[rodchenko]

Ok, so I have a number of questions I was hoping people could weigh in on. This is sort of related to headphones / amps and general discussion, so feel free to move it wherever it's supposed to go

I have a decent headphone set up, but I'm not sure this is really a question of brands.
Most music sounds fantastic, but when I'm listening to drum n' bass, the really low frequencies just don't have any impact.
Worse yet, they always seem to fuzz out completely.

It is a little better when plugged into a jmt amp than just through my Macintosh g4 soundcard, but not much.

I just was curious, from a technical standpoint, what is this fuzzing even caused by?

Do the headphones just need more power?
If I had a million watts of power, would everything be super tight and powerful?
Or is that just how headphones reproduce bass?
People on this forum have talked about "boom" - I don't know what they mean exactly. I'm LOOKING for boom. But The music's signal says "produce boom."
It does NOT say, "produce fuzzy whoopie cushion sound," which is - with a few songs - what I'm hearing.

Using itunes, I can't really do anything.
Using soundjam mp, I can shift the eq around to get a little better sound. Curious to hear people's experiences, especially DJ's and others who know what I'm trying to get at.

(ps., if anyone has the Hive track called "ultrasonic sound" throw that on and wait till the bass kicks in. that's what I mean)

 

[Gluegun]

Well, what exactly makes up your system? to the LETTER?

 

[joelongwood]

What headphones are you using? Speakers that are asked to reproduce frequencies that they are incapable or reproducing will also just kinda crap out and make noise.

 

[rodchenko]

Sennheiser HD 580's with a tested JMT penguin amp, gold plated connections, out of a mac G4. (I need an adaptor before I can run out of my home denon cd player)

but again, the vast majority of music is fine- gorgeous in fact. It's just the extremely low and powerful signals in some D&B songs that don't work out.

The reason I was asking the more general question is that a similar thing happened at a club last night, until they fixed the problem. You've got this 8 x 4 x 4 foot subwoofer cabinet in a fairly smallish room, powered by, who knows, 10,000 watts? And when it's "on" there's tight, powerful, (literally) floor and chest shaking bass. But when it got messed up for a time, it was just sounding like loud mush. I thought something similar might be happening in both cases, I just don't know what it is. For all I know, normal headphone setups may not be able to deal with these signals. But that seems drastic, since even my modest car stereo, when "dialed" correctly does a decent job (at low to moderate volumes.)

 

[Eagle_Driver]

rodchenko, I think I found the problem...

I think it's the cans (Sennheiser HD 580's) themselves. They weren't designed to handle loud, impactful bass at all - instead, they were rather "laid back" in their presentation.

So, if you want loud, impactful bass that sounds like boom, I recommend demoing some headphones intended for DJs (i.e. Technics, IXOS, Pioneer, Stanton and Sony headphones with the "DJ" label on the package

- and after demoing them if you still find the mids and highs on all of them sounding like crap, then the higher-end Grados (e.g. SR-225, SR-325) or the high-end Sony MDR-CD3000 will fill the bill.

 

[MacDEF]

EagleDriver, while the Senns are not the most "boomy" cans, I listen to electronica and they have very good, impactful bass when properly driven.

I have a JMT amp, and love it. But the 580s/600s are quite difficult to drive, and heavy bass is the most difficult part of the spectrum to drive. So I think that part of the problem is that an amp driven by a 9V battery just can't drive the Senns well enough for the kind of heavy bass he's trying to get.

The other problem here is one of perception. I just listened to "ultrasonic sound" by Hive, and it has some nice, deep, tight bass. However, it's not "boomy" -- as I said, it's TIGHT driven from a Max through both HD600s and MDR-V6 (THE "bass reference" headphone). If you're hearing that song "boomy," you're not hearing it *correctly.*

In other words, if you want to hear that Hive song boomy, you need a pair of inaccurate, boomy headphones.

 

[kwkarth]

Quote:

Originally posted by MacDEF ... as I said, it's TIGHT driven from a Max through both HD600s and MDR-V6 (THE "bass reference" headphone). If you're hearing that song "boomy," you're not hearing it *correctly.*

FWIW, the Beyer DT250s go deeper than the V6s and they're more accurate overall, top to bottom.

 

[rodchenko]

Quote:

Originally posted by MacDEF The other problem here is one of perception. I just listened to "ultrasonic sound" by Hive, and it has some nice, deep, tight bass. However, it's not "boomy" -- as I said, it's TIGHT driven from a Max through both HD600s and MDR-V6 (THE "bass reference" headphone). If you're hearing that song "boomy," you're not hearing it *correctly.* In other words, if you want to hear that Hive song boomy, you need a pair of inaccurate, boomy headphones.

Thanks MacDEF. Just FYI, I certainly don't want to hear it "boomy" if that means fuzzy or sloppy. But if you're getting that bass and TIGHT through the max with 600's (which I think most people agree are quite similar to 580's), then it's just a question of the amp.

SO - does this mean that those bass reponses are going to be better when driven by something with low impedence (grados, sonys) esp. with a small amp?

BTW - I'm kinda blown away by beagle on the other thread saying the AKG 501's have this killer bass - I thought the consensus was that those AKGs were WELL below the senns and even further below the Beyers in terms of bass end response.

