[4N6]

Quote:

Originally Posted by vcoheda /img/forum/go_quote.gif that's what the FS forum is for. i see no reason to be single ended anymore at least for home use, esp. since by mid this year there should be some or more relatively affordable balanced amps on the market - both tube and solid state. also, in my experience headphones find additional improvement through recabling. whether recabling from stock SE to aftermarket SE is worthwhile is debatable. except for a few custom made SE amps, i see SE amps as entry level (in terms of cost and performance) and balanced as entry into high-fi. basically, the only legitimate reason i find for single ended use is lack of funds, which is a big reason, but not for sound quality or performance. in that regard, balanced is clearly better.

I agree. If I had to do it all over again, from the beginning I would have went straight for the balanced rig as my main system, especially if I planned on centering it around the HD650's. It was hard being patient, however.

With that being said, I get a TREMENDOUS amount of musical enjoyment out of my SE 840C/Cary/DX1000 system. I have no idea if the JVC's would scale well by recabling and going balanced. Never much said about this and I love what I hear from the stock setup.

 

[catscratch]

I'm using the HD650 in my rig out of a push-pull speaker amp, with a SE source. In essence, I'm getting the benefits of push-pull operation but not getting the benefits of a balanced signal.

The difference between this and a single-ended HD650 is enormous. It's a completely different headphone. Whereas the SE HD650 is dark, laid-back, and excessively bassy, the push-pull HD650 is forward and aggressive, with a tight bass, delicate highs, and a prominent midrange. It is very quick and keeps up with fast, layered music well, which is usually the downfall of dynamic headphones in general and Senns in particular. Impact is almost concussive, and soundstage is enormous. Instrument separation is as good as I've heard in a dynamic headphone, and detail, while not quite up to par with top-tier electrostats, doesn't embarrass itself next to pretty much any system.

I doubt that this is the end of the road for me, and I think I'll be coming back to 'stats, and fairly soon (with the SR-007, 4070, or EH1.2b), but for the time being, this is the first dynamic rig that I've thoroughly enjoyed without much reservation - and normally, I hate the HD650.

 

[vcoheda]

Quote:

Originally Posted by catscratch /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm using the HD650 in my rig out of a push-pull speaker amp, with a SE source. In essence, I'm getting the benefits of push-pull operation but not getting the benefits of a balanced signal.

what's the termination on the 650?

 

[kool bubba ice]

Quote:

Originally Posted by catscratch /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm using the HD650 in my rig out of a push-pull speaker amp, with a SE source. In essence, I'm getting the benefits of push-pull operation but not getting the benefits of a balanced signal. The difference between this and a single-ended HD650 is enormous. It's a completely different headphone. Whereas the SE HD650 is dark, laid-back, and excessively bassy, the push-pull HD650 is forward and aggressive, with a tight bass, delicate highs, and a prominent midrange. It is very quick and keeps up with fast, layered music well, which is usually the downfall of dynamic headphones in general and Senns in particular. Impact is almost concussive, and soundstage is enormous. Instrument separation is as good as I've heard in a dynamic headphone, and detail, while not quite up to par with top-tier electrostats, doesn't embarrass itself next to pretty much any system. I doubt that this is the end of the road for me, and I think I'll be coming back to 'stats, and fairly soon (with the SR-007, 4070, or EH1.2b), but for the time being, this is the first dynamic rig that I've thoroughly enjoyed without much reservation - and normally, I hate the HD650.

Enormous? I noticed a good improvement but I wouldn't call it enormous.. I guess your set up is better then mine.

 

[4N6]

Quote:

Originally Posted by catscratch /img/forum/go_quote.gif ...The difference between this and a single-ended HD650 is enormous. It's a completely different headphone...

Not my experience, either. Improved? To a degree. "Enormous" difference? In my listening where the ONLY difference was the headphone cable termination, certainly not. It was still the HD650, but with tighter bass and more spatial ambience.

Maybe the "enormous" difference experienced had other factors involved besides just balancing?

 

[catscratch]

Right now the termination is 4-pin XLR. It's hooked up to the speaker amp via an AKG female 4-pin XLR to speaker leads adapter.

