[Baxide]

  The capacitance of a cable is more likely to cause issues with the load on the output of an amp, however, one needs to have a pretty junky cable to have that much capacitance.. The inductance of an audio cable is far too low to cause audio issues, after all this is a cable, not a coil with a magnetic core.

Every time I read remarks like that, I have to smile. If only what you claim was true. But real life experiments conducted through the ages by many folks has produced a different outcome than you would have expected. Some of these multi strand cables with certain types of  insulation act as a significant capacitor. In RF coax cable they use teflon and airspacing to reduce these effects at RF. But at audio frequency it just gets accepted as irrelevant by many cable designers.

 

[arnyk]

 
have you got a link to some sort of academic paper on your suggestion that we can have a read of? Capacitance and inductance on a 1 meter length of cable can create quite a big shift in frequency within the audio band. The MIT cables with the "adjustment box" exploit that principle in order to change the sound of the audio signal going through their cable.

 
I don't think my Fields and Waves Textbook from 1966 is still in print.
 
You are changing the subject. Of course audio cables have capacitance and inductance but that was not the topic. The topic is when a cable starts behaving like a transmission line.
 
The usual rule of thumb is a cable has to be at least 1/4 wave long at the highest frequency of interest, which is 20 KHz for audio cables, but you can pick a higher frequency as it won't really matter.
 
The speed of propagation of electrical signals in cables is at least 0.6 the speed of light, which is 186,000 miles per second. Divide the speed of propagation by the frequency. There's your wavelength.
 
When a cable is too short to be properly analyzed as a transmission line, then the issues you raised can at least possibly be issues.
 
But, for regular audio gear (other than phono moving magnet phono cartridges) the capacitance and inductance of interconnects is too low to matter, and ditto for speaker cables attached to ordinary speakers. 

 

[StanD]

  Every time I read remarks like that, I have to smile. If only what you claim was true. But real life experiments conducted through the ages by many folks has produced a different outcome than you would have expected. Some of these multi strand cables with certain types of  insulation act as a significant capacitor. In RF coax cable they use teflon and airspacing to reduce these effects at RF. But at audio frequency it just gets accepted as irrelevant by many cable designers.

I haven't ever measured any significant capacitance in any of my cables and I don't purchase expensive cables. Do not onfuse the needs of RF vs. audio. So give us an example of such an audio cable that can be purchased?

 

[nick_charles]

 
have you got a link to some sort of academic paper on your suggestion that we can have a read of? Capacitance and inductance on a 1 meter length of cable can create quite a big shift in frequency within the audio band. The MIT cables with the "adjustment box" exploit that principle in order to change the sound of the audio signal going through their cable.

 
The "box" in the MIT cables really stops the cables fitting in with the normal definition of a cable...

 

[arnyk]

 
have you got a link to some sort of academic paper on your suggestion that we can have a read of? Capacitance and inductance on a 1 meter length of cable can create quite a big shift in frequency within the audio band. The MIT cables with the "adjustment box" exploit that principle in order to change the sound of the audio signal going through their cable.

 
 
 
You can find many relevant documents on the web. Google & Wikipedia are your friends. People haven't written scientific papers about this topic for maybe 100 years - it is a settled issue and thus it is just textbook fodder.
 
The assertion that "Capacitance and inductance on a 1 meter length of cable can create quite a big shift in frequency within the audio band." is utterly false if we are talking about regular audio cables, even those in large HT systems.
 
For example, most audio gear drives interconnects with line drivers that provide a source impedance of 75 ohms. Most audio cable has a capacitance of 20-30 pF a foot. A 20 foot audio cable therefore provides a load capacitance that maxes out at 600 pF, The frequency for a 3 dB loss and 45 degree phase shift is 4 MHZ, so the losses and phase shift in the audio band running up to 20 KHz or 100 Khz are negligible.

 

[mikoss]

...
You are changing the subject. Of course audio cables have capacitance and inductance but that was not the topic. The topic is when a cable starts behaving like a transmission line.

