[limpidglitch]

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Why's that?
 
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Do you believe that all there is to know is what we can perceive ourselves, that whatever you perceive as reality is reality?
Do you believe that there is no alternative or underlying truth independent of your own perception?

 

[khaos974]

Assuming I found the right website, he's selling half a meter of cables/interconnects for 300 bucks.
 

It is a nice cable though, very good finish, elegant, very flexible... Way overpriced for me but considering it's Litz copper wire, I don't think there would be any bad surprise for the potential buyer beyond its price, which is known to all.

 

[Nom de Plume]

I must've missed the notion asserting that correct diction is now a branch of philosophy. Well, no reason to indulge in this further.
OT: I cast my vote for YogaFlame's first suggestion: "Sound Science - The facts and reasons behind what you hear."
 
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Ah, but you are trying to apply a strict definition.  When one says that subjective experiences trump or in fact are objective evidence, we could be said to be dealing with a subjectivist according to the not-so-narrow definition of subjectivist.  When one of these people makes a claim based on these subjective observations that they say is objective, that doesn't make the claim actually objective in the scientific sense.  Perhaps in the philosophic sense, but again we're talking science here and not philosophy (remember, this is the Sound Science subforum, not the Sound Philosophy one).
 

 

 

[Steve Eddy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by limpidglitch /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
Do you believe that all there is to know is what we can perceive ourselves, that whatever you perceive as reality is reality?
Do you believe that there is no alternative or underlying truth independent of your own perception?

When it comes to the enjoyment of reproduced music, I simply don't concern myself with such things. I go with whatever gives me the greatest enjoyment, whatever the underlying reasons for it may be.
 
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[elrod-tom]

Hmmm....where to begin? 

 
It might be instructive to understand why it is that things are as they are today.
 
Once upon a time, we made the decision as a moderating team to ban "DBT" discussion in the general discussion threads.  We did this for the same reason that we banned discussion of politics and the like - it tended to result in circular arguments, and got people pissed at each other for no productive reason.
 
The link is to a post that I did a while back on DBT discussion in the main audio forums.  It's intended to be funny, so please don't take offense. 
 
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/351849/the-objectivist-audio-forum/15#post_4587403
 
BTW - there was a time when we DID have a discussion thread for things political and the like.  Some of you may remember it - we called it "Take it Outside".  The intent was to compartmentalize the discussion of all these controversial things in one area where they could be discussed without turning the main discussion forums into a flame-war zone.
 
We also ended up getting rid of it...because it turned out that some people COULDN'T have an adult discussion of such things without getting angry.  It carried over into the other forums and was poisoning the well.  I don't see that happening here...provided that everyone continues to get along.
 
I'm sure some of you are thinking that it's somehow unfair that subjectivists (or whatever y'all want to call them) can come into this Sound Science forum and (in your view) thread-crap.  I would suggest that those who prefer not to discuss DBT on the merits ought to be avoiding this thread, just as we've asked those who do to refrain from discussing it in the other forums.  That said, we opened up this area with the intent of providing an place where these matters can be discussed, not so that discussion of the opposing opinion can be eliminated. 
 
Some no doubt feel that this puts the objectivist at a disadvantage, as he has only Sound Science, and the subjectivist has everything else.  Remember, this was supposed to keep circular arguments out of the main audio forums.  In the view of the mod staff this site is an AUDIO discussion forum, and if someone suggests that they can hear the difference between x component and y component, they ought not be subjected to "put up or shut up" at every turn.
 
So I guess I'd come down in favor of some kind of respectful "please be prepared to discuss your claims in more scientific terms" directed at the opposing camp, but not in favor of some sort of ban of "anti" DBT in the same way that there is a ban in other forums. 
 
My $0.02....FWIW...

 

[limpidglitch]

Quote:

When it comes to the enjoyment of reproduced music, I simply don't concern myself with such things. I go with whatever gives me the greatest enjoyment, whatever the underlying reasons for it may be.
 
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A relativistic sujectivist, then.
I think I understand your position, and I do at large share it.
I prefer listening to gear that looks good, but I am aware that there is a reason for this, and I know there is a reason why I find certain objects appealing. (why do I f.e., find the Amphora so hideously un-attractive?) It is sub-concious and largely out of my control, and to registrate it I need an alternative perspective, either a truly objective viewpoint or some form of normalised subjectivity.
 
All these fundamental processes might not be on my mind right there and then, but I am aware of them.

 

[Steve Eddy]

Quote:

A relativistic sujectivist, then.
I think I understand your position, and I do at large share it.
I prefer listening to gear that looks good, but I am aware that there is a reason for this, and I know there is a reason why I find certain objects appealing. (why do I f.e., find the Amphora so hideously un-attractive?) It is sub-concious and largely out of my control, and to registrate it I need an alternative perspective, either a truly objective viewpoint or some form of normalised subjectivity.
 
All these fundamental processes might not be on my mind right there and then, but I am aware of them.

 
Well, to put it as simply as I can, it's only the subjective experience, or gestalt if you will, that has any real meaning to me. I don't listen to reproduced music for the purpose of satisfying any objective goals. I listen purely for my own subjective pleasure. And I never attempt to pass off my subjective experience as anything more than that as I am well aware of the limitations of subjective perception.
 
