[JayG]

Isn't the Silverman set the one where they used Bosendorfer's high tech modern version of a player piano? If it's the one I'm thinking of, the pianist was not actually playing while the set was being recorded. He meticulously programmed his interpretation into the piano in a series of short clips, then went back over and "edited" it by fixing mistakes, changing note lengths and pedaling etc. to be exactly the way he wanted it to the millisecond.

Maybe I'm just old fashioned, but I don't want to support such endeavors. I know there is editing involved in all modern recordings, but I think they crossed a line. At least with the Rachmaninoff plays Rachmaninoff recordings that used similar technology, they were using it to make as close a recreation as possible of a performer who is no longer around to perform. But even in that situation, I think it's a risky precedent to set.

I don't look forward to going to the concert hall, sitting down in the front row of the balcony, and listening to a smart piano play "Rubinstein's interpretation" of the Chopin Nocturnes or the hot new Russian pianist's interpretations of the standard repertoire because he's too busy working in solitude to actually tour and do performances. That's not really a live concert. I'm not saying such a thing is likely in the near future, but only that we should be careful.

-Jay

 

[ProzacMessiah]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bunnyears Ronald Brautigam also has an ongoing cycle for BIS (SACD/hybrid) in excellent sound quality on fortepiano. His work is excellent. It's only too bad that you have to wait so long between recordings. I think he has 3 cds out so far. At approximately 1 per year, it will be another 7 or 8 years before the cycle is complete. Volume 4 will be released at the end of the month.

Hear, hear--on both counts. I'm loving this series as well, and am looking forward to Vol. 4. I don't have any complete sets of the sonatas, but I'm no longer looking for one after having found this one. I do wish the releases were more brisk, but there's plenty more great music to listen to in the meantime.

 

[Bunnyears]

Jay,

Actually, it's not the fact that it's recorded on the Bösendorfer recording piano that bothers me so much as the fact that I'm not sure that the sound quality is going to be so exceptional due to the hall, position of the piano, and the fact that it's a conventional stereo rather than hi-def stereo or sacd. I also haven't heard enough about Silverman's interpretations. I have seen the sonatas critically reviewed in 2 places including Fanfare which I no longer subscribe to ($50 per year is ridiculous) and at Audiophile Audition. The Audiophile review was not favorable to interpretation or sound quality! At GMG forum, Todd (the local Beethoven buff) gave the set a favorable review but he's not my "ultimate critic" by a long shot. If anyone has read the Fanfare review, please tell me whether it's favorable or not.

The fact that Bösendorfer may be able to reproduce exactly what a pianist plays on a piano in any room on a piano is actually attractive to me. Who knows, later down the line there may be better recording technology and they will have a piano played version that is identical to record from. Wouldn't I love to have something like that from Schnabel! However, what I have heard of player pianos doesn't really encourage me very much at all. This technology is very far from perfection. Besides, with the price of a Bösendorfer, I don't see player pianos being mass marketed anytime very soon.

More interestingly, has anyone been able to figure out how to order Joyce Hatto's recordings of the Beethoven sonatas or any other piano music? I can't find her recordings listed at any Amazon (USA, DE, UK), HMV or Towerrecords.

 

[seacard]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JayG /img/forum/go_quote.gif Isn't the Silverman set the one where they used Bosendorfer's high tech modern version of a player piano? If it's the one I'm thinking of, the pianist was not actually playing while the set was being recorded. He meticulously programmed his interpretation into the piano in a series of short clips, then went back over and "edited" it by fixing mistakes, changing note lengths and pedaling etc. to be exactly the way he wanted it to the millisecond. Maybe I'm just old fashioned, but I don't want to support such endeavors. I know there is editing involved in all modern recordings, but I think they crossed a line. At least with the Rachmaninoff plays Rachmaninoff recordings that used similar technology, they were using it to make as close a recreation as possible of a performer who is no longer around to perform. But even in that situation, I think it's a risky precedent to set. I don't look forward to going to the concert hall, sitting down in the front row of the balcony, and listening to a smart piano play "Rubinstein's interpretation" of the Chopin Nocturnes or the hot new Russian pianist's interpretations of the standard repertoire because he's too busy working in solitude to actually tour and do performances. That's not really a live concert. I'm not saying such a thing is likely in the near future, but only that we should be careful. -Jay

