Audiophile PC vs Streamer

[BS5711]

This is an appeal to incredulity. You are incredulous that differences exist and want to hand wave them away as being entirely the result of psychological factors.

If you swallowed your pride and just auditioned some of the products that we're reporting make massive differences you would hear for yourself that the effects we are reporting are not some sort of subtle "maybe I hear something, maybe I don't" thing.

I'm talking MASSIVE and obvious difference that leaves your jaw agape.

Confirmation bias would dictate that I *don't* hear a difference when I don't expect there to be one.

I would have never suspected that a belleson reg in a PSU for a raspberry pi that's connected to a DAC via USB would ever make a difference. the *only* reason I did the comparison is because the belleson reg happened to be laying around from a previous project. I wanted there to NOT be a difference. My expectation was that, if I heard anything, it would be subtle, and less of a difference than switching from a SMPS to a linear w/ a TI LM338.

I was wrong.

That isn’t how bias works.

Bias all by itself can create massive differences regardless of whether you expect a difference or not. It isn’t “directional” for want of a better word, it isn’t subtle and without taking steps to remove it you cannot define exactly what the cause of a change is.

I don’t discount that the things you are talking about make a difference, I am just calling for a little awareness of other normal human factors that can affect our perception.

You might very well be hearing the product of the things you are trying but psychology could also be at play. That is just a fact and I am just raising it because it is relatively evident that it is being completely brushed aside by one or two parties involved in this conversation.

Anyway, I will leave you to it.

 

[fliz]

That isn’t how bias works.

Bias all by itself can create massive differences regardless of whether you expect a difference or not. It isn’t “directional” for want of a better word, it isn’t subtle and without taking steps to remove it you cannot define exactly what the cause of a change is.

I don’t discount that the things you are talking about make a difference, I am just calling for a little awareness of other normal human factors that can affect our perception.

You might very well be hearing the product of the things you are trying but psychology could also be at play. That is just a fact and I am just raising it because it is relatively evident that it is being completely brushed aside by one or two parties involved in this conversation.

Anyway, I will leave you to it.

That is literally exactly how confirmation bias works.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

Ironically you're falling victim to it in your post.

 

[sygnus21]

Head Fi is full of talk from large numbers of people hearing all sorts of tiny nuance, do you think they are all exceptional human beings that are hearing things that are beyond scientific understanding or are they simply mistaken due to psychological influences, I think the latter is far more likely.

That's the other fallacy - You don't have to have super human hearing to hear things other's miss... you just need to be attentive to what you're listening to. If I hear a song once, I don't know what's there and isn't there. If I've heard a song many many times, I intuitively know what's changed when its played on different systems - the bass is dull, the mids stepped back, the treble smeared.

I think many try to keyhole people in a tightly defined box so the bolster a false position. The fact is you don't need super human (or golden ears) hearing to be able to hear differences in sound, you just need to be attentive. If you've ever had a hearing test, you'd get what I mean.

You say that folks are well across the influence of bias etc on audio perception, based on what I read all over Head Fi I don't believe that is true at all, the impression I get is that most are not aware of it or if they are they completely ignore it and go on to present information about sound that they have PERCEIVED as genuine fact based on differences with electronics.

Of course were all biased in some way. And we're all prone to the placebo effect. Nothing new here.

Yeah, if I buy a 5K DAC, I certainly expect it to sound better than the 2K DAC it replaced. If it isn't, I'll try to convince myself it is.... until I can no longer deny reality. This is why some have written follow up reviews, or ended up contradicting stuff they said earlier. Yes, that happens to.

The last point is my objection and why I even bother with these conversations, folks either don't know or don't care about psychological influence and yet proceed to tell anybody that will listen about sonic changes or qualities attributed to technical details of a device when the changes are just as likely only in that persons mind. That is great for them personally, I don't care, but I think it is disingenuous for a person to bury their head in the sand but still tell others about technical nuance with no effort account for psychology at all, not even something as fundamental as accurate volume matching.

I think I showed you I care and am aware. I think your issue is you assume, you're the only one that understands these things. Your not. I'm not.

