Balanced vs. ?

[gregorio]

Not “snake oil”… I have both XLR and 4.4mm balanced. I never noticed less noise, but they definitely bring more punch.

That’s a contradiction, although you probably don’t realise it.

“Less noise” is the whole point of “balanced” (in long cable runs and high interference environments). HPs do not have long cables, are typically not near high interference sources but more importantly, virtually all HP drivers actually operate on the principle of differential (“balanced”) signalling anyway and therefore reject noise/interference picked up in an unbalanced HP cable, the same as in a “balanced” connection!

The only difference would be the higher signal level produced by a balanced (differential) signal. That would easily be perceived as “more punch” but could be duplicated by simply turning up the volume (to match) with a single ended amp/connection!

Most output devices that have XLR available for headphones also appear to have just one XLR for both channels, not a right channel XLR and a left channel XLR.
What am I missing?

Your question about the connectors has been answered but what you are maybe missing is the point above, that virtually all HPs are balanced anyway, even with an unbalanced signal/cable.

Remember previously I stated that in pro-audio (recording studios) we almost exclusively use balanced signalling? I said “almost” because there are some exceptions, HPs are one of those exceptions because they are effectively balanced with an unbalanced signal.

G

Edit: In other words, “balanced” is even more audiophile “snake oil” in regards to HPs than with other components. The only possible exception I’m aware of would be electrostatic HPs.

 

[Redcarmoose]

Also it can be up to your preference. Meaning on both the new Sony DAPs for 2022 the 1ZMK2 and the 1AMK2 as well as the 2016 MK1 versions the WM1Z and WM1A offer completely different amps for the 4.4mm and 3.5mm. The only 4 pin balanced I have is the Sony TA desktop.

To answer your question in this regard is rather confusing. If you go by simply subjective listening tests the 4.4mm in the 1A/1Z is noticeably louder than the 3.5mm. But that’s just marketing as it’s a totally different amp in both players and results in a slightly different personality. The 4.4mm has different capacitors and resistors too, thus making the amplifier different.

So even though it has more power the other noticeable thing is the tone differences!

The 4.4mm balanced has a slightly more contrast and punch.

This can be a double edge sword as about 90-98% of the time IEMs are actually better with the added contrast. Though there is always that IEM which at times sounds better with the slightly more laid-back output of the 3.5mm. Typically this could be all balanced armature IEMs but not always. It’s finding synergy with the whole combination end sound being important. Also that’s subjective too. But in a way it’s not. Meaning every once in a while you’ll hear of a member fully loving the 3.5mm single ended experience and it truly is more than just having less power, it’s the whole personality of single ended that has won them over.

I’m not so sure the difference in 4.4mm balanced to 3.5mm unbalanced is as noticeable with full-size headphones? At least with the Sony Walkmans?


Actually you may not know what you have till you try it, so typically I will use both if testing an IEM. Still most like 4.4mm. In my uses I never get much hum at all, so that part is a wash.

It is interesting as I have not purchased an adapter to take 4 pin and make it into 4.4mm balanced. Some say it’s better sounding with the TA. But I guess it’s a unit by unit thing. Meaning it may be a situation by situation thing.

4.4mm balanced comes in handy with portables as well as desktop due to companies offering a single solution for balanced inside the home or out. Also as far as portable goes they offer a more robust plug. But the single 4.4mm plug is now really taking hold of the market place primarily due to convenience. They should have somehow standardized balanced years ago! But it is what it is. I’m not saying which is best just reporting on market trends.

 

[ST33L]

That’s a contradiction, although you probably don’t realise it.

“Less noise” is the whole point of “balanced” (in long cable runs and high interference environments). HPs do not have long cables, are typically not near high interference sources but more importantly, virtually all HP drivers actually operate on the principle of differential (“balanced”) signalling anyway and therefore reject noise/interference picked up in an unbalanced HP cable, the same as in a “balanced” connection!

The only difference would be the higher signal level produced by a balanced (differential) signal. That would easily be perceived as “more punch” but could be duplicated by simply turning up the volume (to match) with a single ended amp/connection!

Your question about the connectors has been answered but what you are maybe missing is the point above, that virtually all HPs are balanced anyway, even with an unbalanced signal/cable.

Remember previously I stated that in pro-audio (recording studios) we almost exclusively use balanced signalling? I said “almost” because there are some exceptions, HPs are one of those exceptions because they are effectively balanced with an unbalanced signal.

G

Edit: In other words, “balanced” is even more audiophile “snake oil” in regards to HPs than with other components. The only possible exception I’m aware of would be electrostatic HPs.

I didn’t say less noise wasn’t the point of balance. I said I never noticed less noise. Going from SE to balance on my equipment has negligible effects to my ears. More punch is because of more watts, which can’t always be achieved by simply turning up the volume.

 

[gregorio]

More punch is because of more watts, which can’t always be achieved by simply turning up the volume.

I’m confused. What do you think “turning up the volume” is actually doing, if not increasing the gain/power output?

