[dougmwpsu]

Quickfacts: 300$ budget, open to suggestions for upgrading any component, currently very happy with Grado sr-80, likes cheese.

I’m in the midst of a big decision regarding how I should upgrade my audio setup. I currently have a Rio Karma, Audigy 1 pro, Rolls ha-43 headphone amp, a pair of Koss kcs-50’s, and a pair of stock Grado sr-80’s. I listen to all genres of music with a slight emphasis on indie rock and classical. My typical listening environment is either my bedroom or dorm room with low level background noise. (computer, roommate’s headphones, mother bitching ect.) My hearing is fair, but I find it nigh impossible to tell difference between a 192 aps-lame mp3 and redbook or to tell the difference between the sound of the grado’s coming out of any of the source combo’s I just mentioned.(not sure if that’s biological or equipment related, but I guess it’s a good reference point to note)

I’ve had my grado’s a few years and feel it’s time to move on to bigger and better things. Though I love them to death, I find them a bit wanting on certain musical styles. Classical seems to have particular room for improvement and the occasional indie album can be painfully strident. I've partitioned myself $300USD or LESS (after taxes, shipping included) to achieve as much improvement in sound as I can. With a $300 max budget how much improvement can I expect to achieve? Where should the money go towards (source, amp, cans, other)? What can you guys suggest as far as bang for the buck goes with what I have? What’s the capital of South Korea?

So far I’ve been considering either the senn hd-580’s or ety er4-p&s. however, I feel that there may be options that I’m not considering. I might upgrade my soundcard with that cheap chaintech AV710, and though I’m not sure how much a step up it’ll be, for $20 it’s not too much of a punch in the checkbook. There were interesting looking amps at headsave but they are new and haven’t yet been properly reviewed. I haven’t thrown midlevel grados into the mix. Since I already have a pair, I figure I should diversify. I haven’t considered closed cans (akg, beyer) because of all the cheap headphones I’ve had the displeasure of using, closed were always by far the worst. Any and all help you can all give me in emptying my wallet pronto would be greatly appreciated

I won’t apologize for the long post, clear expression needs room to stretch.
(but I will apologize for the thread title

)

 

[gsferrari]

Can you extend your budget if you manage to sell off the older stuff. Say $450.00 or $500.00 ?

In this case :-

Source - Rio karma ($0.00) / Toshiba SD-3950 ($50.00 new)
Amp - MG Head ($175 - $250 used)
Headphones - Senn HD-580 ($100 - $130 used)/ Grado SR-225 ($150.00)

Or

Source - Toshiba SD-3950 ($50.00)
Amp - PPA ($350.00 used)
Cans - Senn HD-580 ($100 - $130 used) / Grado SR-225 ($150.00 used/new)

So much to play around with...

 

[dougmwpsu]

gsferrari,
I really can't see selling any of my current equipment. I need the audigy for games, the Grado's aren’t going anywhere unless I upgrade to better Grado's, and I’d be lucky to get a sucker punch for the roll's amp. The 300 dollar limit is more of a theoretical max rather than the actual amount of money I want to dump. I’d be much happier spending less than 200. However on the good advice and knowledgeable encouragement of the wonderful head-fi members I might be persuaded to spend the full $300. I realize that there are many schools of thought regarding money spend on upgrades. Some "catch and release" quickly buying and selling new equipment, while others are perpetually saving for a megapurchase. I would like to upgrade my setup now rather than wait for the next greatest thing I could afford.

The Toshiba dvd looks like a pretty nifty deal. It seems to have many accolades spread out over several forums. However my audio material mostly consists of well ripped mp3, ogg, and flac, (format depending on how long ago I borrowed the cds). As I can't justify the cost of revamping my can system and audio collection, the hardware will have to come first.

How large of a jump are the sr-225's? Is it a big enough improvement to convince me to get rid of the current g's and not branch out into other types of sound? A ppa looks like a serious amp, but it alone would blow my budget and then some. That mg head is waaay beyond me. Tube replacements would single-handedly put me in the debtor’s prison. … besides I probably need something a bit more… dorm friendly.

Thanks for the reply

 

[WmAx]

Quote:

Audiophile ear for the studying engineer

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I’m in the midst of a big decision regarding how I should upgrade my audio setup.

Quote:

I currently have a Rio Karma, Audigy 1 pro, Rolls ha-43 headphone amp, a pair of Koss kcs-50’s

Quote:

There were interesting looking amps at headsave but they are new and haven’t yet been properly reviewed.