Yup, that's the one, done for Stereophile. I agree with you that we wouldn't want the live performance going the way you described, but I don't have a problem with my CDs being being technologically engineered, even to the extent that this one was. When I'm listening at home, I like having a cleanly played recording; besides, why not have a performer's perfect vision of how he thinks the sonatas should sound rather than "settling" for the best he/she could do in performance or two or ten? Silverman is a great pianist (he has played these sonatas live many times) and he did "play" the notes in this recording. It's not like you had Wes Philips or some other audiophile merely program the sonatas into the piano and have the piano play them.

I do understand where you are coming from, though.

Does anybody know whether Perahia is going to record a complete cycle? He has some very good recordings out, but isn't it time for one of the greatest pianists of all time to record this repertoire?

 

[seacard]

I don't have the entire fanfare review, but if you go to Silverman's own site (here), he has a quote from the review, which ends with "I recommend these as highly as possible." Also, the entire review is available "on request." Who knows whether the rest of the review is positive, but that snippet sure sounds like it.

All this praise of Brautigam recordings does make me want to try it out. I am just really concerned about a fortepiano thing -- I always thought they sounded just a bit smaller and slightly tinnier than current Steinways. Am I completely off here?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bunnyears /img/forum/go_quote.gif Jay, Actually, it's not the fact that it's recorded on the Bösendorfer recording piano that bothers me so much as the fact that I'm not sure that the sound quality is going to be so exceptional due to the hall, position of the piano, and the fact that it's a conventional stereo rather than hi-def stereo or sacd. I also haven't heard enough about Silverman's interpretations. I have seen the sonatas critically reviewed in 2 places including Fanfare which I no longer subscribe to ($50 per year is ridiculous) and at Audiophile Audition. The Audiophile review was not favorable to interpretation or sound quality! At GMG forum, Todd (the local Beethoven buff) gave the set a favorable review but he's not my "ultimate critic" by a long shot. If anyone has read the Fanfare review, please tell me whether it's favorable or not. The fact that Bösendorfer may be able to reproduce exactly what a pianist plays on a piano in any room on a piano is actually attractive to me. Who knows, later down the line there may be better recording technology and they will have a piano played version that is identical to record from. Wouldn't I love to have something like that from Schnabel! However, what I have heard of player pianos doesn't really encourage me very much at all. This technology is very far from perfection. Besides, with the price of a Bösendorfer, I don't see player pianos being mass marketed anytime very soon. More interestingly, has anyone been able to figure out how to order Joyce Hatto's recordings of the Beethoven sonatas or any other piano music? I can't find her recordings listed at any Amazon (USA, DE, UK), HMV or Towerrecords.

 

[Schalldampfer]

I could not stand Serkin. It was the second set of these sonatas I listened to, the first being that of Gerhard Oppitz's. Anyway, after the recommendations here, I guess I could give it a second listen.

 

[Rlynn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bunnyears /img/forum/go_quote.gif More interestingly, has anyone been able to figure out how to order Joyce Hatto's recordings of the Beethoven sonatas or any other piano music? I can't find her recordings listed at any Amazon (USA, DE, UK), HMV or Towerrecords.

I would order from MDTor Crotchet. Usually MDT has the cheaper prices, but in this case they are the same. The shipping charges are figured differently, MDT per CD and Crotchet per item. You may have to assemble your order and then use a currency converter. (Easy: http://www.xe.com/ucc/ or roughly 2 dollars to the pound.) I've ordered from both and gotten good fast service. I especially like MDT. A real person, with first and last name, responds to e-mails. I also like that you can order just one CD and pay the flat shipping rate per CD and I don't feel I'm "forced" to put together a big order. Much easier on the wallet. Current shipping is about $1.50 per CD. They often have special label sales. The CDs are priced at almost $21 each, so I'd inquire if any sales were anticipated.

