[His Lorship]

Hello All.. Lurker's first post.

So I just scored a pair of HD6xx on Massdrop. I'm pretty excited. That leaves me with T-minus 5 months to find an amp and dac.

I don't really have a max budget, but I don't want to spend more than I need to... And I don't need the absolute best, second best would be ok for a couple hundred dollars less - but I like to invest in good quality gear that will last me a while. I have read dozens upon dozens of articles. I understand that the audio world is quite subjective, but there are some more popular choices.

I have amassed quite a collection of headphones / earbuds / headsets recently:

ATH-A990Z - Impulse buy I found on amazon for 99$ brand new I couldn't pass it up, should be arriving in the mail in a couple weeks..
Grado GR10E headset... I'm shocked a family member's friend gave me these new in box because I showed interest in them.. I usually use these plugged into my phone and I KNOW these aren't getting used to their potential. I will say they are clear enough to let me know how poor quality most music is - that is to say podcasts or similar sound incredibly grainy...
Sennheiser PC363D with the crappy dolby dac/amp 7.1 thingy. I usually leave 5.1/7.1 off because it sucks.
Sennheiser HD6xx just purchased can't wait.. Been eyeing this deal since I found out I missed the last one.
Sennheiser PC37x darn it another impulse buy, but I really enjoy the PC363D for gaming - more on that following... This seemed like a great deal for $120 and will absolutely replace my PC363D when they give out.

Main uses will be PC Gaming of all types (I do like CS:GO and shooters that require the directional audio). One of my main reasons for the second Sennheiser headset is because the directional audio is fantastic and the microphone is top notch - limited desk space and I don't really want to deal with a separate microphone. Being able to push the mic up to mute is awesomeness. I also will watch Netflix, Youtube, Pandora... Once I get the better headphones in I will probably be looking for more HD audio. I enjoy classical, bluegrass, classic rock, and some newer stuff along the way. I also really enjoy Pearl Jam / Soundgarden stuff I grew up with - yes, that dates me I'm sure.

I don't really care about mobile needs. Of course if I ended up with something like the dragonfly red I may take the Grados on the occasional plane ride - but I don't travel much and don't care enough to worry about it. Needless to say I also don't want to lose the $400 Grados - I'd rather carry the trash iPhone earbuds so I don't have to worry about breaking/losing them...

Now my questions...
1) Please provide recommendations for a one size fits all dac/amp? Either a stack or a combo? I have a laptop at work - I will leave one or two sets of headphones there that will probably need a dac/amp. My HD650 will probably end up being left at work being as I'm usually gaming on the home PC and the PC363/PC37X will be plugged in most of the time.
2) Can someone help me understand the diminishing returns a bit better. This is my primary reason for posting today. I understand it's subjective, but I would rather pay $200 less for 95% of the performance. I don't need top end and I don't have money to be wasting on the crem dela crem.
3) I'm patient. Should I look for used stuff?
4) Which amp/dac is my best bet for the PC 363D or 37x for directional audio??

The mobile option is appealing, but I don't really want to pay more than I need to. For example if I could get comparable sound from a modi/magni than to a chord mojo, I'll probably just deal with the hassle of the modi/magni.

Now.. What should I buy? FYI I'm leaning away from tubes at this point because desk room and I'm kinda afraid to break it or mess with it. I kinda want a set it and forget it and be blown away type option, although having a couple options like Xbass might be fun.

I am considering the ifi micro black label that is currently on sale at Adorama for $380 this would pretty much be the highest I'm wanting to spend. I like the "trans-portability" and also the Xbass feature. I'm not a bass head but the Sennheiser PC363D are a little weak and I'd like to fix that. I like having the option to bump the bass, and from reviews this Xbass is more than a gimic. It is appealing to me that this is "neutral", because for gaming, I absolutely rely on the developer's sound in game on directional audio (speaking of which is this my best option for that)?

I could maybe stretch it for the Chord Mojo but from all my reading this seems comparable to the ifi Micro BL, and I would rather save the $120. These don't seem to go on sale, ever.

Realistically I'd like to spend around $200 or less, which will lead to my following consideration - Modi/magni... Forums by and large say it's a great bang for the buck. That's what I'm looking for. I'd say at this point I'm considering spending the $200 and be done with it. How would this unit perform with the Grado or the ATH-A990Z? For the HD6xx, the consensus seems to range between "Good but it's not for me", and "The best thing since sliced bread. " I'm guessing it would be good enough for my needs and I'm comfortable with the price. How will this combo work for PC gaming with directional audio?

Dragonfly red/black might be a good buy for the Grados, and I could leave that one at work. Is there another cheaper option for the low impedence cans I have to improve laptop sound?

My other consideration is a Fiio of some kind. If one of you pros would recommend I start with the Fiio, I might go for it.

Thanks for reading this far. I leave these last thoughts... In all of this, what I don't want to do is buy something mediocre and regret it later. I've always been the type of person willing to spend another $100 for something good quality that will last a long time, rather than save a few bucks and be entirely disappointed. That said I don't need high teir, and to be entirely honest I will only use this stuff casually. I might be persuaded to buy a modi/magni stack now and buy a second one for home/work if I fall in love with it. I might just buy a cheapo fiio or dragonfly for the office and a Modi/Magni for the HD6xx. That may be more convenient than lugging around the ifi Micro BL...

