Bach: Keyboard Works

[Masolino]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bunnyears /img/forum/go_quote.gif Hi Masolino, I don't precisely know what you mean by "dorky." Do you mean he looks like a nerd when performing or that his interpretations are the musical equivalent of prosy, boring and over-informative? Dorks are usually clumsy and maladroit, but I would never say that about Levin's playing no matter how "different" the interpretation. (using the dorkiest of smilies here.)

I guess I didn't use the right word then?

Levin's interpretation always strikes me as clever, intelligent even ingenious but definitely short on the lyrical or sensual side. Or should I say it lacks the kind of dynamism or "expansiveness" that people usually associate with great performers. To the wrong ears, he can be trivializing and annoying.

Quote:

I'll have to look up his Bach. Meanwhile, I've just found a copy of the Tafelmusik's Mozart 6 Symphonies after Serenades. Still looking for a period recording of the Archduke Trio and Kakadu Variations (almost had the Castle Trio's recording although I'm told London Fortepiano Trio did a better job).

The Mozart set is a great find if you like Bruno Weil's conducting style! For the Archduke I have the Castle Trio (and L'Archibudelli) and think both of them are very nice -- even though I prefer the recorded sound on the latter.

 

[Bunnyears]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Masolino /img/forum/go_quote.gif I guess I didn't use the right word then? Levin's interpretation always strikes me as clever, intelligent even ingenious but definitely short on the lyrical or sensual side. Or should I say it lacks the kind of dynamism or "expansiveness" that people usually associate with great performers. To the wrong ears, he can be trivializing and annoying.

Yes, now I see what you mean. I have the L'Archibudelli Archduke trio and it is excellent. The Castle Trio were originally on EMI, so that really says it all wrt the sound quality. Are you familiar with the London Fortepiano Trio? I've been trying to pick up their Beethoven for quite some time without any luck at all.

Don Satz has said that Levin's English Suites are heavy (or ponderous), but that his WTC is excellent, and that the use of the three different instruments is "distinctive and a definite plus." I think I may pick that up as I want to gain greater appreciation of organ music. Who knows, one of these days I might regret passing up the Sweelinck. I always seem to regret the things I have passed up and some of the things I have forked over the dollars for as well.

Quote:

The Mozart set is a great find if you like Bruno Weil's conducting style! For the Archduke I have the Castle Trio (and L'Archibudelli) and think both of them are very nice -- even though I prefer the recorded sound on the latter.

Yes, I do like his conducting style for Mozart, Haydn and Schubert. I recently acquired Tafelmusik's new release of Mozart's 40,41 and Beethoven's 5,6 Symphonies and they are really well done. For anyone who feels that period instrument orchestras cannot give a big enough sound, these recordings are the proof that they can. They are excellently well done and I have no hesitation recommending them. Hopefully these won't slip out of the catalog as quickly as most HIP recordings do.

 

[Masolino]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bunnyears /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yes, now I see what you mean. I have the L'Archibudelli Archduke trio and it is excellent. The Castle Trio were originally on EMI, so that really says it all wrt the sound quality. Are you familiar with the London Fortepiano Trio? I've been trying to pick up their Beethoven for quite some time without any luck at all.

Thanks for the effort taken to understand my point. Levin can be "weird" for those not familair with his ways with music, but, as I just read in an article about the author Kurt Vonnegut, "weird" and "creative" can be two sides of the same coin, and I think that applies to him. I have the original Castle Trio Archduke and it was actually a Virgin Verita release. The sound quality isn't optimal but not awful either - close miked and a bit on the cold side, which is how many HIP recordings in the early 1990s sound. I haven't heard any London Fortepiano Trio recordings; they are on Hyperion and so on the expensive side, no?


Quote:

Don Satz has said that Levin's English Suites are heavy (or ponderous), but that his WTC is excellent, and that the use of the three different instruments is "distinctive and a definite plus." I think I may pick that up as I want to gain greater appreciation of organ music. Who knows, one of these days I might regret passing up the Sweelinck. I always seem to regret the things I have passed up and some of the things I have forked over the dollars for as well.