G

 

[ST33L]

I’m confused. What do you think “turning up the volume” is actually doing, if not increasing the gain/power output?

G

I know you are… turning up the volume doesn’t increase watts! If SE = 2 watts and balance = 6 watts, then you’re not going to get 6 watts out of SE no matter how high you turn up the volume, and will never achieved the tonality of balance.

 

[gregorio]

turning up the volume doesn’t increase watts!

What do you think turning up the volume does increase then?

If SE = 2 watts and balance = 6 watts, then you’re not going to get 6 watts out of SE no matter how high you turn up the volume, and will never achieved the tonality of balance.

If you need 6w but your SE amp only has a max 2w output, you’re using the wrong amp, you need a 10w SE amp! Isn’t that obvious?

What happens if you need 6w but only have a 2w balanced amp, is it still better than 2w SE amp? Would it be better than a 10w SE amp?

G

 

[ST33L]

What do you think turning up the volume does increase then?

If you need 6w but your SE amp only has a max 2w output, you’re using the wrong amp, you need a 10w SE amp! Isn’t that obvious?

What happens if you need 6w but only have a 2w balanced amp, is it still better than 2w SE amp? Would it be better than a 10w SE amp?

G

The only thing made obvious is that the quantity of posts doesn’t always mean quality

 

[gregorio]

The only thing made obvious is that the quantity of posts doesn’t always mean quality

Which is especially true if you deflect and don’t answer the question/s!

 

[Andrew_WOT]

Not all phones significantly benefit from higher slew rate of fully balanced amps. Some, like HD650 and most planars, do. The positive effect of better drivers control is there, audible and measurable (unlike effect from exotic cables).

 

[ST33L]

Which is especially true if you deflect and don’t answer the question/s!

… or the questions are gibberish

Edit: … and that’s the contradiction, although you probably don’t realise it.

 

[gregorio]

Not all phones significantly benefit from higher slew rate of fully balanced amps.

How can any phones significantly benefit from an increase in slew rate that’s already higher than the threshold of audibility requires?

The positive effect of better drivers control is there, audible and measurable (unlike effect from exotic cables).

If you’re going to talk about driver control, then you’re also talking about damping factor but then of course you’re arguing against balanced amps, as balancing doubles the amp’s impedance.

… or the questions are gibberish and nonsensical

Surprised you noticed! The questions are indeed “gibberish and nonsensical” but they’re ONLY gibberish because of course turning up the volume DOES “increase the watts”.

As you made the gibberish and nonsensical claim that “turning up the volume doesn’t increase the watts” then my question/s are entirely valid and you need to answer them to demonstrate that your claims are not gibberish and nonsensical!

G

 

[ST33L]

How can any phones significantly benefit from an increase in slew rate that’s already higher than the threshold of audibility requires?

If you’re going to talk about driver control, then you’re also talking about damping factor but then of course you’re arguing against balanced amps, as balancing doubles the amp’s impedance.

Surprised you noticed! The questions are indeed “gibberish and nonsensical” but they’re ONLY gibberish because of course turning up the volume DOES “increase the watts”.

As you made the gibberish and nonsensical claim that “turning up the volume doesn’t increase the watts” then my question/s are entirely valid and you need to answer them to demonstrate that your claims are not gibberish and nonsensical!

G

…

 

[geek707]

Surprised you noticed! The questions are indeed “gibberish and nonsensical” but they’re ONLY gibberish because of course turning up the volume DOES “increase the watts”.

As you made the gibberish and nonsensical claim that “turning up the volume doesn’t increase the watts” then my question/s are entirely valid and you need to answer them to demonstrate that your claims are not gibberish and nonsensical!

G

OP here, and not a EE, but I think you're wrong, or at least how you're phrasing what you're trying to get across is wrong.

 

[sander99]

OP here, and not a EE, but I think you're wrong, or at least how you're phrasing what you're trying to get across is wrong.

What he of course means is that as long as the amp is powerful enough then turning up the volume will increase the power that is going out of the amp. Plus that the need for a certain amount of power is never a reason to go for a balanced amp, you can always get a stronger single ended amp instead. Yes of course, if you have a balanced amp constructed of 2 bridged SE amps then the balanced amp ("the amp in balanced mode") has more power than one of the amps alone ("the amp in single ended mode"). (That is, in the case of current not being the limiting factor.)
The core of the matter is this: there are single ended headphone amps that are audibly transparent (meaning audibly perfect) with all the power you would ever need, so there is no fundamental reason to go balanced, there is nothing to gain that way.

That large groups of people think otherwise is due to marketing, supported by placebo effect, reviewers parroting after each other, the usual as with other audiopholery.

 

[Andrew_WOT]

That large groups of people think otherwise is due to marketing, supported by placebo effect, reviewers parroting after each other, the usual as with other audiopholery.

Or people having firsthand experience with systems providing both SE and BAL output and making own judgment on what sounds better?