Balanced vs. Digital

[comabereni]

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Originally Posted by Frenchman I realize this thread is a bit old but I think I might be able to suggest something neat thing for you. Your setup sounds exactly like what I'd do with one exception. There is no need for a local keyboard and mouse ever after the install. Simply install VNC or use XP Pros remote desktop. That will make things much easier for admin after the boxes are installed. This also means you don't have to reboot. Also, if you don't mind getting less MB for your buck but value the silence, grab some compact flash cards to install instead of hard drives. Part of their standard is operating at ATA devices so you can boot right off of them.

This thread isn't that old--I think I started it yesterday morning

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Ah yes, the remote desktop! This keeps getting better. And as for booting Windows from CF cards--yet another great idea, especially if all the remote PC's are playing from a central music server. This ensures almost dead silence (except for six tiny CPU fans turning behind a panel). I already estimated I can run 2 or 3 mini-ITX M/B's off a single, higher watt fanless PSU.

Thank you for your suggestions!

 

[Frenchman]

They sure get moved down fast

Another possible idea, if you mount the boards smartly (not a real word I don't think) you could mount larger heatsinks and cool them all off one or two larger slower turning (thus quieter) fans.

I was thinking putting them on two opposing mounting planes vertically, and then pushing the air from fans mounted between the planes at the bottom. I bet you'd get enough air moving with a single 120mm fan.

 

[Super-Gonzo]

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Originally Posted by aos I'd be careful before believing those claims...

Aos, You should read up a bit on the current consumer boxes before dumping on the whole market like that.

I have a Squeezebox, and I like it a lot. Currently the hardward can decode wav and mp3, and there are discussions of adding native FLAC decoding to the hardware. It plays FLACs (and other non-mp3/wav formats) by decoding them to wav on the server. All of this is configurable, so if network bandwidth is an issue, you can force it to transcode to mp3 instead of wav for any given file type.

The box is controllable either through its remote, or through a web interface, which is pretty slick. Or if you wanna go ultra-cool, you can control it through a wifi pda.

Even if you don't end up using a squeezebox, you might still consider using their software, Slim Server. Combined with a piece of software called softsqueeze, you can basically implement the functionality of a squeezebox on a pc. It's all open source stuff, so I'd encourage you to go download it and give it a try.

Here are some links to check out:

http://www.slimp3.com/pi_overview.html

http://www.slimp3.com/pi_features.html
http://softsqueeze.sourceforge.net

http://www.slimp3.com/pi_remotes.html

 

[comabereni]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super-Gonzo Aos, You should read up a bit on the current consumer boxes before dumping on the whole market like that. I have a Squeezebox, and I like it a lot. Currently the hardward can decode wav and mp3, and there are discussions of adding native FLAC decoding to the hardware. It plays FLACs (and other non-mp3/wav formats) by decoding them to wav on the server. All of this is configurable, so if network bandwidth is an issue, you can force it to transcode to mp3 instead of wav for any given file type. The box is controllable either through its remote, or through a web interface, which is pretty slick. Or if you wanna go ultra-cool, you can control it through a wifi pda. Even if you don't end up using a squeezebox, you might still consider using their software, Slim Server. Combined with a piece of software called softsqueeze, you can basically implement the functionality of a squeezebox on a pc. It's all open source stuff, so I'd encourage you to go download it and give it a try. Here are some links to check out: http://www.slimp3.com/pi_overview.html http://www.slimp3.com/pi_features.html http://softsqueeze.sourceforge.net http://www.slimp3.com/pi_remotes.html

Cool.

Too bad about this (Slim Player's FAQ): "You will get better audio output on Windows using the Direct Sound support. To do this you will first neeed to download and install Java 1.5. Next time you run softsqueeze in the preferences menu under Audio mixer you will be able to select Primary Sound Driver."

Kernel Streaming to my sound card under Foobar has opened my eyes. I practically get giddy every time I listen to music on my PC now.