Are yolu willing to 'upgrade' your amp, for example, based only on a non-controlled listening session? Based on others' reviews which have zero objective value(also based on non-controlled listening)? I feel it is important to question this, since you are studying to be an engineer. I wonder of what value your education will be if you succumb to basing important(amps considered 'good' on this board cost, at minimum, as much as y our Grado SR80 headphones) final decisions on speculation. This is not something that has a rightful place in proper engineering applications. Develoment would be dumb, as well as costs increased without logical reason. Evidence is required in order to base these decisions efficiently. In the case of a new amp, I would require (1)careful measurements that correlate with known human noticable differences [or] (2) controlled listening tests, level matched, using proper bias control protocols(DBT or ABX). Rolls typically makes fine performing devices that feature low noise and distortion and remain stabile in their intended applications. Does your amp currently have some problem(s) in operation or lack an important feature/function you desire? If not, i can not see any reason to replace the device.

I suggest other model headphones, if a true difference is desired. Another option is a high quality equalizer such as the Behringer DSP2496. DSP based, very low noise, 31 discrete bands per channel plus parametric shaping.

-Chris

 

[dougmwpsu]

WmAx,
Unfortunately, not everything in life can be reduced to an equation, as much as I’d like it to be. Just because I’m studying engineering doesn’t mean I have the ability to do what you are suggesting and come up with meaningful results. Besides, the title was only a pun off that popular makeover show.

Subjective opinions are the only thing I have to go off of until I actually receive my purchases. One shouldn’t be so quick to dismiss opinions. I’ve based many successful and fruitful decisions in life solely on the careful review of the opinions of others. Just because a statement is an opinion doesn’t mean it is without value.

I’m not itching to get rid of any of my equipment. I didn’t say that I needed to replace it, or that I thought it was junk, but that I am open to suggestions. Besides, if I were to buy a new amp, I would need the old one to determine if I heard a favorable change in sound, and thus whether I was going to return said new amp.

As far as that equalizer goes, I wasn’t able to find it anywhere on the forum or Behringer’s website. Are you sure you gave me the right model number? Couldn’t I get the same results with a software based EQ since I’m useing a computer based source?
Thanks for the reply.
Doug

 

[gsferrari]

Here is my suggestion - dont think of upgrading unless you have at least $1000.00 to spend. The differences in between are marginal and totally not worth it unless you are a die-hard budget audiophile. The money is better saved and spent at later.

If you must spend then consider this :-

Sell Grado SR-80 and buy Grado SR-225 (the difference should be around $80)

Buy Toshiba SD-3950 as redbook source.

Contact Norm at Headsave (http://www.headsave.com/) and ask about a suitable amp (the Vibe? - supposed to be better than the PIMETA according to fewtch and I tend to agree with his ears as far as amps are concerned).

Get the Home Vibe or the Go Vibe after discussing with Norm. ($85.00 max!)

So you should be set for under $200.00 for a new headphone, amp and source that plays awesome Redbook CD!!

Think about it

 

[WmAx]

Quote:

Subjective opinions are the only thing I have to go off of until I actually receive my purchases. One shouldn’t be so quick to dismiss opinions.

In lack of demonstrating the claims of audibility that are typical, it is not my practice to assume average people are correct. It would be a different matter if known JNDs were cited, that correlated with the claims. Unfortunately, that is not the circumstance in most of the cases. For example: different headphones will have significantly different sound characteristics, which are beyond argument, since these differences occur within known JNDs. However, the claims of so many similar solid state amplifiers sounding audibly different(often times drastic differences claimes) are unfounded. If an amp was shown to have non-linear performance under a certain load that results in audible frequency response abberations and/or distortion levels within known human detectability, then I would believe the average person's claim(s) may have some founded basis. However, I have not seen such claims backed up with data, yet.


Quote:

I’ve based many successful and fruitful decisions in life solely on the careful review of the opinions of others. Just because a statement is an opinion doesn’t mean it is without value.

I have done the same. Primarily, I will listen to the average person's opinions on matters that are known to have real, substantiatable differences. For example: I may look up many user reveiws on a camera, to see if a large percentage of people made point of a specific comfort/handling and/or praactical placement of controls. However, as far as image quality or other such quantifiable issues, I would seek out controlled data, ignoring the average user and professional opinions, then I can analyse and reach a conclusion that is likely accurate. In such issues that are not important and do not require any signficnat time/resource/expense in order to use, nor does it have any consequence of significance too me either way, then I will lilsten to general opinions just because I do not see the issue as worth investing the resources/time. Example: Currently, I don't care about movies very much. I might take advice for a DVD player without intense investigation, becuase I do not care, really, about any details of the matter. The only issue I would care about is a good warranty, reliability and that it played DVDs. I would not care about specific extra featuers or other details.