There are other sets of WTC with mixed instrumentation of harpsichord, clavichord and chamber organ. I have Daniel Chorzempa's set that does that, and I agree it is refreshing to hear music that way. But be aware that some of the "organs" used on sets like these are definitely small-scale ones and they don't sound like the grand organs at all. Besides Sweelinck there are other later composers whose music you might want to hear also: Louis Couperin's music for organ is sublime played on French baroque organs. I will want Davitt Moroney's complete set on Temperament someday, but it is Jan Willem Jansen's disc on Virgin Verita that makes me desire more. Froberger and Frescobaldi also get played a lot on grand organs and sound easily as good as on the harpsichord.

 

[Bunnyears]

I believe the London Fortepiano Trio does record on Hyperion. All of their Beethoven is oop, and they only have one recording (of Mozart Piano Trios) in the catalog at present, which is too bad.

 

[Masolino]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bunnyears /img/forum/go_quote.gif I believe the London Fortepiano Trio does record on Hyperion. All of their Beethoven is oop, and they only have one recording (of Mozart Piano Trios) in the catalog at present, which is too bad.

Chances are, those Beethoven trio recordings will be re-released cheaper in the Helios series - so not all hopes are lost

Hyperion is currently pushing the non-period Florestan Trio series, and that's why the period instrument versons are being suppressed at the moment. The Beethoven by Castle Trio isn't complete anyway without the Op 70 recorded for the Smithsonian label. But their Virgin 2-fers are well the asking price imo, so grab them particularly if you see them used.

For Mozart trios, I am quite satisified with the Mozartean Players on HM. No idea why they never wanted to record Beethoven. Is it because of their name??

 

[Bunnyears]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Masolino /img/forum/go_quote.gif Chances are, those Beethoven trio recordings will be re-released cheaper in the Helios series - so not all hopes are lost Hyperion is currently pushing the non-period Florestan Trio series, and that's why the period instrument versons are being suppressed at the moment. The Beethoven by Castle Trio isn't complete anyway without the Op 70 recorded for the Smithsonian label. But their Virgin 2-fers are well the asking price imo, so grab them particularly if you see them used. For Mozart trios, I am quite satisified with the Mozartean Players on HM. No idea why they never wanted to record Beethoven. Is it because of their name??

You think that Mozarteans might only be interested in Mozart? And yet the Stadler Quintet did record quintets dedicated to Mühlfeld.

While the Florestan Trios recordings are superb (I have almost everything they have recorded), I doubt we should stop at just one recording of any particular work. Besides, I have grown to appreciate the sound of the gut strings and the now unfashionable portamenti. Imagine if everyone only performed Shakespeare's plays in modern dress! I have to admit I would dearly love to see either The Tempest or Twelfth Night in period costumes with an all male cast.

I would love to get the Castle Trio's Archduke trio/Kakadu Variations 2X, but it has been "deleted from the catalogue and no further copies are available" according to the email I received from a British vendor who had listed them where I tried to purchase them. I suppose they will either be re-released or not. I'm not getting my hopes up; Decca has never re-released the Immerseel/Schröder Beethoven violin sonatas -- only the one Kreutzer/Spring cd. It's really a shame that the HIP recordings are so neglected. Similarly, it's impossible to get a copy of the Hogwood/AAM recording of Haydn's Creation, which by all accounts is the best recording made of that work in English.

 

[Masolino]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bunnyears /img/forum/go_quote.gif You think that Mozarteans might only be interested in Mozart? And yet the Stadler Quintet did record quintets dedicated to Mühlfeld. While the Florestan Trios recordings are superb (I have almost everything they have recorded), I doubt we should stop at just one recording of any particular work. Besides, I have grown to appreciate the sound of the gut strings and the now unfashionable portamenti. Imagine if everyone only performed Shakespeare's plays in modern dress! I have to admit I would dearly love to see either The Tempest or Twelfth Night in period costumes with an all male cast. I would love to get the Castle Trio's Archduke trio/Kakadu Variations 2X, but it has been "deleted from the catalogue and no further copies are available" according to the email I received from a British vendor who had listed them where I tried to purchase them. I suppose they will either be re-released or not. I'm not getting my hopes up; Decca has never re-released the Immerseel/Schröder Beethoven violin sonatas -- only the one Kreutzer/Spring cd. It's really a shame that the HIP recordings are so neglected. Similarly, it's impossible to get a copy of the Hogwood/AAM recording of Haydn's Creation, which by all accounts is the best recording made of that work in English.

