[k1n0n3]

That's the whole problem! You wanted to simplify the discussion down to the point of saying; it's all just magic. That doesn't wash here on this sub-forum, even this point seems too complex for you to understand. Oh and BTW, just because a comment is above your "it's all magic" level of understanding does not make it "smart ass"! Can't say I'm the least bit surprised at your response, it's the usual audiophile response to simple facts; just ignore it and move on to a different audio area which really is based on magic because you and your mate heard it.


1. There is no evidence that anyone on the planet can tell the difference, so that would be about 1: 7,400,000,000, not one in a million.

2. I've worked on a number of "literally world class" systems, in some of the world's top recording studios. No one, in any of these studios, can tell a difference. In fact the matter was dead and buried before it even started because those people actually know how audio works. These multi-million dollar world class studios use $2.50 connectors and $2 per foot cable because that's the best there is.
So, your flea market option is the only real option left on the table!

G

Since you were quoted, I couldn't help but read your amazingly scientific reply, and reply one last time.

The whole problem is you, not this discussion, I seemed to have carried on with others just fine, but you, trying to insult and belittle people in your replies makes it smart ass, not my level of understanding. Me simplifying the discussion to its "all just magic" was in a direct reply to you asking if that was what I thought, clearly sacrasm, or is that too complex for you to comprehend, here in this scientific sub-forum ?
You are not in the least bit surprised, and shouldn't be, not because of the usual "audiophile" (which I never claimed to be, but was apparently labeled by you) response, but because you should be used to people walking away from a discussion with you, as they simply rather not tollerate your feeble attempts at trying to make yourself sound superior.

Let me ask, since you listed your impressive pedigree as an audio engineer.
In these multi-million dollar world class studios, were you ever involved in the design process or given some kind of a budget to operate on?
Did you pick out the monitors and midfields, if so, how were they chosen and why. Was each set measured with science or magical fairy dust audiohile ears ? Was it before or after acoustic treatment of the space?
Same question for the rest of the gear.
At which point were high end cables compared to $2 per foot mogami's, which part of the chain, digital or analog cables ?
Was it a scientific or monetary decision to have multiple 20 meter runs to a booth of $2 per foot cable with $2.50 terminations ?
Does it matter to an audio engineer if a cable sounds better or not when he/she is working a mix down that should translate and sound good on the lowest common denominator - a cheap home stereo?
Does it matter to the client who commissioned the work of the studio whether high end cables are used, or is it more a concern of a proper mastering of the audio and how much profit it will bring in?

 

[k1n0n3]

And my point is that this doesn't give you some general absolutism by which to categorically dismiss those "theory based" arguments as you'd like to imply.  You're trying to avoid an argument by writing it off as invalid based it falling into some generally flawed category  without regard to specifics.  You're trying to short circuit the conversation and it just doesn't fly. 

There is no general absolutism here that lets you categorically dismiss such criticisms as invalid or useless. Back to the counter top example... yes absolutely you can dismiss a claim of a product without trying it, based soley on "theory" (or lack there of) with no experience at all.   Gold door knobs in my kitchen can't make cymbals sound sharper in my living room stereo.  I don't have to try it to dismiss it "on theory".   If someone is going to make a claim that extraordinary, we can say without trying it, and until they've proved otherwise, that it's MUCH more likely to be false than true, where much means somewhere on the probability levels that the sun will rise tomorrow.  You proposed a theory by which to broadly dismiss the validity of theoretical arguments and I've provided counterexamples to your argument that prove your theory of dismissing theories to be faulty. 

Now, if you want to argue about the validity of theoretical criticisms of cable claims.. that's fine, but you don't get to just categorically dismiss all such arguments based on people not having tried it themselves, without regard to anything else, well not validly.

I am not trying to avoid the argument, I am simply stating that someone with actual experience of a cable has more right to claim whether it's good, bad, or doesn't do anything different at all than another cable vs. someone that had read numerous whitepapers and has a clear understanding of audio and electrical engineering, and a master's degree, or whatever, or none of that, and is simply regurgitating comments and factoids made by others, yet never tried said cable whether on their own system or even at a show where it is available to the general public.

Speaking of broad theories that you can dismiss does not apply here. You are saying your gold door knob in your kitchen can't make cymbals sharper on your living room stereo. Discussing cable's effects in nowhere near the same thing, unless someone is claiming that their $1000 cable neatly tucked under their mattress in their bedroom is giving them a taughter bass line in their home theatre.
If we're discussing different types of screws being used to install said doorknob, or different lubricants to assist with its operation, that is much closer to home.