Quote:

Besides, if I were to buy a new amp, I would need the old one to determine if I heard a favorable change in sound, and thus whether I was going to return said new amp.

That would be a different matter, if you actually intended to perform controlled, level matched, blinded testing, reaching a conclusion by a statisticly significant number of trials. In case of difference, it would be interesting to (1) see measurements of teh two amplifiers, in order to identify the cause of difference.(2) scrutinize the testing methodology for possibe errors in case of measurement that are not outside of known human JNDs.

Quote:

As far as that equalizer goes, I wasn’t able to find it anywhere on the forum or Behringer’s website. Are you sure you gave me the right model number?

Sorry. I gave the incorrect model number.

Behringer DEQ2496
http://www.zzounds.com/item--BEHDEQ2496

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Couldn’t I get the same results with a software based EQ since I’m useing a computer based source?

I am not famliar with the various plug-in DSP options to that extent. However, I would imagine that someone has developed such a plug-in with fine eq control as the DEQ2496 offers, for computer based listening on a program such as Foobar. In the case of exclusive computer based listening, it would probably be silly to get a DEQ2496 if the desired control can be had onboard.

-Chris

 

[oneeyedhobbit]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsferrari Here is my suggestion - dont think of upgrading unless you have at least $1000.00 to spend. The differences in between are marginal and totally not worth it unless you are a die-hard budget audiophile. The money is better saved and spent at later.

I'd have to disagre 100%. I made several smaller upgrades inbetween my original set up to where I am now, and each time the differences were worth it, to me.

That being said, I'm not sure what advice to give. Perhaps the Sennheiser 580s or the AKG 271 would be a worthy, $200ish purchase that your current amp could handle. Even more important, however, is probably to get off digital music, especially if you are studying to be an sound engineer. I didn't think that one would find dramatic differences between good-ripped mp3/redbook, but the differences are stunning, in even a mid-fi high resolution system.

In this case, I'd say go for a new source (even the $50 earlier recomendation) and new cans, probably Senn 580s if they mate well with your current headamp. Then throw everything you've got at CDs.

 

[gsferrari]

WmAx - Have you auditioned several different headphone amplifiers and different sources to justify your statement that they CANNOT sound different?

I have and I can easily tell even VERY close amplifiers apart with various sonic clues. I can easily tell a Headroom MAX from a Rudistor, Creek from an MG Head, Perreaux from a Gilmore Lite...every amplifier regardless of solid state or tube, has its own sonic signature.

Are you an engineer? Ever study harmonics, distortion THD, bandwidth, gain, phase diagrams? All these factors influence sound and depend on the components used in the design and the basic design idea (Tube in, Tube out / Tube in, Solid state out / Solid state in, Tube out / SSin, SSout etc.)

Computers and Cameras are different - they are quantifiable. Sound is something else. Warranty Reliability etc. also matter a lot here - but in general - if something sounds good - it wins!

So far I havent found a "BAD" sounding audio component...too bad...

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However, the claims of so many similar solid state amplifiers sounding audibly different(often times drastic differences claimes) are unfounded

Please visit a HeadFi meet near you

This idea you have is wrong - the technical specs and details are obvious and auditory perceptions even more so.

 

[gsferrari]

Quote:

Originally Posted by oneeyedhobbit I'd have to disagre 100%. I made several smaller upgrades inbetween my original set up to where I am now, and each time the differences were worth it, to me.

Sure. I agree with you - I have also made tiny incremental changes that make a difference. Im not sure our friend here has the means or the need for these tiny changes. I am suggesting one BIG whopping change from what he already has will have more impact and be worth more than small incremental changes.

I look at it my way. I went from a system that cost a total of $300.00 to a system that now costs around $2000.00 - BANG! the difference hits me and makes me VERY happy...