For the record, I hear all the same things that others talk about in normal listening. However, I am naturally curious so I dig deeper and when doing basic blind volume matched comparisons via a couple of simple methods those differences no longer exist for me.

Or the possibility you talked yourself out of what you thought you heard. After all if one refuses to believe they will go out their way to prove their disbelief.

Regardless, the fact is we all hear differently. And it's not just an elite group of people.

 

[BS5711]

That is literally exactly how confirmation bias works.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

Ironically you're falling victim to it in your post.

Perhaps you might want to read a little more in depth and try some controlled listening for yourself.

I didn’t say “expectation” or "confirmation" bias, only bias in a wider sense.

Bias, psychology, placebo or whatever word you wish to use isn’t predictable in its effect on audio perception and until you have made efforts to remove the effects you likely don’t know how strong the influence can be.

If trying tests for yourself it becomes very apparent just how strong psychological influences are which is why I raised the issue.

If you don’t believe or don’t care that is absolutely fine but I don’t think you can make sweeping statements about the impact of technical changes that probably shouldn’t theoretically change sound but seem to without controlled listening to remove psychological effects as much as possible.

Lots of people talk about differences so obvious that they would easily be differentiated in a blind test but they never actually do such a test to know.

Regardless, we have both stated our case, I think we are done.

Enjoy the music regardless.

@sygnus21 … thanks, as I said above, we have both stated our position and we are done. Thank you.

 

[fliz]

Yeah, if I buy a 5K DAC, I certainly expect it to sound better than the 2K DAC it replaced. If it isn't, I'll try to convince myself it is.... until I can no longer deny reality.

This is one of the reasons I think it's all the more worth paying when someone admits something in the opposite direction.

You've got to swallow a huge amount of pride to admit something that's cheaper sounds better than the expensive thing you own.

This is why I bring up the RPi5 with the Belleson PSU beating a 5 figure server, or the modded chi-fi DAC beating a $27k DAC, or $500 power cords beating $3k power cords.

Each one of those observations required an admission that contradicts confirmation bias, sunk cost bias, and the instinct to protect your ego.

In the case of the $27k DAC, the owner looked like he got punched in the gut when he auditioned the modded chi-fi. Part of me felt sorry for him, but another part didn't because he ended up with money in his pocket after selling it second hand, even though he sold it at a loss.

 

[Diet Kokaine]

This is one of the reasons I think it's all the more worth paying when someone admits something in the opposite direction.

You've got to swallow a huge amount of pride to admit something that's cheaper sounds better than the expensive thing you own.

This is why I bring up the RPi5 with the Belleson PSU beating a 5 figure server, or the modded chi-fi DAC beating a $27k DAC, or $500 power cords beating $3k power cords.

Each one of those observations required an admission that contradicts confirmation bias, sunk cost bias, and the instinct to protect your ego.

In the case of the $27k DAC, the owner looked like he got punched in the gut when he auditioned the modded chi-fi. Part of me felt sorry for him, but another part didn't because he ended up with money in his pocket after selling it second hand, even though he sold it at a loss.

Audio Engineers: When enthusiasts consistently report transformative results from simple mods like clean power optimization or capacitor bypassing – *listen*.

Dismissing these as 'placebo' ignores real-world experience.

Magnepan is a classic case study in this sort of behavior. After "DECADES" of denying that crossover upgrades were capable of bringing their speakers to a completely new "absurd" level of performance, Magnepan then turned around and is now selling the same DIY crossovers as an additional tier of speaker upgrades. This after years and years of continuous gaslighting, sneering and ridiculing their own customers who were reporting what they were hearing.

Egos and 'Not Invented Here' syndrome prevent good gear from becoming truly exceptional.

@fliz at least this guy was honest enough to admit what he was hearing. Live and learn

 

[fliz]

Audio Engineers: When enthusiasts consistently report transformative results from simple mods like clean power optimization or capacitor bypassing – *listen*.

Dismissing these as 'placebo' ignores real-world experience.

Magnepan is a classic case study in this sort of behavior. After "DECADES" of denying that crossover upgrades were capable of bringing their speakers to a completely new "absurd" level of performance, Magnepan then turned around and is now selling the same DIY crossovers as an additional tier of speaker upgrades. This after years and years of continuous gaslighting, sneering and ridiculing their own customers who were reporting what they were hearing.