The difference is enormous in my experience. I never heard the HD650 with a SE amp that drove it to a passable level of performance. I suppose that if I had a good SE HD650 rig in the house already I wouldn't be so amazed at the difference. The best I've heard the HD650 SE on was a Raptor, and that was very far from what I'd call "good," much less "perfect." Still, what amazes me the most is the character of the current system, which is very un-HD650-like. It's forward and aggressive, with a prominent midrange, and is completely missing the tubby and sluggish bass and overall bass coloration that always plagues the HD650 in most systems.

Maybe it's the synergy. I don't think the Rega Planet 2000 is a particularly good component, it's just good for the price. I can definitely hear quite a bit of grain to its sound, and its performance at the frequency extremes leaves a lot to be desired. I'll be swapping in an 840c soon, which should be quite an upgrade. The Dared VP-20 though is a very nice piece of kit. Aggressive and quick sounding, warm with a bit of tube bloom but without excessive sluggishness or tubbiness in the bass. I can't wait to hear what it can do with a good pair of 'stats via an SRD-7 Pro transformer box.

 

[OracleGuy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dreadhead /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well I've got about a week into my HD 650's and all I can say is wow . I'm driving them balanced (HR stock cable, no I am not "upgrading" to a Zu) from the outputs on a Benchmark DAC1 USB and I'm truly impressed.

Hey, welcome to the club! I love mine as well. I never tried balanced without the Zu (Mk I) cable, but this setup definitely lifts the Sennheiser veil. Awesome bang for the buck.

Did you change the attenuation using the jumpers inside your DAC-1? I changed mine to 0 dB. They get killer loud if the volume knob is turned past ~9:00.

If I had the money I'd shell out for a good balanced amp, but I keep wondering how much better it could get.

 

[greggf]

There are no "enormous" differences of any kind between any of the headphones or headphone amps or sources listed in my past equipment sig.

There are differences, but they are very subtle, very much a matter of personal taste, and they can be very, very expensive if one upgrades-upgrades-upgrades in a compulsive chasing of one's own tail. Woof-woof.

All hobbies - and internet hobby forums - toss around the word "enormous."

I think the problem is that we want hobbies to be exciting. We want life to be - always - interesting and compelling. Usually life is a lot more mundane than that, which is a very good thing. And, usually and appropriately, the headphone hobby is about music, not equipment, a fact that seems to deflate a lot of people.

If you want to toss around the word "enormous," the way to do so is to say that there is an enormous amount of psychological literature out there discussing the role of the pursuit of narcissistic perfection (in headphones and headphone equipment, in our case) as a guarantee that one will never experience true contentment.

Isn't contentment via stasis - gear we can quietly live with and enjoy for a very, very long time - our goal?

As soon as one understands that the word "enormous," at a place like Head-Fi, means "small," one is getting wiser!

I think, in order to become contented, an electrostat man should go dynamic, a balanced guy should "upgrade" to single-ended, tube folks should go transistor, and transistorized head-fiers might want to plug their cans directly and indiscriminately into any old hole that they can find in any old integrated amp or receiver. HD650ers should seek HD600s, HD580ers should sell and get HD595s instead, Omega guys should buy 4070 systems, DT990ers should seek out DT770s, sell your K701s for K601s, and so on. Shoot for below perfection. Shoot for spending less than you can. And then refuse to change kit. This is where happiness is. Being content with a "less" that really ain't less when it comes to the music. (And which often, actually - and very ironically - makes the music warmer, more musical, or fun.)

Contentment, ho!

Shoot for "good-enough," as opposed to "best"!

Shoot for one or two steps below what you can afford (or below what you can get credit for, or can weasel out of your wife, or whatever).

I really do believe that once one gets less driven, the music sounds much, much better, and the subtle but annoying differences between pieces of gear becomes more and more, thankfully, irrevelant.

 

[catscratch]

Or, you really could hear a bigger improvement in going balanced than you ever did between one single-ended amplifier and another, and compared to that, the difference would indeed be "enormous," and the usage of said word is not out of place if you consider the implied context.

[Edit: Contentment via stasis is not my purpose. My goals here are twofold: 1) to build a system that does justice to the music, and 2) to discover newer and better sound en route to the mythical goal of audio perfection. Obviously, the goal doesn't physically exist, but it's not what I'm after. It's the discovery of newer and better sound along the way that is the ultimate reward. I don't see differences in audio gear as subtle and annoying, I relish and enjoy them, as long as they really are differences in presentation and not outright problems. Also, emotionally enjoying the music and analytically enjoying the system are not mutually exclusive mindsets. There is a time and place for both.