 

[dougmwpsu]

First off, I’m engineering science right now, so I’m not sure where everyone got the idea that I was studying anything related to audio. I have heard that there aren't significant measurable differences between many amps, but I can't say that I believe everyone on the amp board is a delusional fool who is just hearing a placebo effect. Opinions are just that, but I’ve used them to effectively judge the strengths and weaknesses of my past 2 headphones purchases to a very large degree.
I’m not sure if I’m ready to ditch digital audio just yet. I know that there is a very large stigma attached to digital files on this board, but I just plain can't tell the difference. Even if differences do pop up once I make the upgrade, my files are either high bitrate or lossless. I also move every few months, so the more things my computer can replace the better. Not to mention the fact that having a searchable database of your music beats the pants off digging through plastic disks.
I did like the look of that home-vibe, but I’d have to wait till I see a few more people's impressions on it before I could count it a serious contender. The akg's get good reviews, but how do closed can’s sound compared to open? Would the sr-225's be an upgrade even without an amp? Could the 580's be driven with a 30$ studio amp? Where do the etys fall into all of this?
Thanks for the input guys.

 

[WmAx]

Quote:

- Have you auditioned several different headphone amplifiers and different sources to justify your statement that they CANNOT sound different?

When/where did I make this statement? I did not. In fact, they CAN sound different if one purposefully changes the amplitude response, to deviate from a flat response, or uses a method that purposeley induces audible levels of distortion. I classify such an amplifier as a poor design and/or defective.

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I have and I can easily tell even VERY close amplifiers apart with various sonic clues. I can easily tell a Headroom MAX from a Rudistor, Creek from an MG Head, Perreaux from a Gilmore Lite...every amplifier regardless of solid state or tube, has its own sonic signature.

I have no comment. See my first post.

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Are you an engineer? Ever study harmonics, distortion THD, bandwidth, gain, phase diagrams?

If I am an engineer, does this mean if I make an empty, usupported claim, that it is valid? Nope.

The parameters you list are very relevant to audible characteristics. However, modern designed equipment has no excuse to deviate THD, IMD, amplitude response or bandwidth to a degree which it is readily audible. Every paramter has a JND(just noticable difference). Audbility of distortion(s), phase deviation and amplitude response are hardly a mystery, and have been studied in acoustic research in order to find average JNDs.

Quote:

if something sounds good - it wins!

I agree. Their should be a lot of winners today.

-Chris

 

[gsferrari]

I would like to let you know that a flat response is what everyone strives to achieve. However - deviations provide better sound with headphones. Some manufacturers tube their headphones to the Sennheiser HD-650;s and others use the Sony R-10's. WE are after good sound - not a lab grade amplifier

You are insinuating that people here make empty unsupported claims? Possible...if it bothers you then you shouldnt bother reading them. Unfortunately most of these claims are repeatable and that is what matters to me most when I search for an amplifier for my headphones. Note - I dont search for a headphone that suits my amplifier

Im a nut

 

[WmAx]

Quote:

[I would like to let you know that a flat response is what everyone strives to achieve. However - deviations provide better sound with headphones. Some manufacturers tube their headphones to the Sennheiser HD-650;s and others use the Sony R-10's. WE are after good sound - not a lab grade amplifier

I do agree that amplitudre response differences can be desirable in some cases. However, it is not efficient to do so using piece of hardware that is non-linear and provides for no fine or accurate control over these characteristics. In this case of desirable amplitude response difference, the only logical answer to this in my view is an equalizer. The only thing preventing such an implementation is when it is not practical. It seems that stand alone low noise EQs are not portable, at least none that I could find. In that case, a portable DSP integrated device tht has such a feature would be optimal(Rio Karma which has multi band parametric eq, etc.). A transducer (headphone in this case)that deviates from an audible flat response is practical, though, as this allows for theoretically consistent performance on all properly designed, linear playback systems. The final transfer function that is preferred, it a completely subjective issue. Maybe some people can not get over certain subconscious factors of using an EQ? See my paragraph at the end of this reply.

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You are insinuating that people here make empty unsupported claims? Possible...if it bothers you then you shouldnt bother reading them.

Where can you find people that NEVER make unsupported claims? It's a moot point. You will probably find people that make unsupportable claims any place. Proportions may differ, but they will still be present.

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Unfortunately most of these claims are repeatable and that is what matters to me most when I search for an amplifier for my headphones. Note - I dont search for a headphone that suits my amplifier Im a nut

Well, their may be some confusion. I intially responded to this thread boldly, as to remind a future engineer of a basic principle important to his field. Had he not had used that thread title, I would likely have not been so bold. I also do not nescarrily disagree with using factors other then actual audible characteristics in order to find a product that makes one happy. Some people may not be able to get over some external stimuli or it simply may not be practical. In these cases, I endorse getting whatever makes someone happy. But this is not the same issue as actual audible factors that are confirmable with controlled testing. I do not mean to confuse these issues.

-Chris

 

[oneeyedhobbit]

Alright you two, back to your own respective corners

Lets not hijack the thread, here.