Dear Bunnyears,

I am sorry to see you so disappointed. But things often fare better than "impossible" provided you are willing to spend the necessary means

On ebay there is a copy of the Hogwood "Creation" for sale but you will have to get it in from Germany and at an inflated price; I will PM you the link if you are interested. My Immerseel/Schroder Beethoven set is actually on the DHM label; is your "Spring""Kreutzer" disc on the Decca label? Interesting. Finally, MDT in UK still lists both Castle Trio 2x - is there a chance that they do still have these? http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product//5620072.htm

 

[Bunnyears]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Masolino /img/forum/go_quote.gif Dear Bunnyears, I am sorry to see you so disappointed. But things often fare better than "impossible" provided you are willing to spend the necessary means On ebay there is a copy of the Hogwood "Creation" for sale but you will have to get it in from Germany and at an inflated price; I will PM you the link if you are interested. My Immerseel/Schroder Beethoven set is actually on the DHM label; is your "Spring""Kreutzer" disc on the Decca label? Interesting. Finally, MDT in UK still lists both Castle Trio 2x - is there a chance that they do still have these? http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product//5620072.htm

Thanks for the link to MDT. I'll know very shortly whether it's in stock or not.

And yes, I've checked and the kreutzer is DHM, which is one of the Sony labels.

 

[Masolino]

Malcolm Bilson at Cornell produced a dvd called "Knowing the Score" mainly to promote fortepianos in the US. The DVD costs $50 and will not be affordable to me anytime soon. But I ran into a 7-min. excerpt from it on Paul McNulty's musician page http://www.fortepiano.eu/fr/musicians.htm (scroll down the bottom and left click Mr Bilson's face to download the avi clip) where he compares a 1870s Steinway and a 1780s Walter copy to very obvious effect. Watching the clip certainly makes one feel curious about what else is in the DVD. BTW. the webpage looks like a Who's-who of fortepianists and period instrument players, with lots of pictures to show just how popular McNulty's instruments are.

 

[Bunnyears]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Masolino /img/forum/go_quote.gif Malcolm Bilson at Cornell produced a dvd called "Knowing the Score" mainly to promote fortepianos in the US. The DVD costs $50 and will not be affordable to me anytime soon. But I ran into a 7-min. excerpt from it on Paul McNulty's musician page http://www.fortepiano.eu/fr/musicians.htm (scroll down the bottom and left click Mr Bilson's face to download the avi clip) where he compares a 1870s Steinway and a 1780s Walter copy to very obvious effect. Watching the clip certainly makes one feel curious about what else is in the DVD. BTW. the webpage looks like a Who's-who of fortepianists and period instrument players, with lots of pictures to show just how popular McNulty's instruments are.

Thanks for the link! I am still debating whether to get the Bilson Cornell Beethoven sonata cycle. I'm just wary because they are played by so many different students and while some may be excellent, others may not be so. Also, I've heard confusing and conflicting information about the sound quality. Then again, who has more famous students than Malcolm Bilson? So many fortepianists of note nowadays have studied with him.

 

[Masolino]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bunnyears /img/forum/go_quote.gif I am still debating whether to get the Bilson Cornell Beethoven sonata cycle. I'm just wary because they are played by so many different students and while some may be excellent, others may not be so.

Exactly. I heard it was, like the Briliant Classics Haydn sonata set, a pretty mixed bag. Wrt recorded sound, people do respond differently - some obviously loving a resonant sound and others disliking it (how else did we end up getting Paul Serkin's fortepiano Beethoven as if he were recording in a bathtub?) so it seems like the Bilson set has a fairly "wet" sound, which may or may not be to one's liking and actually detracts from the virtues (a clean separation between registers) he extols of fortepianos in the video. I haven't heard any of Brautigam's Beethoven but I am sure the "edges" in the sound are much better preserved in those recordings. They are very present in the three Paul Komen discs I have obtained so far, and I have had a good time in hearing Beethoven's music as some kind of polyphony where each strand is audible.