Here's a quote from Robert Pirsig that I'm rather fond of:
 
The test of the machine is the satisfaction it gives you. There isn't any other test. If the machine produces tranquility, it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine or your mind is changed.
 
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[limpidglitch]

I liked that quote. Very apt.

 

[SpaceTimeMorph]

Quote:

 
Well, to put it as simply as I can, it's only the subjective experience, or gestalt if you will, that has any real meaning to me. I don't listen to reproduced music for the purpose of satisfying any objective goals. I listen purely for my own subjective pleasure. And I never attempt to pass off my subjective experience as anything more than that as I am well aware of the limitations of subjective perception.
 
Here's a quote from Robert Pirsig that I'm rather fond of:
 
The test of the machine is the satisfaction it gives you. There isn't any other test. If the machine produces tranquility, it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine or your mind is changed.
 
se

For the most part, I agree.  If you like the distortion provide by tube amps, for example, go for it.  Listen away because how you perceive the sound is the end product.  However, it is when people pass off this subjectivity as fact (which you have been gracious enough to refrain from, thank you Steve Eddy) that I start to have a problem with what they are saying.  Additionally, there are problems that can occur with a product that can only be measured and are impossible to hear.  I would think that if Robert Pirsig had ever had his speakers damaged by an improperly designed amp that sounded good, for example, he would agree with this.

 

[Steve Eddy]

Quote:

However, it is when people pass off this subjectivity as fact (which you have been gracious enough to refrain from, thank you Steve Eddy) that I start to have a problem with what they are saying. 

Absolutely. And I have problems with this as well. And it is those individuals who I think should not be called subjectivists, but rather pseudo-obejectivists. They effectively make objective claims but do not substantiate those claims with objective evidence.
 
Quote:

I would think that if Robert Pirsig had ever had his speakers damaged by an improperly designed amp that sounded good, for example, he would agree with this.

 
I suppose it would depend on the situation.
 
If there was some really bad music playing, then the speakers blowing would bring about tranquility. A good thing.

 
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[jcx]

I was disappointed that the ~ "why do tube amps have better 3D sound stage than SS" thread was pulled
 
other people were beginning to "deconstruct" the dense audiophoolish memes the op managed to pack into the short intro post
 
If the OP had remained engaged they might have learned something about a different world view - even if they weren't getting their ego stroked/connoisseurism "validated"
 
wandering in to Sound Science to ask questions, really listen to the responses is great - but learning can be uncomfortable compared to just hanging with fanboys and yes men echoing each other

 

[SpaceTimeMorph]

 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Eddy /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
If there was some really bad music playing, then the speakers blowing would bring about tranquility. A good thing.

 
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Touché... do you think he would have been speaking of this?
 

 

[Steve Eddy]

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Touché... do you think he would have been speaking of this?
 

Are you joking? The New Llama Song is absolutely brilliant! In fact, I would go so far as to say that it's nearly as profound as Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance.
 
Doorknob, ankle, cold.
 
Ponder that for a while and get back to me.
 
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[xnor]

I pondered about something completely different (censorship) and figured it's best to just leave this place.

 

[upstateguy]

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I'd be surprised if there were any real subjectivists here, and in any case arguments supporting such a views would be pretty obvious, and I therefore think there's little real potential for confusion. In principle I must say that I support Steves view on semantics and concise defininitions, but I've found large online forums poor platforms for these battles.

Personally, however, I like referring to them as 'believers', I just think it's more suiting.
 
Now, about banning ill-informed quasi-objectivist views in the sound science forum, I must say I disapprove.
Surely we have no trouble with ignoring abject provocative inanities in the real world, why should Head-Fi be any different? I think allowing for these sort of sentiments in the forum is an important part of the 'winning heart and souls' aspect of our mission, if you'd call it a mission. I don't.
 
And I find it truly irritating that NwAvGuy gets himself banned all the time. I wish he could just stop it.
 

Ban no one from Sound Science.  We can police ourselves.  If you are sick and tired of someone, all you have to do is stop answering them.
 
 
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Good idea!
 
"Sound Science - Where subjective experience isn't good enough"
 
"Sound Science - We demand objective evidence!"
 
"Sound Science - Where we don't care what you can hear when you're looking at it"
 
"Sound Science - Where tweako-cultists come to confess their sins"
 
"Sound Science - Audio homeopathists need not apply"
 
"Sound Science - Where measurements are correlated with audibility"
 
"Sound Science - Where we know you hear it, we just want to know why"
 
 
 
How's that for a start? 

Why bother?  The truth may be out there, but 'out there' is not in here.  And you guys know, If you push it to far, you're outta here.
 
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"Sound Science - Take the red pill"
 
"Sound Science - Welcome to the real world"
 

 

 
IIRC, taking the red pill got you kicked out of the Matrix.
 
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Originally Posted by Steve Eddy /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
*raises hand*
 
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"Wake me up when someone has something more than empty claims and amusing anecdotes to offer."  10:22pm. January 10th 2004.
 
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I pondered about something completely different (censorship) and figured it's best to just leave this place.

Bad idea.  No place to go................