while back in the entertainment industry, I realise it can be frustrating to get things reviewed but I still got things reviewed. I also realise that reviews on regular advertisers products are usually a bit biased on the positive side. But a company can not succeed unless it has some kind of marketing program no matter how good the product. I'll give you a total example here. The TC-7510 DAC is sold at a cheaper price (with shipping) on Amazon.com with the same model number but the name Bereford left out. Under product information on this site, it's totally piss poor as no one from the company apparently bothered to elaborate and "make sexy" the product. I find that suspicious behavior.

Anyway, if you guys like the product so much great. I just think when you write posts praising them they shouldn't use the same over the top language, but that's your call. I'd goeven further & say, that if you know the people at Beresford, they should send some noted & respected people on this board, no I'm not one of them or even close, a free copy for them to try out. I'm petty sure if one or more of them had the same praise you guys had, alot of people on this board including myself would buy the product. I've already bought several items on this board I thought were rubbish based on hype by alot of people but I can accept that alot better then buying something based on the same 1-3 posters saying the same or identical things.

 

[pho_boi]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Herandu /img/forum/go_quote.gif Since when do the Chinese build any world class quality products?

how wrong you are, have a read on Shanling, Consonance, Ming Da, Jungson, Dussun. They all produce very good products and some even world class.

don't let the "MADE IN CHINA" stigma get to you, but you seem to have a bit of hate for Chinese gear. why is that?

 

[MiChael.]

Hey come on guys...

Almost everything is made in China, everything.
Probably your dad's new BMW have lots of parts made in China.
Especially anything what have to do with electronics.

So why ? Isn't it obvious that cheaper parts are made the more profits can be done.
Made in China doesn't need to be bad, but if you order bad & cheap you sure get what you deserve. They say "Why buy crap when you can DIY that".

I'd claim it's more about of the designer country and the quality control they are doing.

 

[Meyvn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MiChael. /img/forum/go_quote.gif Hey come on guys... Almost everything is made in China, everything. Probably your dad's new BMW have lots of parts made in China. Especially anything what have to do with electronics. So why ? Isn't it obvious that cheaper parts are made the more profits can be done. Made in China doesn't need to be bad, but if you order bad & cheap you sure get what you deserve. They say "Why buy crap when you can DIY that". I'd claim it's more about of the designer country and the quality control they are doing.

On a side note, while BMWs are not made in China, they're often not made in Germany; there's a big factory in Spartanburg, South Carolina. I love it when Americans criticise Ford, Dodge, and Chevrolet, and then talk about the excellency of "German-built" stuff.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jandl100 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Hi there - I'm one of the scammers that are hyping the Beresford TC-7510 DAC to a ridiculous extent. There's just one problem - it's not a scam and the Beresford DAC really is that good. Beresford even gives a money back guarantee, so why not try one and see for yourself? Think of all the $$$ you can pocket by selling your over-priced Mark Levinson / Krell & even Benchmark etc gear! I am one ecstatically happy customer - with no links whatsoever to Beresford except that, on a whim really I bought a DAC from him on eBay based on initial comments on this forum- I usually get expensive kit (see my photo of Avantgarde speakers and Musical Fidelity kit in a previous system of mine). I currently use it into about $10k of Kharma speakers - superb!

"No, I'm not a scammer, so you should buy one!"

 

[MiChael.]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meyvn /img/forum/go_quote.gif On a side note, while BMWs are not made in China, they're often not made in Germany; there's a big factory in Spartanburg, South Carolina. I love it when Americans criticise Ford, Dodge, and Chevrolet, and then talk about the excellency of "German-built" stuff.

Well it was just exsample not to say anything about BMW. Some of BMW's are nowadays made in Russian, dunno does it make them very street credible... it's car, not vodka and guns... nah just kiddin'.

But I dont believe much that even Goldmund gears parts are handmade in Swizerland, but those can be build in Swizerland, sure.

Anyway, it's so easy to fool people, marketing is evil, I'm not only talking about hifi. Still hifi have lots of voodoo.

 

[Herandu]

vs doing business, I think I am in a very good position to say how poor a lot of products are made over there. If it wasn't for our CE, WEE and RoHS regulations we would be swamped with a lot of dodgy goods from Nimbo etc. The latest scam coming out of China is coating steel with copper, and selling coax leads etc. made from that stuff as pure copper. i couldn't help noticing that the Beresford TC-7510 is CE approved, adn the PSU has VDE and TUV. When the Chinese DACs can produce equipment that is test approved to at least the same sort of level I shall take my chances and switch one on. Until then, I'll keep my fingers off the STANDBY button just in case I getan electric shock. I am not surprised that almost everyone of them is only supplied directly from the factory. It won't pass EU safety etc. regulations otherwise. The fact that someone can buy the TC-7510 on Amazon shows that least that it has eached a bigger stage and that the manufacurer is doing his best to reach more customers.I don't think Amazon would risk their reputation by taking on a dodgy product. I don't wish to comment on how he fixes his prices, but at least I know if I buy the item in the UK or any other EU member contry I won't get caned for import taxes etc. I hate hidden costs.

As for advertising: as I understand it the unit first hit the market in August. Before an item appears in a review in any of the UK magazine it might be 6 or more months after the reviewer wrote his original article. Anyone working in the magazine publishing business should have absolutelu no problem confirming this.
Who said that none of the magazines are not, or have not tested the unit for a future product test? I heard that the well respected HIFI magazine writer Jason Kennedy is actually testing one right now for a forth coming product comparison test, and that TNT Audio is also likely to do a review on it.

In the mean time, if anyone types TC-7510 in Google etc. you are of course only going to get the results of the posts that the initial buyers of the TC-7510 have made since it was first sold in August. To expect anything else just goes to show how much though has gone into the initial complaint of bias.

We come here to letothers know how good or bad a piece of equipment is that we have bought, or to ask others what we should consider looking at to buy. Anyone who then focusses their critique on that one product and makes cliams of a set up, scam etc. is more than likely being supported by another product manufacturer who is now worried their astronomical product margin mark up is going to get blown sky high. If I can get a PCB full of high-tech components in a DVD player costing less than U$100 in the shops, why would making a DAC with far less components, no DVD mechanism, no LCD or fluorescent display etc cost a small fortune to make instead? Makes no sense to me or my wallet.

 

[Hershon2000]

Once I see this product reviewed in several magazines with quite positive comments, I will consider buying one & will thank you guys on this forum, for the product. Until then, I will consider myself a sceptic.

 

[MiChael.]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hershon2000 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Once I see this product reviewed in several magazines with quite positive comments, I will consider buying one & will thank you guys on this forum, for the product. Until then, I will consider myself a sceptic.

That is quite entertaining, but somehow sad that you need magazines which only say good things about everything. I haven't seen much critical magazines, though the same thing goes with forums, people exaggerate differences, hype and praise things. Quite rare people actually have compared lots of stuffs to know how one differ from another.
Taste vary too and people are paying attention to different things.

Of course using sense is always welcome, if you think you are smart and others are stupid. You must then use "special filter" to read texts.

With your attitude you should end up buying lots of stuff, have you ever even looked how much awards equipments get ?

 

[Hershon2000]

You ought to be president of the United States with that outlook on things. If a bunch of magazines give a product bad reviews according to you, I should buy the product but if a bunch of magazines give a product good reviews, I should ignore it.