Besides, I'm an audio pessimist, at least in the sense that what I'm after in a system is not any kind of preternatural excellence but an absence of any irritating technical shortfalls, together with a very specific, subtle and melodic coloration. When the system doesn't have any overt flaws, it tends to disappear and leave the music behind, and in so doing, it fulfills goal #1.

Furthermore, I believe that forcing myself to accept a lesser system as a method for finding contentment is a very destructive way of approaching the problem. I would much rather not delude myself, be honest about the system I have at hand, and enjoy the pursuit of audio perfection for what it is. Perfection may not exist in the end, but that doesn't mean that I while I'm on the road, I can't enjoy the ride.]

 

[greggf]

catscratch,

you say,

"When the system doesn't have any overt flaws, it tends to disappear and leave the music behind."

My response would be,

"If it disappears and leaves the music behind, then you have a naked bad recording (as the vast majority of recordings tend to be) - one that is not enjoyable."

I'm not trying to be difficult or confrontational here. I'm trying to square my experience with yours. It may not be possible in the end, but that's okay.

I had Quad loudspeakers. To exaggerate, they were GREAT with the few well-mastered, well-recorded CDs that I owned. They made 99% of my CDs sound worse than "cheaper" speakers did.

My experience is that we - or at least I - want to find "good enough" equipment, gear that IS high-end, but not so high-end that it fails at its ultimate purpose, which is providing the most entertainment and musical enjoyment per dollar or effort.

Resorting to extraordinary tech - and by that I mean tubes, electrostatics, balanced headphones - or by spending more $$ seems to get more detail or resolution, but less satisfaction.

Isn't there a better balance?

In some headphone or headphone amp review, Wes Phillips mentioned that he didn't care for a balanced Senn set-up because it was too clinical-sounding. He said the same about a Stax. That was my experience with some Stax gear.

I think we do noobs a disservice if we make them think that your vision of the hobby is the ultimate or only one. It's also one that I think can bankrupt, both financially and, perhaps psychologically and morally, others who are perhaps too lost at sea to have accurate reality testing.

I know and respect your idea of the hobby. It was, and still is to a great extent, mine as well.

It's just that what I'm experiencing, right now, via a purposive pulling-back from perfection, is too good not to share. It might even make you happier, if you tried it - the same way that you think that I or others might be happier if we went balanced!

 

[4N6]

Quote:

Originally Posted by greggf /img/forum/go_quote.gif There are no "enormous" differences of any kind between any of the headphones or headphone amps or sources listed in my past equipment sig. There are differences, but they are very subtle, very much a matter of personal taste, and they can be very, very expensive if one upgrades-upgrades-upgrades in a compulsive chasing of one's own tail. Woof-woof. All hobbies - and internet hobby forums - toss around the word "enormous." I think the problem is that we want hobbies to be exciting. We want life to be - always - interesting and compelling. Usually life is a lot more mundane than that, which is a very good thing. And, usually and appropriately, the headphone hobby is about music, not equipment, a fact that seems to deflate a lot of people. If you want to toss around the word "enormous," the way to do so is to say that there is an enormous amount of psychological literature out there discussing the role of the pursuit of narcissistic perfection (in headphones and headphone equipment, in our case) as a guarantee that one will never experience true contentment. Isn't contentment via stasis - gear we can quietly live with and enjoy for a very, very long time - our goal? As soon as one understands that the word "enormous," at a place like Head-Fi, means "small," one is getting wiser! I think, in order to become contented, an electrostat man should go dynamic, a balanced guy should "upgrade" to single-ended, tube folks should go transistor, and transistorized head-fiers might want to plug their cans directly and indiscriminately into any old hole that they can find in any old integrated amp or receiver. HD650ers should seek HD600s, HD580ers should sell and get HD595s instead, Omega guys should buy 4070 systems, DT990ers should seek out DT770s, sell your K701s for K601s, and so on. Shoot for below perfection. Shoot for spending less than you can. And then refuse to change kit. This is where happiness is. Being content with a "less" that really ain't less when it comes to the music. (And which often, actually - and very ironically - makes the music warmer, more musical, or fun.) Contentment, ho! Shoot for "good-enough," as opposed to "best"! Shoot for one or two steps below what you can afford (or below what you can get credit for, or can weasel out of your wife, or whatever). I really do believe that once one gets less driven, the music sounds much, much better, and the subtle but annoying differences between pieces of gear becomes more and more, thankfully, irrevelant.