Using your analogies, if I told you that water hose "a" connected to my kitchen faucet a made tap water taste better than hose "b", measuring the same gpm output, water has been put under a microscope and measures the same amount of particulates, or whatever else can be scientifically compared. Would you simply dismiss my claim, as it is theoretically not possible, or would you have to try it for yourself ? If all the measurements are the same, yet the water clearly tastes better, aside from being subjective and placebo, etc., could that reveal that a measurement is missing?

 

[ctsooner22]

LMAO....I can already measure his response.  I actually respect the fact that he doesn't measure any differences.  I was just taking back over time how often new measuring devices have come to market with newer technology to measure things we couldn't measure in the past.  Not just in audio either.  Being a retired Naval officer, I lived with and around mostly engineers of every type.  My daughter is an Astro and Nuclear Physicist.  I love having conversations with her.  The one thing that I enjoy is the fact that she has her theories about dark matter and string theory and wants to live her life proving it.  I also love that she's an artist (has owned her own clothing company since she was 13 and had to start doing her own taxes at 16).  She's also been on The Voice.  She listens to both sides of her brain and she clearly hears differences with various changes I do with my system.  
 
I've been amused by this thread and some of the responses. I feel badly for people who are condescending to others with conflicting views. I  really cuts down on the future.  I wonder who someone like this can explain things in the future when we CAN measure new and different things that conflict with the past???  
 
Condensing is the perfect word for some of these post.  Maybe these folks aren't able to measure everything because technology isn't there.  Tons of transducers measure the same and sound totally different.  You can't say it's because of different materials, because wires are the same way...different materials are used as are different processes. 
 
Have fun together on your we are right and you are idiots and wrong because we can make measurements look anyway we want to, at least until new measuring tools come out and we can measure other things.

 

[gregorio]

I couldn't help but read your amazingly scientific reply, and reply one last time.

 
Do you promise it's just "one last time" and then you'll go back to the cables forum? If so, I'll answer some of your questions but I'll ignore your little audiophile foot stomping first paragraph.
 

Was each set measured with science or magical fairy dust ...?

 
Science, you can't measure anything with fairy dust.
 

Was it before or after acoustic treatment of the space?

 
During.
 

Same question for the rest of the gear.

 
Same answer.
 

At which point were high end cables compared to $2 per foot mogami's, which part of the chain, digital or analog cables ?

 
At no point. As I said, audio engineers know how audio works. No point in wasting time testing or comparing differences which can't exist.
 

Was it a scientific or monetary decision to have multiple 20 meter runs to a booth of $2 per foot cable with $2.50 terminations ?

 
Scientific.
 

Does it matter to an audio engineer if a cable sounds better ...

 
I think you mean; Does it matter to an audio engineer that some nutters in the audiophile community think they can hear differences where none exist. Answer: Not in the slightest. We used up all the good jokes at their expense many years ago and now it's rather passe to waste time even mentioning them.
 

Does it matter to the client who commissioned the work of the studio whether high end cables are used ...

 
No, not even clients are that stupid!
 

... or is it more a concern of a proper mastering of the audio ...

 
No. Let me make this absolutely clear, if I haven't already: There is no difference, therefore there is no concern. It is not more of a concern for mastering engineers, it is of absolutely no concern whatsoever, not for recording engineers, mix engineers, mastering engineers, clients or indeed anyone at all! The ONLY exception is a few nutters in the audiophile community and those who make a living from them.
 
G

 

[ralphp@optonline]

I am not trying to avoid the argument, I am simply stating that someone with actual experience of a cable has more right to claim whether it's good, bad, or doesn't do anything different at all than another cable vs. someone that had read numerous whitepapers and has a clear understanding of audio and electrical engineering, and a master's degree, or whatever, or none of that, and is simply regurgitating comments and factoids made by others, yet never tried said cable whether on their own system or even at a show where it is available to the general public.

Speaking of broad theories that you can dismiss does not apply here. You are saying your gold door knob in your kitchen can't make cymbals sharper on your living room stereo. Discussing cable's effects in nowhere near the same thing, unless someone is claiming that their $1000 cable neatly tucked under their mattress in their bedroom is giving them a taughter bass line in their home theatre.
If we're discussing different types of screws being used to install said doorknob, or different lubricants to assist with its operation, that is much closer to home.

Using your analogies, if I told you that water hose "a" connected to my kitchen faucet a made tap water taste better than hose "b", measuring the same gpm output, water has been put under a microscope and measures the same amount of particulates, or whatever else can be scientifically compared. Would you simply dismiss my claim, as it is theoretically not possible, or would you have to try it for yourself ? If all the measurements are the same, yet the water clearly tastes better, aside from being subjective and placebo, etc., could that reveal that a measurement is missing?