 

[kwkarth]

Quote:

Originally posted by rodchenko BTW - I'm kinda blown away by beagle on the other thread saying the AKG 501's have this killer bass - I thought the consensus was that those AKGs were WELL below the senns and even further below the Beyers in terms of bass end response.

Here's the scoop on the Senns vs the AKGs;

The bass is tighter on the AKG's but is is also about 10db lower @ 20Hz than on the Senns.
Graph enclosed for your edification:

 

[Tomcat]

I have always felt that the Senns HD 580 (though better than the HD 600s) aren' all that accurate and impactful in the bass. kwkarth's recommendation for the Beyer DT 250 (80 Ohm) makes sense. They are fairly easy to drive and have very good bass response. There is a 250 Ohm version of the DT 250s, that Beyer says is even better than the 80 Ohm version, but I don't know it. The newer version of the DT 770s though - a bass-reflex design - seems to use similar 250 Ohm drivers, has slightly lower efficiency than the DT 250s but is a very linear and easily driven load, as well. The DT 770s work great right out of my PC. And they obliterate any notion of accurate bass response from the Senns HD 580/600 or the Sony CD 3000. They have more extension and impact than even the DT 250s - or than most speakers. The DT 770s have SLAM (as opposed to boom). They just might be what you are looking for, rodchenko.

 

[MacDEF]

Quote:

I have always felt that the Senns HD 580 (though better than the HD 600s) aren' all that accurate and impactful in the bass.

Tomcat, I know you're not a fan of the HD580/600, but I have to really disagree quite strongly.

First, the HD600 have very good bass when driven properly. It extends pretty deep (and flatter than most headphones), and it's tight and accurate. It doesn't extend quite as far as the MDR-V6/7506, but I have yet to find another headphone that does. The thing is that the 580s/600s require a *lot* of power. Their bass directly out of a portable/component is quite weak. Even out of a Total Airhead it's not very good. But driven properly it has some of the best bass I've ever heard.

Second, you've said many times that the bass on the 580s is better than the bass on the 600s. I'm not sure where that comes from, since they use the same drivers. In my experience (having owned both), the 600s actually have a bit better bass (which I attribute to the drivers being matched better, so the left and right drivers aren't "off").

One of these days I'm going to have to buy a pair of 770s just for kicks

You're the only person that I've ever heard describe them in as glowing terms. Everyone else I know that's heard both them and the 600s felt that the 600s blow them away in pretty much every way.

 

[Tomcat]

MacDEF,
having an extended bass response isn't everything, of course. But I have always felt, that - with headphones - a lack of extension and impact in the bass is indicative of a strangely sucked-out presence area, up into the mids. My main complaint about most headphones is, that they are far too bright and rob instruments of their body, that their tonal balance is just wrong. There might be more detail because of an exaggerated treble, but there is a price to pay for that. And I feel it's warmth, musicality, and involvement.

I am not sure whether it's because of similar reasons, but there are a few people who think that the Senns HD 580 are better than the HD 600. Mike Walker has said that, so has Daniel Pumphrey, and kwkarth has stated that the 580s are his favourite Senns, as well. The 600s might have the same - albeit better matched - drivers, but their enclosure is different. It is even more open than that of the 580s. And have you ever seen a sub-woofer in an open-baffle design? If a headphone is closed, it just seems to be easier too achieve a realistically warm and lush presence area and a realistic bass. I guess there is a reason, that my favourite open headphone, the Beyer 990 Pros, isn't completely open, it's semi-open. And I feel it's a lot more musical and enjoyable than the Senns.

kwkarth,
maybe you could tell us how you perceive the differences between the Senns HD 580 and 600? Help me, please. I don't want to get institutionalized alone.

 

[kwkarth]

Quote:

Originally posted by Tomcat kwkarth, maybe you could tell us how you perceive the differences between the Senns HD 580 and 600? Help me, please. I don't want to get institutionalized alone.

Who me?

I can't imagine what you're talking about!

Actually, I didn't live with the 600s for too long. Long enough to decide the following...

As virtually all good headphones have their strong points and weak points, I would have been tempted to hang on to the 600s IF there were more of a difference between them and the 580s. As it was, with the pair I had, they were ever so slightly darker in the mid-bass than the 580s, and sounded like they had more of a suck-out in the mid-range. Those qualities did not endear the 600s to me so as to cause me to want to hang on to them.

I have two pair of 580s that I have kept around because they each have endearing enough unique qualities about them for me to keep them both. One unit has a slightly brighter sound that I don't find unpleasant, although I don't listen to that particular pair too often.

You owe me Tomcat

 

[chych]

Hey rodchenko,

If you fed a million watts of power through any speaker or headphone, and they were aimed at you some way... well you would have just killed yourself through a speaker rail gun

It's not the quantity of power, its the quality, and the sensitivity of the headphone/speaker... you can have some horn speakers that will get deafiningly loud with only 1 watt...

And I'm listening to Ultrasonic Sound right now, sounds great off my etys... lots of bass... no impact, but the bass is there... You need something like a Grado or V6 or DT770...

 

[Tim D]

I thought he picked up some 770's already.