 

[Bunnyears]

Quote:

Originally Posted by seacard /img/forum/go_quote.gif All this praise of Brautigam recordings does make me want to try it out. I am just really concerned about a fortepiano thing -- I always thought they sounded just a bit smaller and slightly tinnier than current Steinways. Am I completely off here?

Fortepianos don't sound like a Hamburg Steinway. They are for the most part, smaller instruments with very different sonics. However, they are the pianos that Beethoven was playing and the sonatas sound very differently with the older pianos. Some cannot get used to the difference in the sound, and cannot like the fortepianos. Others, such as myself, find the sound beautiful on it's own terms, especially the balances of the dynamics for treble and bass. The pedaling is also different as the dampers were not quite the same and the string, soundboard, and hammer construction was different. DarkAngel describes the sound as compressed, but that is not really an apt description. The tone is certainly softer, a little rounder (less crisp), and the forte range of the dynamics is smaller. This means that the outer ranges of pianissimos and fortissimo are closer (perhaps why he describes the music as compressed). Additionally, the actions on the fortepianos is less responsive than the Steinway while also being softer (easier to depress each individual key, but rebound of each key is slower) so phrasing changes very subtly. Another difference I can point to is a harshness of tone that can be gotten from Steinways with certain types of attack that I haven't heard on fortepianos. The tone of the fortepianos is to my ears, sweeter and mellower and less bright than most modern pianos. It's a different experience and if you really love the music you should try to at least sample the Brautigam as it's probably one of the best examples of Beethoven on fortepiano you are likely to find anywhere.

If you really would like to experience the best in historic performance, you could do no better than the Brautigam recordings and this particular recording of some of the Sonatas for Piano and Violin by Andreas Staier and Daniel Sepec. The fortepiano used by Staier for this recording is an exceptional instrument (with novelty sound effects so popular in that period) and the violin is one that was actually owned by Beethoven.

 

[Masolino]

In an article titled "Mozart and the Keyboard Culture His Time,"
(http://www.biu.ac.il/hu/mu/min-ad04/LevinMOZART.pdf) as
well as in the video essay which accompanies his recording
of the early Viennese sonatas by Mozart (K. 279-281), Robert
Levin actually stated that Viennese fortepianos are actually
much faster in response than modern Steinways - thanks to a
mechanism design that is utterly simple and only half as heavy as
that of the modern piano.

Viennese fortepianos (Stein, Walter, Schantz, Graf, Fritz, etc.)
therefore are perfect tools to bring out the subtle attacks and
articulations that the music of Mozart, Haydn, and Beethoven
(who utterly destroyed John Broadwood's gift, an English/French style
fortepiano, by having it altered to Viennnese actions) demands, though
as Bunnyears said, the overall RANGE of dynamics is certainly
smaller on fortepianos. Brahms did seem to love the fortepiano
sound as well, his last instrument an 1868 Streicher which
is a direct descedent of the Viennese tradition of keyboard
instrument building (the builder, son of Nannette Streicher,
who was herself the daughter of JA Stein.)

 

[lionel marechal]

Guys, I have a hammerklavier I got of the net, in which the adagio clocks at 23:53 and I have not been able to identify among the 35 versions I got.
Would you have any idea ?
The one I have who clock in the same ballpark (but do not match) are :
Lill at 24:43
Sokolov at 23:45
Thanks if you can help !
Lionel

 

[Bunnyears]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Masolino /img/forum/go_quote.gif In an article titled "Mozart and the Keyboard Culture His Time," (http://www.biu.ac.il/hu/mu/min-ad04/LevinMOZART.pdf) as well as in the video essay which accompanies his recording of the early Viennese sonatas by Mozart (K. 279-281), Robert Levin actually stated that Viennese fortepianos are actually much faster in response than modern Steinways - thanks to a mechanism design that is utterly simple and only half as heavy as that of the modern piano. Viennese fortepianos (Stein, Walter, Schantz, Graf, Fritz, etc.) therefore are perfect tools to bring out the subtle attacks and articulations that the music of Mozart, Haydn, and Beethoven (who utterly destroyed John Broadwood's gift, an English/French style fortepiano, by having it altered to Viennnese actions) demands, though as Bunnyears said, the overall RANGE of dynamics is certainly smaller on fortepianos. Brahms did seem to love the fortepiano sound as well, his last instrument an 1868 Streicher which is a direct descedent of the Viennese tradition of keyboard instrument building (the builder, son of Nannette Streicher, who was herself the daughter of JA Stein.)