Also, I'd really like to abandon WinXP for my project and go to something lean and cheap instead, but I'm not sure I can get everything talking together, never mind optimized, under a different OS. Sound card driver issues, music app output standards, etc.
_______________________________________

 

[Frenchman]

I agree. Linux would be a much better choice given it's small size and the possibility of using CF cards to store the OS. However, I'm in the same boat, I don't know if I could get everything working

 

[13405]

[deleted]

 

[tangent]

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Imagine, if you will, a stack of Squeezeboxes hanging on the wall, numbering anywhere from six down to two, in seven locations throughout my home.

You'd only need six of them in one place if all six people wanted to listen to different things. And if they want to listen to different things, why are they in the same place to begin with? I just don't see little Billy headbanging to Metallica in the same room where dad is listening to Chopin, especially since I see that you favor open design headphones.

No, what you need is one Squeezebox (or whatever) and a distribution amp. I'm not aware of any hi-fi distribution amps, but several designs have been tossed around here in the DIY forum over the years. The only reason someone hasn't made a PCB for one yet is lack of interest.

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My EE brother-in-law designs PC-based components and discussed the possibility of LCD displays (one per headphone jack) and simple up/down selector buttons to cycle through preset playlists (channels)

This is what I meant by my comment "turning PCs into consumer electronics". You're probably spending more on the motherboard, processor, and power supply than the Squeezebox costs, and you must still add these controls and encase it all.

And really, Windows?? It sounds like you're talking about maybe 20 systems here. You're going to effectively be a Windows network administrator for a LAN the size needed for a small business. Imagine when your audio network gets a virus. Or one of them starts crashing. Or they need Windows Updates. Bleh....when I come home, I do not want to administer a Windows network. I want to relax.

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You could always consider re-housing an existing solution.

Indeed. Inside each one of these network music boxes is usually just a single small board hooked up to all the panel controls. The power supplies are a lot smaller than those used even for mini ITX PCs. You could mount it all up just as easily as you would the PCs.

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Kernel Streaming to my sound card under Foobar has opened my eyes.

That's just a Windows sound system audio quality issue. The way you'd fix this with a network audio box is adding a DAC. This also addresses the RME card issue. Surely there's a DAC out there that has sound quality equal to the RME card fed by direct kernel streaming.

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IDE HDD per listening station, browser capability, remote email

My goodness, if that's what you're after, get a laptop!

 

[comabereni]

There sure are a lot of ways to do this!

Tangent:

Regarding Tangent's observation that it is unlikely six people will want to be in one place listening six different channels, I only have one place in my home where I want to do this... We have this huge sectional sofa where everyone seems to congregate, and pretty much perpetually. One kid will be doing homework on the end of the sofa while a couple others watch TV and the other one listens to the Samsung HDD player. I used to make them share PC's, but that got old listening to them whine: "When is it my turn--Taylor's been on the computer for 2 hours..." bah, I gave them their own PC's. I suppose I could make them sit in front of their computers and listen to music that way, but this project is more about dad doing a fun and cool project than anything else.

The idea about mounting the front panel of one of these boxes (Squeezebox?) to a master panel and then locating the board and PSU's behind the panel has merit. In fact, doing it mostly in the wall this way on an attractive master panel seems to be a good way to go.

Yes, I am looking at around 20 high-quality players by the time I'm done. I have considered portable HDD players several times--so much simpler, but they just don't do radio and by the time you add a DAC and quality amp, it's not portable any longer. So, stationary nodes it is.

As for the email, browser thing--I threw that in for fun. That would mostly be for the listening stations in the master bedroom. I already have a laptop and hate carrying it around, plugging it in, managing the battery, etc. I've got this bad habit of logging onto Head-Fi at 2:00am--I'd might as well do it from the permanent "music" station in the bedroom .

Oli:

I wonder what the slowest/cheapest PC/104 board would be that could still run Foobar effectively. I wouldn't care if required nearly 100% CPU so long as I could play any format and with any plug-in I desired. After all, these PC's wouldn't need to multi-task anything.

Thanks again for a lively and informative discussion. I respect you all.

 

[tangent]

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I wonder what the slowest/cheapest PC/104 board would be that could still run Foobar effectively.

MP3 software decoders started becoming popular when 486/33s were still common. Since that tme, a lot of effort has gone into optimization. Not all players are optimized for low CPU usage, but surely you can find one that is.

