[rumatt]

I picked up a Scott Nixon USB Chibi Saru used here on headfi to play music over USB from my laptop. Here are my initial impressions:

I couldn't believe how much better the Chibi sounded than my existing equipment (Arcam 7SE CD player and/or the DAC's in my Outlaw 950 AVR). I wasn't sure if the little $250 Chibi could make that much of a difference, but I was immediatly impressed. It was so much clearer and had more detail. I finally felt like my speakers were being used to their potential (Paradigm Studio 60's V2). I plug the DAC directly in the amp, and use foobar to control the volume, and I found this to sound better than using the AVR as a preamp.

Next I got the Bel Canto DAC2. The first thing that stood out is that the noise floor is lower than the Chibi. With the computer volume all the way down, I can get right near the speaker and it's still pretty quiet. With the Chibi, there's some fuzz you can hear from within a few feet of the speakers.

But in terms of listening, the difference was smaller than I expected. I don't know whether the Chibi is really on the same level, or if I just can't hear the differences. I'm pretty sure the Bel has a lighter, more airy sound. But if you asked me to bet $10,000 that I could pick them apart every time in a double blind listening session, I'm not sure I'd take the bet.

So I'll probably keep the Bel and sell the Chibi, but man I wasn't expecting this given the cost differential. I'm of also picking up a Stello DA100 and/or Lavry DA10 to compare to the Bel. But if I can't tell the difference between a Chibi and a Bel, I'm wondering if there's much point.

 

[Mr_Sukebe]

I know what you mean, I have a Derek shrek NOS DAC with an uprated PSU and a BC DAC2. On a straight side by side dem, there doesn't appear to be much in it, though IMO the DAC2 has more detail.
What I didn't notice in a side by side dem was the extra involvement that the DAC2 achieves, not something I could spot with 30 second clips. It really needs a whole evening of listening to appreciate.

Whatever, do enjoy.

 

[rumatt]

OK, I'd like to follow this up with some more thoughts. I'm concluding that in some ways I prefer the Chibi over the DAC2. The DAC2 seems to have more detail, but it is very dry and airy, almost to the point of being too dry. The Chibi seems a bit more edgy, and possibly less detail, but it seems less dry and somehow more involving.

Is what I'm describing part of the difference in sound between oversampling (DAC2) and NOS (Chibi)? Would the Nixon Tube Dac maybe be the best of both worlds (like the Chibi but a bit less edgy?) I'm starting to question my ears if I prefer a $250 DAC over a $1300 one.

Also, I'm using a computer as source, and the Chibi has USB input with the I2S interface. When using the Bel Canto I'm using a Soundblaster Live 24 bit sounds card. Maybe that's part of the problem, but I have it setup to be bit-perfect, and the DAC2 is supposed to be pretty good with jitter. I even tried it with a Monarchy DIP, which didn't seem to make much difference.

 

[proglife]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rumatt I'm starting to question my ears if I prefer a $250 DAC over a $1300 one.

What?! Don't do that! Rejoice! Go spend the difference on a bunch of new music (or buy a turntable).

 

[mshan]

If Scott put the Chibi in a fancy enclosure, he could have probably priced it somewhat higher.

Look at the Wavelength Brick at like $1700.

 

[rumatt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by proglife What?! Don't do that! Rejoice!

Ha! Yeah, I'm not going to keep something just because it's more expensive. The problem is that I don't like one strictly better than the other. I like aspects of both, which makes me think I'd prefer a different DAC altogether.

Are oversampling dac's often described as more dry, airy sounding than NOS dacs?

 

[proglife]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rumatt Ha! Yeah, I'm not going to keep something just because it's more expensive. The problem is that I don't like one strictly better than the other. I like aspects of both, which makes me think I'd prefer a different DAC altogether.

I had a 1500 dollar Rotel player that didn't sound significantly better than my 50 dollar Toshiba DVD player. I sold the Rotel and got a Rega P3 with the money, which destroys any digital player I've had in my system.

 

[rumatt]

This quote from enjoy the music on upsampling vs NOS seems to match what I'm hearing. I'm wondering how much of it is also the sound card vs I2S interface though.


http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazin...ratory_dac.htm
Quote:

The end result is, the upsampled signal that comes out of your speakers supposedly has higher resolution. You hear more detail, there is a greater breathiness to the sound on your CD. As I stated earlier, done well, upsampling can sound very good. Done poorly, it can sound like cats mating. Upsampling can also bring the soundstage quite a bit more forward into your room. And yes, just ‘average' upsampling can be quite harsh, fatiguing and can have a definite digital sheen to it. In a back to back comparison between the two, non-oversampling can sound a bit dull and lacking in detail. But, after your ears become accustomed to the non-oversampled chip, you begin to understand that the presentation becomes far more relaxed and less aggressive. I hate to use this term but it sounds less forced. In essence, less digital sounding. Even though it isn't vinyl, it contains a few more of its qualities (IMO) than its higher resolution cousin, upsampling.

 

[mshan]

I think you've got good ears.

I believe the main virtue of the NOS DACS is that more analogue like ease that they are capable of.

re. the Scott Nixon Chibi, it doesn't have the sinc (or anti-sinc filter?) of some of his earlier designs, which boosts the treble response to make it sound more like what most digital sounds like.

Roll off could also be due to system interaction (input impedance of amp is below around 20,000), which is suboptimal for Scott's tube output bufferless designs, because the DAC directly drives the amp.

In terms of interconnects, I've found that Cardas cables seem to synergize well with Scott's dacs (I've only heard the Chibis). In my 2 channel rig, Cardas Crosslink II, while not perfect, really does many things amazingly well with the coaxial Chibi. Quadlink 5-C elaborated the soundfield much better, but in my system made the whole system just a little too full sounding. YMMV.

Other thing to make sure of if you're using Windows XP is to try and bypass Kmixer because it just seems to subtly garble everything and make everything less interesting.

 

[rumatt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mshan Other thing to make sure of if you're using Windows XP is to try and bypass Kmixer because it just seems to subtly garble everything and make everything less interesting.

Yes, I'm definitely bypassing the windows mixer using asio4all.

Does anyone have suggestions for other dacs that would be somewhere in between these two? I'd like a similar sound to the Chibi, but with a bit more detail.

Maybe eq'ing the DAC2 is an option.