Egos and 'Not Invented Here' syndrome prevent good gear from becoming truly exceptional.

@fliz at least this guy was honest enough to admit what he was hearing. Live and learn

I definitely did live and learn that lesson.

The only reason I know about the builder who built my system is because of a user on here who had the same flashy, expensive, and well reviewed CD player as me, but sold it after listening to a modded Denon 2900.

Once I heard that Denon myself, I've been buying gear from the guy who did the mods ever since.

That was in 2004. I've been such a loyal customer by this point that I literally invited him to my wedding. I can't even honestly review his gear myself because confirmation bias IS an issue in my case because I've already concluded that his gear is the best, period.

That's why I prefer to recount stories of others corroborating my opinion rather than just my opinion. The guy with the 27k DAC is an example. Same story with another guy with a $14k DAC. That one had a harder time swallowing his pride and admitting the modded chi-fi was better. It was only once his wife got home and she called it out that he finally admitted it. She also didn't know that she was listening to something 1/3rd the price. Her first reaction after saying it was way better was "Oh no. What did I just sign up for?", not realizing she just put money back in her pocket.

That second guy also bought a full set of his $500 power cords after they slayed the much pricier ones in his system.

We can say that maybe they're biased to prefer the cheap thing because it's financially beneficial but this industry is filled with veblen goods that sell *because* they're expensive.

 

[sygnus21]

This is one of the reasons I think it's all the more worth paying when someone admits something in the opposite direction.

That's just one of a million examples used to show how the placebo effect can work. However, It doesn't mean the opposite can't be true where the 5K model is definitively better than the 2K model in SQ.

You've got to swallow a huge amount of pride to admit something that's cheaper sounds better than the expensive thing you own.

Not really cause we all know more isn't necessarily better.... but we also know it's typically more true than not. And while a 5K DAC isn't necessarily going to blow the doors off a 2K DAC, It's those subtle sound quality improvements that's going to make the more expensive DAC appealing.

Anyway, since I don't have an answer for every "what if", and "maybe so", I'll just say things are not so cut and dry as you believe.

The only reason I know about the builder who built my system is because of a user on here who had the same flashy, expensive, and well reviewed CD player as me, but sold it after listening to a modded Denon 2900.

Once I heard that Denon myself, I've been buying gear from the guy who did the mods ever since.

What's the point in modded gear? Why mod?

 

[Andrew_WOT]

$500 power cords beating $3k power cords

New level of insanity, $500 for power cord. Have they not checked wiring in the walls and power line to the house. How the last foot can make any difference at all?
Although after audiophile rocks, audiophile crystals (that was April's fool joke btw, but shows how it works), audiophile grade fuses, and other snake oil you'd think nothing can surprise you anymore, yet every new introduced to the market nonsense does. This industry just nourishes on suckers.

 

[BS5711]

audiophile crystals (that was April's fool joke btw, but shows how it works)

It would not surprise me at all if he made it into a joke later but was serious initially.

That guy is a text book case of complete ignorance of psychology, to the point that his content about some stuff is near a running joke with people that used to follow his channel.

He has done a number of blind tests of things like USB cables, inevitably failed, then looked for reasons to explain why he hears differently when he can see the products. He has gone on for at least a couple of years with intermittent videos trying to explain why he very clearly hears things all the way up until he does some version of controlled listening when everything falls apart.

He did one test where he dragged several other audiophiles into a blind USB cable comparison and managed to embarrass them all because of course they all failed despite that they were convinced they had the differences they heard nailed downs and they would be easy to pick blind .... nope.

 

[theveterans]

New level of insanity, $500 for power cord. Have they not checked wiring in the walls and power line to the house. How the last foot can make any difference at all?
Although after audiophile rocks, audiophile crystals (that was April's fool joke btw, but shows how it works), audiophile grade fuses, and other snake oil you'd think nothing can surprise you anymore, yet every new introduced to the market nonsense does. This industry just nourishes on suckers.