Very philosophical.

Now, on Mel Brooks' "History of the World, Part I," what did the Romans call "philosophers?"

 

[Bizzel]

Quote:

Originally Posted by greggf /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think we do noobs a disservice if we make them think that your vision of the hobby is the ultimate or only one. It's also one that I think can bankrupt, both financially and, perhaps psychologically and morally, others who are perhaps too lost at sea to have accurate reality testing.

I don't think you're giving new members enough credit there. Everyone finds their own path naturally depending on their attitudes, experience and, sometimes more importantly, the size of their wallets. Head-Fi is a vast resource with enough differing opinions that every member can form their own vision of the hobby, regardless of who tells them what's best.

Anyway, we're way off topic here. What other cabling options exist for balanced drive other than the Apuresound V3?

 

[nfusion770]

Quote:

Originally Posted by barmar46 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm listening to hd650/balanced equinox cables using the Headroom Balanced Amp/Dac w/home module. The sound is amazingly rich and three dimensional. The 650s balanced don't even resembled their former shadow of a self. It does seem to me however that Headroom hardly gets a mention and very few props for this fine sonic contribution. Why is that?

I wonder that myself. Less hype I guess. Most people would do well to start here and work up if need be.


Quote:

Originally Posted by greggf /img/forum/go_quote.gif There are no "enormous" differences of any kind between any of the headphones or headphone amps or sources listed in my past equipment sig. There are differences, but they are very subtle, very much a matter of personal taste, and they can be very, very expensive if one upgrades-upgrades-upgrades in a compulsive chasing of one's own tail. Woof-woof. All hobbies - and internet hobby forums - toss around the word "enormous." I think the problem is that we want hobbies to be exciting. We want life to be - always - interesting and compelling. Usually life is a lot more mundane than that, which is a very good thing. And, usually and appropriately, the headphone hobby is about music, not equipment, a fact that seems to deflate a lot of people. If you want to toss around the word "enormous," the way to do so is to say that there is an enormous amount of psychological literature out there discussing the role of the pursuit of narcissistic perfection (in headphones and headphone equipment, in our case) as a guarantee that one will never experience true contentment. Isn't contentment via stasis - gear we can quietly live with and enjoy for a very, very long time - our goal? As soon as one understands that the word "enormous," at a place like Head-Fi, means "small," one is getting wiser! I think, in order to become contented, an electrostat man should go dynamic, a balanced guy should "upgrade" to single-ended, tube folks should go transistor, and transistorized head-fiers might want to plug their cans directly and indiscriminately into any old hole that they can find in any old integrated amp or receiver. HD650ers should seek HD600s, HD580ers should sell and get HD595s instead, Omega guys should buy 4070 systems, DT990ers should seek out DT770s, sell your K701s for K601s, and so on. Shoot for below perfection. Shoot for spending less than you can. And then refuse to change kit. This is where happiness is. Being content with a "less" that really ain't less when it comes to the music. (And which often, actually - and very ironically - makes the music warmer, more musical, or fun.) Contentment, ho! Shoot for "good-enough," as opposed to "best"! Shoot for one or two steps below what you can afford (or below what you can get credit for, or can weasel out of your wife, or whatever). I really do believe that once one gets less driven, the music sounds much, much better, and the subtle but annoying differences between pieces of gear becomes more and more, thankfully, irrevelant.

I tend to agree. I know this is a forum for enthusiasts, but people would be wise to recognize that enthusiasm is often the most colorful component in the chain.

 

[jh4db536]

if it makes a person choose between liking it and hating it, that may qualify as enormous.

How is the HD650 with a Graham Slee Solo? That is the one single ended setup that i want to audition. This pair is a setup that i believe works completely on synergy.

I don't believe it is Only balanced that helps the 650. Although it is a large factor in the whole equation. I believe synergy in the amp and source have a lot to do with it too.

 

[vcoheda]

Quote:

Originally Posted by catscratch /img/forum/go_quote.gif Or, you really could hear a bigger improvement in going balanced than you ever did between one single-ended amplifier and another, and compared to that, the difference would indeed be "enormous."

i generally describe the difference from SE to Bal as a "noticeable improvement," which in audio is pretty significant, so i entirely agree with your comment.