This was actually never the topic I was trying to bring up with this debate. Somebody else misinterpreted what I mentioned and included this. I agree 100% that distance is a huge factor wrt transmission line issues.

 

[kimosabe]

MaciekN, you are making a false assumption.

You are assuming that inexpensive wire has sound qualities different from expensive ones.

I'll buy that argument in terms of durability. Sound quality, no. If wires measure the same they sound the same. Placebo and expectation say otherwise, but those have been disproven - repeatedly and consistently - with blind listening tests. No one has ever passed a blind listening test for cables.

Debunking aside, a cable manufacturer would have a huge marketing interest in having people hear a difference with their cable. They could have a great ad campaign about how people can tell the difference with their cables while the competing cables can't be differentiated from a coathanger. They'd make millions.

Since cables have been fought over for 30 years, you'd think something like that would have happened by now.

Curious that it hasn't, isn't it? Testing only seems to be done by skeptics while those selling cables are terrified by a whiff of objectivity. Strange, because some objectivity would dramatically increase their sales.

It doesn't make any sense. Unless you suppose that cable manufacturers know they're selling a bogus product.

Cables are like nutritional supplement beverages and defense attorneys - never ask a question if you risk an adverse answer.
Let us remember that Monster began selling snake-oil cables and is now a multi-national conglomerate of epic proportions.
In fact, they manufacture Beats (regardless of what we may think of them, proving that Uncle Erik's Theorem of Snake Oil is quite apropos.

 

[Steve Eddy]

have you got a link to some sort of academic paper on your suggestion that we can have a read of? Capacitance and inductance on a 1 meter length of cable can create quite a big shift in frequency within the audio band. The MIT cables with the "adjustment box" exploit that principle in order to change the sound of the audio signal going through their cable.

No, it doesn't.

EDIT: Damn, didn't realize that was such an old post.

se

 

[Steve Eddy]

Cables are like nutritional supplement beverages and defense attorneys - never ask a question if you risk an adverse answer.
Let us remember that Monster began selling snake-oil cables and is now a multi-national conglomerate of epic proportions.
In fact, they manufacture Beats (regardless of what we may think of them, proving that Uncle Erik's Theorem of Snake Oil is quite apropos.

No, they don't. Dr. Dre and his partner wrangled Beats from Monster some years ago and sold it all to Apple for $3 billion earlier this year. I can't tell you how happy this made me, knowing that Noel Lee won't get a penny of that.

I was at Starbucks the other day. Three people in there were wearing headphones. Not one of them were a Monster product. They were all Beats.

Reminds me of a "letter" from Google to Yahoo I saw some years back.

"Dear Yahoo.

We've never heard anyone say "Gee, I don't know, Bob. Let's Yahoo it."

Just sayin'.

Sincerely,

Google."

se

 

[arnyk]

 
have you got a link to some sort of academic paper on your suggestion that we can have a read of? Capacitance and inductance on a 1 meter length of cable can create quite a big shift in frequency within the audio band. The MIT cables with the "adjustment box" exploit that principle in order to change the sound of the audio signal going through their cable.

 
Since all you have to back up your assertions seems to be your say-so, my evidence need be no better than that.
 
However, you seem to be so badly mislead, here's a life line: http://www.isu.edu.tw/upload/52/35/files/dept_35_lv_2_4168.pdf

 

[StanD]

   
Since all you have to back up your assertions seems to be your say-so, my evidence need be no better than that.
 
However, you seem to be so badly mislead, here's a life line: http://www.isu.edu.tw/upload/52/35/files/dept_35_lv_2_4168.pdf

 
Even though this is rudimentary EE, most audiophiles will not understand how to apply this knowledge. In the case of cable lovers and believers of anecdotal information, nothing will help.

 

[kimosabe]

No, they don't. Dr. Dre and his partner wrangled Beats from Monster some years ago and sold it all to Apple for $3 billion earlier this year. I can't tell you how happy this made me, knowing that Noel Lee won't get a penny of that.

I was at Starbucks the other day. Three people in there were wearing headphones. Not one of them were a Monster product. They were all Beats.

