Audiophile quality 9th symphony?

[jsaliga]

Quote:

Originally Posted by zumaro /img/forum/go_quote.gif Now Vanska has completed his series, I think you can safely add it to the set of the greatest interpretations of the Beethoven symphonies - not a weak performance there. Bunnyears sums up the merits well - the precision and sheer togetherness of the orchestra is a joy in itself. And the recording is audiophile quality.

I know there are a lot of folks that think very highy of the Vanska Beethoven Symphony cycle. But having just listened to the 5th, I wasn't very impressed. The recording quality is quite good, to be sure. But I don't think the recording quality or the performances stand up very well to the best that Reiner, Szell, Munch, Klemperer, or Karajan have to offer.

I listened to the Vanska and Reiner RCA Living Stereo recordings back to back, and the former sounded flat and lifeless, while the latter sounded vibrant, alive, and powerful. Still, I have seen other people complain about the sound quality of the Reiner recording. So there is no shortage of differing opinion.

--Jerome

 

[Bunnyears]

I don't know what you want in a 5th, but Vänskä's recording stands up very well against the Szell and many more. There is no doubt but that Vänskä is a superb Beethovenian with a very deep knowledge of the composer's music. Perhaps your taste has been jaded by a superfluity of excellent 5ths? I've heard enough mediocre and bad 5ths so that I can recognize its excellence. For my money, Vänskä's fifth is up there with the elite. Btw, although I didn't have the privilege of seeing Szell do the 5th in concert, I did see Vänskä and the Minnesota SO doing it in concert and it was far from flat. Of course, Vänskä does have the benefit of the Barenreiter Urtext as well as all of the understanding of Beethoven from the HIP movement that was nonexistent in the times of Reiner, Szell, Klemperer, Karajan, et al. What I find so very amazing is the way Vänskä keeps his orchestra so very balanced, which is no mean feat when you are using a full 20th century band complete with 8 double basses, 30 violins, 12 violas and 12 cellos. Most of the modern recordings of the Beethoven symphonies are using a scaled down (chamber sized) orchestra in order to achieve the transparency that Vänskä has achieved.

Szell's cycle is excellent, but the sound quality is very dated and most of the transfers to cd were made in the early digital days so they suffer in that regard as well. When one compares the 2 channel analog complete with hiss to the pristeen digital dsd recording in 5 channel super audio, there is no doubt that the later recording is superior in sound quality.

 

[jsaliga]

Well, my purpose for posting wasn't to rain on the Vanska parade or to provoke you into defending your preference. I wasn't really interested sparking a debate either, and I don't own a 5-channel setup so I am not qualified to comment on that.

You may have a fair point that I might be a bit jaded. I can tell you that the best sounding performances I own are all on vinyl, and after initially hearing the Klemperer and Bernstein cycles on vinyl I went out of my way to obtain others of interest on vinyl as well. But I also have several on CD, including many of the performances I have on vinyl (mainly Klemperer, Bernstein, Szell, and Karajan). They all have their strengths and weaknesses.

I listen to the music and experience it. My opinion of it is therefore very personal and is based on an intensely personal experience. I don't expect that my opinion will necessarily have meaning or relevance for anyone else. If it does, then great. If it doesn't, that's fine too. The same is true of your opinion. So you shouldn't be offended when I say that your declarative statements concerning the quality and performance of the Vanska 5th doesn't really mean much to me.

My point is, that for now we are pretty far apart where Vanska is concerned, and it doesn't seem likely that we will be able to resolve that difference through a protracted discussion and debate. Granted, I have only listened to the Vanska 5th once, and it is not out of the question that my opinion might change after additional listening. It would not be the first performance that left me cold initially, but that I was able to warm up to later. Who knows what the future will bring?

--Jerome

 

[DarkAngel]

The Vanska/BIS can hardly be faulted especially regarding modern pure SACD sound, but I would not rank it among the very elite performance wise.

If I could own only one 9th it would be 1977 Karajan/BPO/DG

Great orchestra, vocalists, conductor caught in rare form with very good late 1970's analog sound. I don't have SACD but the various CD remasters offered by DG don't really improve upon the original very cheap used (under $2) DG Galleria at Amazon:

 

[Bunnyears]

DA,

We must disagree on this, but having listened to the recording back to back with almost all the others that I have I still put it in the top ranks. It may not be the ultimate 5th for many, but it's up there with the best. The 4th also may be one of the best 4ths that I have on disc, and that includes the Dausgaard, Szell, Karajan, Bernstein, and many others.

 

[DarkAngel]

Bunny

I have the complete Vanska/BIS Beethoven set now and it will definitely remain part of my core collection....no doubt about that

Also very recently I felt compelled to get the 15 CD Vanska/BIS "essential" Sibelius set since it cost little more than the 4 CD Vanska symphony only set.....awaiting arrival

 

[DefectiveAudioComponent]

It is a good thing that we do not have to choose the best performance/recording. We can have them all!!

One version that really drags me into the music is the Szell 61 recording. If I had to pick only one right now, that would be the one, although the audio quality is not perfect. To me, it has the magic of the Furtwängler 1942 recording but without the horrible audio quality.

(disclaimer: I might suddenly change my mind about it)

 

[Bunnyears]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkAngel /img/forum/go_quote.gif Bunny I have the complete Vanska/BIS Beethoven set now and it will definitely remain part of my core collection....no doubt about that Also very recently I felt compelled to get the 15 CD Vanska/BIS "essential" Sibelius set since it cost little more than the 4 CD Vanska symphony only set.....awaiting arrival

I've been looking at that Sibelius for quite a while! I also have all of the Vänskä beethoven now as well. As noted, I'm extremely pleased with the new 7th. That's quite a recording. So far, it's the best sounding Beethoven cycle around. Each symphony may not be a home run individually, but then when you have a top notch cycle, not every thing is ultimate. It's just the sheer quality of the whole that puts it into the top ranks. And, of course, now I have a complete cycle to put on a new non- hissing ipod that, finally, doesn't hiss as well.

Another note: the Brautigam Haydn keyboard works (period instruments) has now been released as a boxed set. It looks expensive too until you realize that it's got 15 cds that are priced around $4.00 each ($60.00 at Arkiv). I've already pulled the trigger on that one.

 

[DarkAngel]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bunnyears /img/forum/go_quote.gif Another note: the Brautigam Haydn keyboard works (period instruments) has now been released as a boxed set. It looks expensive too until you realize that it's got 15 cds that are priced around $4.00 each ($60.00 at Arkiv). I've already pulled the trigger on that one.

You have read my mind.......I just received the Brautigam/BIS Haydn set a couple days ago. This was an automatic purchase after getting the BIS Mozart set by Brautigam and being thrilled with the sound and performance!

 

[rlmacklin]

The Brautigam Haydn keyboard works boxed set was $48.10 at CD Universe.

 

[Kang]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rlmacklin /img/forum/go_quote.gif The Brautigam Haydn keyboard works boxed set was $48.10 at CD Universe.

Thanks for the info. I placed an order, although it is on backorder.