ps. I was just reading Christophe Huss's review on Viviana Sofronitzki (daughter of Vladimir) complete Mozart concerti on the fortepiano, where he said a less than ideal recorded sound also spoils what otherwise could have been a rather good cycle. http://www.classicstodayfrance.com/r...ReviewNum=1981

 

[Bunnyears]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Masolino /img/forum/go_quote.gif Exactly. I heard it was, like the Briliant Classics Haydn sonata set, a pretty mixed bag. Wrt recorded sound, people do respond differently - some obviously loving a resonant sound and others disliking it (how else did we end up getting Paul Serkin's fortepiano Beethoven as if he were recording in a bathtub?) so it seems like the Bilson set has a fairly "wet" sound, which may or may not be to one's liking and actually detracts from the virtues (a clean separation between registers) he extols of fortepianos in the video. I haven't heard any of Brautigam's Beethoven but I am sure the "edges" in the sound are much better preserved in those recordings. They are very present in the three Paul Komen discs I have obtained so far, and I have had a good time in hearing Beethoven's music as some kind of polyphony where each strand is audible. ps. I was just reading Christophe Huss's review on Viviana Sofronitzki (daughter of Vladimir) complete Mozart concerti on the fortepiano, where he said a less than ideal recorded sound also spoils what otherwise could have been a rather good cycle. http://www.classicstodayfrance.com/r...ReviewNum=1981

I haven't heard the Brilliant Classics Haydn, so can't comment, but the Brautigam Beethoven has immaculate sound quality. It's not often that a solo fortepiano sounds so clean and warm. The accoustic is very natural, especially in SACD. Brautigam's performances so far have been similarly exemplary. If the whole set continues as well as these first volumes, it will probably become the fortepiano reference. Of course, Staier hasn't recorded a complete cycle yet, but there is plenty of room for more HIP cycles.

I really don't know whether I have a preference for wet accoustics over dry ones. I do know that if it's done well, the reverb really can add wondeful space to a recording. If it's done badly, then all of the details seem to become mushy and indistinct. Similarly, if an accoustic is too dry, the details can be too prominent and the sound can become very dry and harsh. I think the truth is that when the sound is done well, it doesn't matter if it's wet or dry. When it's done poorly, we can too easily see how it's too wet or too dry, too closely miked, too recessed, etc.

Anyway I'm still hesitating over the Bilson Cornell cycle, and will probably dither until it goes out of print at which point I'll just HAVE to have it.

 

[Masolino]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bunnyears /img/forum/go_quote.gif Anyway I'm still hesitating over the Bilson Cornell cycle, and will probably dither until it goes out of print at which point I'll just HAVE to have it.

I suggest that you act soon if only the complete set is acceptable. The box is still listed at the Claves website but apparently out of stock at most online vendors I checked on, both in US or in Europe. A selection disc of four sonatas played by Bilson, on the other hand, seems available everywhere. There are even mp3 examples available.

 

[Bunnyears]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Masolino /img/forum/go_quote.gif I suggest that you act soon if only the complete set is acceptable. The box is still listed at the Claves website but apparently out of stock at most online vendors I checked on, both in US or in Europe. A selection disc of four sonatas played by Bilson, on the other hand, seems available everywhere. There are even mp3 examples available.

I seem to feel as if I'm being shoved and pulled by an irresistible force. And, I may be able to pick up that set for a lot less...

I hate bargains sometimes. It makes me feel obliged to get something even if I'm not sure whether I'll enjoy it.

 

[Masolino]

We are talking about Beethoven in a Bach thread! Maybe it's time to get into recordings of Bach organ works! I have seen Helmut Walcha's older mono semi-complete set re-released on DG Archiv. And it seems to be available on cheaper (pirated) forms as well. Those who prefer Klemperer's "granite" way with Bach should pick this up - it is superior to his later stereo as far as I can tell. It is mostly recorded on the Arp Schnitger grand organ (1680, in SS. Peter and Paul, Cappel, originally in Hamburg) and it's a wonderful instrument which has almost survived intact from the seventeeth century.




Even in mono sound, it is a quality recording that captures the instrument's very wide range of tone colors made possible by the changing registration schemes throughout the set.