Also, is there anywhere I can go to test some of this stuff before I jump off the deep end (I'm halfway there with the headphones anyway) and spend hundreds of dollars more on amp/dacs??

**Edit - Typos**

 

[PurpleAngel]

An Asus Xonar DX sound card, comes with Dolby Headphone surround sound and makes a fairly decent DAC.
(buy used off eBay)
O2 (Objective 2) head amp or Schiit Magni head amp, should be able to find one of these used on eBay.

Used amps for sale.
https://www.head-fi.org/f/forums/amplification-for-sale-trade.6551/

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Main uses will be PC Gaming of all types (I do like CS:GO and shooters that require the directional audio). One of my main reasons for the second Sennheiser headset is because the directional audio is fantastic and the microphone is top notch - limited desk space and I don't really want to deal with a separate microphone. Being able to push the mic up to mute is awesomeness. I also will watch Netflix, Youtube, Pandora... Once I get the better headphones in I will probably be looking for more HD audio. I enjoy classical, bluegrass, classic rock, and some newer stuff along the way. I also really enjoy Pearl Jam / Soundgarden stuff I grew up with - yes, that dates me I'm sure.

Now my questions...
1) Please provide recommendations for a one size fits all dac/amp? Either a stack or a combo? I have a laptop at work - I will leave one or two sets of headphones there that will probably need a dac/amp. My HD650 will probably end up being left at work being as I'm usually gaming on the home PC and the PC363/PC37X will be plugged in most of the time.
2) Can someone help me understand the diminishing returns a bit better. This is my primary reason for posting today. I understand it's subjective, but I would rather pay $200 less for 95% of the performance. I don't need top end and I don't have money to be wasting on the crem dela crem.
3) I'm patient. Should I look for used stuff?
4) Which amp/dac is my best bet for the PC 363D or 37x for directional audio??

Jut get a Strix Soar or Soundblaster Z if directional audio is the most important feature for you more than absolutely low noise, low distortion, high power output performance to go loud on practically every headphone out there.

 

[GREQ]

Soundcards are a total waste of money when gaming with headphones.
Directional audio is done by the game software.
Even a cheap "pcm2706" external USB DAC from china will sound fine for directional audio in games.

Get an external dac and amp that will follow you to your next system for the next couple of decades, instead of a soundcard that will become obsolete when the drivers stop working with the next operating system.

 

[His Lorship]

Thanks for your replies.. It seems most people are hesitant to speak to the diminishing returns factor when it comes to amps and dacs... Maybe because it's so subjective in the audio world?

Am I right in thinking an external DAC will not improve sound performance within games, other than minimizing the distortion or EMI/crosstalk? Or will a better Dac improve performance somehow by "separating" sounds, etc? This seems like the most technical and confusing question I can muster.

 

[His Lorship]

Soundcards are a total waste of money when gaming with headphones.
Directional audio is done by the game software.
Even a cheap "pcm2706" external USB DAC from china will sound fine for directional audio in games.

Get an external dac and amp that will follow you to your next system for the next couple of decades, instead of a soundcard that will become obsolete when the drivers stop working with the next operating system.

This makes sense to me, because sound cards do become obsolete when technology changes. In the same vein, would it be a horrible idea to purchase a higher end motherboard on a future PC build and use the on-board DAC. For example the new Gigabyte motherboards use Burr-Brown OPA1622 and LME49720... And then just buy a good amp?

 

[cossix]

I'll bring up diminishing returns. Going from motherboard sound card to dedicated dac and amp is amazing. Going from a Modi2/Magni2 to an asgard2/Bifrost is borderline subjective based on the headphones.

I'm going to help you make the right decision right here: Get either the O2, or the Modi2/Magni2 stack. That's it. Pick based on looks and size requirements. They're both amazing, versatile, and aren't expensive enough to be hit with diminishing returns yet. Magni2 is a powerful little guy that can drive the 650 so easily, and the Modi2 is quite possibly the only dac you will ever need in terms of sound quality. Positional audio is mostly influenced my headphones and in game programming, not the gear (although some bad motherboards will sound muddy which is bad of course).

TL DR

Get the Magni2/Modi2. You'll thank me

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Thanks for your replies.. It seems most people are hesitant to speak to the diminishing returns factor when it comes to amps and dacs... Maybe because it's so subjective in the audio world?

Because even before you can get to the highly variable and subjective question of how much one will pay for however little more he'd get, the question is whether a particular person will even hear that they're actually getting more.

I know people who can tune guitars by ear but can't hear any difference between their iPhone earbuds and the HD600.

Am I right in thinking an external DAC will not improve sound performance within games, other than minimizing the distortion or EMI/crosstalk? Or will a better Dac improve performance somehow by "separating" sounds, etc? This seems like the most technical and confusing question I can muster.

You won't even hear the difference between DACs when it comes to crosstalk performance or distortion levels (unless the amp is clipping) for gaming since you'd be too busy processing other stimuli and achieving objectives.