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these PC's wouldn't need to multi-task anything.

Well, they would to the extent that talking to the network and the sound card at the same time is multitasking. I point that out only because this rules out DOS and such. You need a "real" OS for this.

 

[13405]

A 486 based machine would suffice, but I beleive under most environments now and have the ability to play 320kbps mp3's / other formats (ogg, FLAC etc) I would recommend nothing less than around 133 mhz pentium based system. The reason being also that their is very little price difference between a 486 based pc104 board and a slow (relatively) pentium board.

This is basically what you are looking for, if you choose to take this route:

http://www.icop.com.tw/products_deta...?ProductID=153

fanless, flash disk bootable etc. I know your going to want this....

 

[comabereni]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oli A 486 based machine would suffice, but I beleive under most environments now and have the ability to play 320kbps mp3's / other formats (ogg, FLAC etc) I would recommend nothing less than around 133 mhz pentium based system. The reason being also that their is very little price difference between a 486 based pc104 board and a slow (relatively) pentium board. This is basically what you are looking for, if you choose to take this route: http://www.icop.com.tw/products_deta...?ProductID=153 fanless, flash disk bootable etc. I know your going to want this....

Any idea how much that is? What about a PCI interface to connect to a sound card, or would this require USB sound? (I don't know availability of high-quality USB sound cards). Or would I instead be looking at connecting this directly to a DAC via USB? I'm in the dark when it comes to USB sound.

Then there's the situation with poor USB implementation under Win98, which would be a lot cheaper OS solution for this project. I checked and there are Win98 drivers for cards like the Chaintech AV710, and probably for the EMU 1212m as well. Also, Foobar apparently runs under Win98 too, so that would save me some $$ on the OS component, but only if the mainboard permits connectivity to quality sound hardware.

If I do some stations going this micro-PC route, it would be interesting to boot directly off the network (if possible), or maybe use old/small/cheap 9.5mm HDD's designed for notebooks. But again, I need to understand these PC/104 boards better (USB limitations, Win98 limitations, etc.)

It occurs to me that I'm probably looking at all sorts of problems using any of these newer mini/micro mainboards under Win98, so maybe that isn't even a consideration.

I also see there take modules rather than simple pinouts. Makes sense--there's not much on the board, so you build it according to your specific needs.

Looks like another night of research...

 

[13405]

If you really want to use 98, I cant see any major problems cropping up. (As long as its Second Edition). You could use 98lite (google it), which would give you a SUPER minimal set which is what your looking for.

Although they support PCI, its in its own funny package. So the easiest route to take would be using the USB support with an external DAC. This will not be too much effort.

Price wise, they are going to work out per unit with a power supply in a similar price region than what you where looking to spend on those mini-itx boards all setup.

I advise you research thin clients, that kind of elementary function would be ideal.

 

[comabereni]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oli If you really want to use 98, I cant see any major problems cropping up. (As long as its Second Edition). You could use 98lite (google it), which would give you a SUPER minimal set which is what your looking for. Although they support PCI, its in its own funny package. So the easiest route to take would be using the USB support with an external DAC. This will not be too much effort. Price wise, they are going to work out per unit with a power supply in a similar price region than what you where looking to spend on those mini-itx boards all setup. I advise you research thin clients, that kind of elementary function would be ideal.

Okay.

PC/104 is interesting. These things look almost like iPod guts, only with more versatility. And if the PC/104 makers have written drivers for Win9x (and will do USB elegantly), then a few of these could work for certain areas (like in the kitchen where space is at more of a premium).

That said, size isn't my primary consideration in most areas of my home, quality of sound and cost are. I could probably bury six full-size ATX motherboards behind a long panel in the wall in most areas, along with everything else required, and for a lot less money than mini-form factor PCs. The reason I'm considering mini/micro-PC's in the first place is that I suspect the sonic benefits due to less electrical and RF noise are worth pursuing. I also think I read somewhere that Foobar wants around 800 Mhz or so to do its magic, so I need to learn more about that as well.

Finally, Tangent's recommendation to look into commercial players really does make a lot of sense for several locations in my home where convenience of installation and ease of use are paramount (like in my kids' rooms).

Thanks again for your help and recommendations.