I hadn't heard that. Most of what I read about the early actions led me to believe that they were slower than harpsichords and modern pianos as well as requiring greater pressure than harpsichords, and that one of the "modern" engineering developments peculiar to the Steinway was the increased speed of return over the older models of the piano. However, I can understand if early fortepiano actions, based as they were on harpsichord models would have a faster return than later pianos including the Steinway.

I also recall that one of the differences in tone was from the use of felt on the hammers rather than leather which was, I believe, one of the materials used to cover the hammers in the earliest models as well as the different coverings for the dampers that they experimented with. Whatever the case, fortepianos have a unique and to my ears very lovely tone and the different fortepianos all sound different -- not the way all modern pianos of the same brand sound the same.

 

[Masolino]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bunnyears /img/forum/go_quote.gif I hadn't heard that. Most of what I read about the early actions led me to believe that they were slower than harpsichords and modern pianos as well as requiring greater pressure than harpsichords, and that one of the "modern" engineering developments peculiar to the Steinway was the increased speed of return over the older models of the piano. However, I can understand if early fortepiano actions, based as they were on harpsichord models would have a faster return than later pianos including the Steinway.

Following Bunny's comment on fortepianos and harpsichords, let me quote Levin's praise for Viennese fortepianos in some length here (p. 9 in the linked article above):

"The precision and crispness of articulation of the harpsichord, whose plucking action is extraordinarily sensitive to the speed of attack, is mirrored in Viennese pianos (....) At the rear of the key an escapement aids repetition, and most pianos from the 1780s onward have a back check running just in front of the hammers, which are quite small and covered by leather. The lightness and simplicity of this design, together with the added velocity due to the reverse positioning of the hammers compared with the English-French-American design now standard, result in an action of great speed, sensitivity, precision, and efficiency based on a key dip and resistance weight some 50 percent of that of the present concert grand. The faster hammer velocity preserves the crisp articulation of the harpsichord, whereas the striking point—so close to the end of the sounding string—yields more focus to the sonority and gives Mozart’s expressive dissonances greater pungency. The lesser string tension of an entirely wood frame results in a more rapid sound decay.Moreover, the longer and more thinly wound bass strings have a lighter sonority, so that chords in the lower register are far more transparent than on later instruments, where such chords can easily sound muddy even without the pedal."

My apologies if the long quote seems off-topic to non-fortepiano fans.

A model of Stein fortepiano mechanism built by Philip Belt


Quote:

Whatever the case, fortepianos have a unique and to my ears very lovely tone and the different fortepianos all sound different -- not the way all modern pianos of the same brand sound the same.

This is very true if one compares various makes of Viennese fortepianos - Rosenberger, Graf, late Walter, Johann Fritz, Nannette Streicher, Johann Schantz, etc. - the best preserved specimens of their works tend provide the same delights of tasting "house-flavors" like various brews of liquor or wine. Not to mention listening to fortepianos from different decades throughout the nineteenth century, when the art of piano building underwent rapid changes like cars in the twentieth century.

 

[Bunnyears]

Masolino,

Many thanks for the Levin Article which I will print out and read again later with greater attention to the details, especially wrt tuning and temperament.

 

[ProzacMessiah]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Masolino [From linked article --PM] The lesser string tension of an entirely wood frame results in a more rapid sound decay. Moreover, the longer and more thinly wound bass strings have a lighter sonority, so that chords in the lower register are far more transparent than on later instruments....

I'm new to the sound as well. This and the rounder tone that Bunnyears makes reference to were what jumped out at me right away--the faster decay in particular.

 

[seacard]

Is there a difference between this Arrau set and this one? The former is about half the price of the latter, and includes the Piano Concertos as well.