Reminds me of a "letter" from Google to Yahoo I saw some years back.

"Dear Yahoo.

We've never heard anyone say "Gee, I don't know, Bob. Let's Yahoo it."

Just sayin'.

Sincerely,

Google."

se

Yes, funny letter from Google.
 
I may be a bit more complicated..
 
According to Crunchbase, Monster still manufactures these headphones;
"Monster engineered and brought the Beats® headphones to market, and has since become the world's leading manufacturer of high-performance headphones. - See more at: https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/monster-cable-products-inc#x
 
Is it not possible that the manufacture is in the same factory(s)? under license from Dr. Dre et. al by Monster Cables (wherever in the world that is being done - they can assemble just the left headband hinge in the US and it can be marked Made in USA) ? This SOP, where product is made by company A, whose name never appears anywhere on product, website or legal declarations is commonly known as White Labeling, as I realize you are probably aware.
 
Is it possible that Dr. Dre --> Apple was a transfer of the business end of contract transfers [including guaranteed Cost of Goods Sold from Monster for X years], marketing, labeling and whatever sizzle Apple wishes wherein Dr. Dr et. al. relinquish said rights for the extra-value price of a mere $3B? 
  
Would be interesting to confirm all this conjecture from the inside.
 
Just sayin':
 
I think the three Beats headphones you saw were still, and always were manufactured - but not necessarily marketed, branded or priced - by Monster Cables, Inc.
That being perhaps the case, rumors of Noel Lee's demise or even loss of any income from the brand may be  a bit premature. Advertising don't come cheap, but it is squarely in the Apple wheelhouse. 
 
PS: let us agree to strike the phrase, "high performance" from the quote within the quote!
PPS: get ready to a whole lot more of sheeple wearing Beats in the not too distant future, IMHO

 

[Steve Eddy]

Give this a read.

http://gizmodo.com/5981823/beat-by-dre-the-inside-story-of-how-monster-lost-the-world

se

 

[dvw]

   
According to Crunchbase, Monster still manufactures these headphones;
"Monster engineered and brought the Beats® headphones to market, and has since become the world's leading manufacturer of high-performance headphones. - See more at: https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/monster-cable-products-inc#x
 
Is it not possible that the manufacture is in the same factory(s)? under license from Dr. Dre et. al by Monster Cables (wherever in the world that is being done - they can assemble just the left headband hinge in the US and it can be marked Made in USA) ? This SOP, where product is made by company A, whose name never appears anywhere on product, website or legal declarations is commonly known as White Labeling, as I realize you are probably aware.
 
Is it possible that Dr. Dre --> Apple was a transfer of the business end of contract transfers [including guaranteed Cost of Goods Sold from Monster for X years], marketing, labeling and whatever sizzle Apple wishes wherein Dr. Dr et. al. relinquish said rights for the extra-value price of a mere $3B? 
  
Would be interesting to confirm all this conjecture from the inside.
 
Just sayin':
 
I think the three Beats headphones you saw were still, and always were manufactured - but not necessarily marketed, branded or priced - by Monster Cables, Inc.
That being perhaps the case, rumors of Noel Lee's demise or even loss of any income from the brand may be  a bit premature. Advertising don't come cheap, but it is squarely in the Apple wheelhouse. 
 
PS: let us agree to strike the phrase, "high performance" from the quote within the quote!
PPS: get ready to a whole lot more of sheeple wearing Beats in the not too distant future, IMHO

 
Monster does not own the actual factory that manufacture Beats. It is owned by a third party OEM/ODM which also manufactures many other brands including some of the very highly touted headphones. Monster headphones and Beats are manufactured in the same factory though.

 

[Steve Eddy]

Monster does not own the actual factory that manufacture Beats. It is owned by a third party OEM/ODM which also manufactures many other brands including some of the very highly touted headphones. Monster headphones and Beats are manufactured in the same factory though.

From my read of the Gizmodo article, Dre an Iovine went with a different OEM/ODM than Monster was using.

se