$500 is pretty affordable in the context of high end power cords BTW

 

[sygnus21]

If that's out of order, there's a cheaper alternative too, but not sure how it is compared to Optimo-s-atx

@theveterans @Diet Kokaine, you introduce me to something I didn't know there was a thing for...

Are you building Pure PC Hi-Fi systems? Curious...

 

[theveterans]

@theveterans @Diet Kokaine, you introduce me to something I didn't know there was a thing for...

Are you building Pure PC Hi-Fi systems? Curious...

I'm certainly not, but I'm aware of the market of Audiophile PC. In my current financial means, I can only go for streamer as a cheaper alternative instead. Scaling up a LPS for ATX motherboard is just very $$$ while needing just 7V 1A LPS for a RPi streamer is much more affordable The good thing with audiophile power supply for ATX is that you can literally run HQPlayer if you have a NOS DAC that takes high sample rates or DSD while benefiting from the sonic effects of LPS against the common SMPS ATX PSU

 

[fliz]

That's just one of a million examples used to show how the placebo effect can work. However, It doesn't mean the opposite can't be true where the 5K model is definitively better than the 2K model in SQ.

No. It's the opposite. If your expectation is contradicted, that's not placebo.

Not really cause we all know more isn't necessarily better.... but we also know it's typically more true than not. And while a 5K DAC isn't necessarily going to blow the doors off a 2K DAC, It's those subtle sound quality improvements that's going to make the more expensive DAC appealing.

The assumption that differences are subtle is an appeal to incredulity. People are explicitly telling you the differences are not subtle.

Anyway, since I don't have an answer for every "what if", and "maybe so", I'll just say things are not so cut and dry as you believe.


What's the point in modded gear? Why mod?

Because you can piggy back off someone else's economy of scale. In the case of Denon, they're a massive company and could produce CD players at a lower cost than a smaller manufacturer. Same applies for Oppo Digital. You're also avoiding licensing fees for all the stuff those players support (eg: hdcd, sacd, blu-ray, etc)

Even in the case of the modded chi-fi DAC, the main benefit is the economy of scale. The starting DAC is like $600 on eBay and you couldn't build one from scratch for that. Most of it isn't anything particularly special anyway. There's no "secret sauce" in the digital input side. You just properly do what the chip wants according to the datasheet.

The secret sauce is in the DAC's analog output stage. Also, knowing which components are worth upgrading to higher quality ones (like the Belleson regs).

New level of insanity, $500 for power cord. Have they not checked wiring in the walls and power line to the house. How the last foot can make any difference at all?

This is a textbook example of an appeal to incredulity.

Also, yes. It's very common for people with high end systems to run a dedicated line from their breaker box with overspec wire. It's also common for people to install an additional breaker box if the main one is over 50' away.

Some take it even further:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/a-gift...ave-it-all-a-personal-utility-pole-1471189463

Although after audiophile rocks, audiophile crystals (that was April's fool joke btw, but shows how it works), audiophile grade fuses, and other snake oil you'd think nothing can surprise you anymore, yet every new introduced to the market nonsense does. This industry just nourishes on suckers.

Suckers definitely exist, as do dishonest manufactures.

This isn't limited to questionable devices like crystals and rocks though. It's also the pay to play gatekeeping. Reviewers won't publish a review of a product that sounds better than their sponsors' products unless you also become a sponsor. Even this site uses a sponsor model. If you think the companies that spend money to be on head-fi's landing page have the best products, you're the sucker.

$500 is pretty affordable in the context of high end power cords BTW

Yep, and at least one dealer (who has a financial incentive to "prefer" things that are the most remunerative) recently tried it and he said it's his new favorite. His previous favorite was $3k.

 

[theveterans]

The assumption that differences are subtle is an appeal to incredulity. People are explicitly telling you the differences are not subtle.

This highly depends on the resolving ability of the transducers and amp. When people say it's not subtle but immediately noticeably better, it's because their systems is very, very resolving whereas if the downstream components aren't top notch, differences will definitely be subtle but becomes more enjoyable in long-term listening sessions

Yep, and at least one dealer (who has a financial incentive to "prefer" things that are the most remunerative) recently tried it and he said it's his new favorite. His previous favorite was $3k.

Care to share that $500 power cord?