 
 

 
LMAO....I can already measure his response.  I actually respect the fact that he doesn't measure any differences.  I was just taking back over time how often new measuring devices have come to market with newer technology to measure things we couldn't measure in the past.  Not just in audio either.  Being a retired Naval officer, I lived with and around mostly engineers of every type.  My daughter is an Astro and Nuclear Physicist.  I love having conversations with her.  The one thing that I enjoy is the fact that she has her theories about dark matter and string theory and wants to live her life proving it.  I also love that she's an artist (has owned her own clothing company since she was 13 and had to start doing her own taxes at 16).  She's also been on The Voice.  She listens to both sides of her brain and she clearly hears differences with various changes I do with my system.  
 
I've been amused by this thread and some of the responses. I feel badly for people who are condescending to others with conflicting views. I  really cuts down on the future.  I wonder who someone like this can explain things in the future when we CAN measure new and different things that conflict with the past???  
 
Condensing is the perfect word for some of these post.  Maybe these folks aren't able to measure everything because technology isn't there.  Tons of transducers measure the same and sound totally different.  You can't say it's because of different materials, because wires are the same way...different materials are used as are different processes. 
 
Have fun together on your we are right and you are idiots and wrong because we can make measurements look anyway we want to, at least until new measuring tools come out and we can measure other things.

 
Okay let's repeat this yet again:
 
The objectivitists here are not claiming that you don't hear a difference between various different cables. If you think you a difference then you hear a difference. What we are saying is that the differences that you are hearing are more than likely due to the shortcomings of subjective listening tests and comparisons. If you think that the differences are not due to these well documented shortcomings, that's fine but understand that it is impossible to to determine exactly what is causing these differences until there is a reliable way to completely eliminate the shortcomings of sighted listening tests, since these shortcomings are many, many, many, many, many orders of magnitude greater than any of the other theories/possibilities being proposed. By the way measurements and scientific principles are more reliable than sighted listening tests.

 

[gregorio]

  By the way measurements and scientific principles are more reliable than sighted listening tests.

 
Unfortunately, making rational arguments is not going to work. Rational arguments cannot, by definition, work with those who are irrational. What they can't or refuse to understand is that ultimately, there no getting away from measurements because sound recording and reproduction technology, from when Edison first invented it until now, is itself measurement. If it can't be measured then by definition it cannot be recorded (or reproduced). There is frequency and there is amplitude and that's it. There is no getting away from this fundamental fact, unless one turns away from fact and heads off into the world of irrationality.
 
G

 

[k1n0n3]

Okay let's repeat this yet again:

The objectivitists here are not claiming that you don't hear a difference between various different cables. If you think you a difference then you hear a difference. What we are saying is that the differences that you are hearing are more than likely due to the shortcomings of subjective listening tests and comparisons. If you think that the differences are not due to these well documented shortcomings, that's fine but understand that it is impossible to to determine exactly what is causing these differences until there is a reliable way to completely eliminate the shortcomings of sighted listening tests, since these shortcomings are many, many, many, many, many orders of magnitude greater than any of the other theories/possibilities being proposed. By the way measurements and scientific principles are more reliable than sighted listening tests.

With the above said, are you implying that theres is a possibility that cables can sound different, there just hasn't been any currently utilized test/method to show those differences if any, or did I read that wrong ?

 

[ralphp@optonline]

With the above said, are you implying that theres is a possibility that cables can sound different, there just hasn't been any currently utilized test/method to show those differences if any, or did I read that wrong ?

Not quite, what I am trying say is that if you think a difference then you hear a difference. The question is whether or not that perceived difference is the result of a measurable difference or the result of the shortcomings of sighted listening, in other words, all in your head. So your sentence quoted above should read:
 
"there is a possibility that cables can be perceived to sound different.."
 
And no one would argue with the above revised statement since perception belongs to the individual but remember that an individual's perception may or may not be the same as the reality.

 

[k1n0n3]

Not quite, what I am trying say is that if you think a difference then you hear a difference. The question is whether or not that perceived difference is the result of a measurable difference or the result of the shortcomings of sighted listening, in other words, all in your head. So your sentence quoted above should read:

"there is a possibility that cables can [COLOR=FF0000]be perceived to[/COLOR] sound different.."

And no one would argue with the above revised statement since perception belongs to the individual but remember that an individual's perception may or may not be the same as the reality.

Fair enough

 

[ralphp@optonline]

Fair enough

Excellent!!
 
Step two will be to get you and other audiophiles to begin to understand just how corrupt most, if not all, of the various high end audio publications and web sites really are.

 

[k1n0n3]

Excellent!!

Step two will be to get you and other audiophiles to begin to understand just how corrupt most, if not all, of the various high end audio publications and web sites really are.

I am fully aware they are, no argument there. For me they simply raise awareness of new products that I may not have otherwise known existed/came to the market.

 

[Sal1950]

Speaking of cables I feel I must make ya'll aware of a super deal on speaker cables.
Got my weekly email flier from Audiogon today. Some gentleman there has a used 10 meter pair
of Nordost Vallhalla 2 speaker cables for sale there.
Retail price $35,850  now only $19,800  

 
"For sale is my mint ten (10) meter pair of Valhalla 2 speaker cables!  I recently purchased these fantastic speaker cables from my local authorized Nordost Reference Dealer and absolutely love the cables but I am going to try to make the leap to an Odin 2 loom! "
 
Really, are you kidding me?  How much are the Odin 2s going to cost?
Things have spiraled beyond any reason. If you buy into the cable gospel today I can see someone putting $100k into cabling alone if you want a SOTA system.
If I told anyone in the 1980s audiophile community a set long speaker cables would be OVER $40,000 I can only imagine the response. Guess I'll for ever have a totally junk system.
 
Oh by the way, the seller wants another $175 for shipping!

 

[ralphp@optonline]

I am fully aware they are, no argument there. For me they simply raise awareness of new products that I may not have otherwise known existed/came to the market.

And that is the same reason why I still have subscriptions to a few high end audio publications. Please understand that I don't totally disregard all thing high end since there are many high end audio manufacturers who try to give the consumer high value for their money. And there are also real advances made in many state of the art products that eventually made their way into less expensive equipment. Better build quality is another positive for much high end equipment. A lot of mass market audio is not built to last. Nor does that equipment come with the same feature set as more expensive equipment. The trick is to assemble a cost effective and good sounding system that has the features one needs, high build quality and will provide years of listening enjoyment.

 

[spruce music]

  Speaking of cables I feel I must make ya'll aware of a super deal on speaker cables.
Got my weekly email flier from Audiogon today. Some gentleman there has a used 10 meter pair
of Nordost Vallhalla 2 speaker cables for sale there.
Retail price $35,850  now only $19,800  

 
"For sale is my mint ten (10) meter pair of Valhalla 2 speaker cables!  I recently purchased these fantastic speaker cables from my local authorized Nordost Reference Dealer and absolutely love the cables but I am going to try to make the leap to an Odin 2 loom! "
 
Really, are you kidding me?  How much are the Odin 2s going to cost?
Things have spiraled beyond any reason. If you buy into the cable gospel today I can see someone putting $100k into cabling alone if you want a SOTA system.
If I told anyone in the 1980s audiophile community a set long speaker cables would be OVER $40,000 I can only imagine the response. Guess I'll for ever have a totally junk system.
 
Oh by the way, the seller wants another $175 for shipping!

Actually that is a better deal than it would seem.  Those cables have already been burned in.  They should be going for more than the initial price.

 

[ralphp@optonline]

  Speaking of cables I feel I must make ya'll aware of a super deal on speaker cables.
Got my weekly email flier from Audiogon today. Some gentleman there has a used 10 meter pair
of Nordost Vallhalla 2 speaker cables for sale there.
Retail price $35,850  now only $19,800  

 
"For sale is my mint ten (10) meter pair of Valhalla 2 speaker cables!  I recently purchased these fantastic speaker cables from my local authorized Nordost Reference Dealer and absolutely love the cables but I am going to try to make the leap to an Odin 2 loom! "
 
Really, are you kidding me?  How much are the Odin 2s going to cost?
Things have spiraled beyond any reason. If you buy into the cable gospel today I can see someone putting $100k into cabling alone if you want a SOTA system.
If I told anyone in the 1980s audiophile community a set long speaker cables would be OVER $40,000 I can only imagine the response. Guess I'll for ever have a totally junk system.
 
Oh by the way, the seller wants another $175 for shipping!

The upward price spiral that you speak of is what is rapidly moving high end audio out of the home entertainment market and into the luxury goods market. Once firmly in the luxury goods market things like price to performance ratio and fidelity are no longer relevant and things like luxury finishes and the designer's name become the important factors. Think of high end wrist watches - there is no relationship between the cost of the watch and the watch's ability to keep accurate time. I have nothing against luxury goods but I do take (minor) offense when performance, and not status, is given as the reason for purchasing a luxury item. In other words, one doesn't buy a Patek Philippe watch because it keeps accurate time, rather one buys a Patek Philippe watch because, well, it's a Patek Philippe.