[x838nwy]

I thought we are here to discuss matters, not each other's egos. If you feel you time is better spent elsewhere, that's awesome. There's no need to criticize the discussion, is there? If you've "hit the wall" a few times and have given up, that's awesome too. (Do you have any cables to sell, may be?)

Again, it's the criticism of those in favour. Why am i (or a few others with similar opinions) suddenly a "cable fan" and why must it be my ego in question here? Surely the "no difference" group has just as big an ego since they also came in droves to express their opinions. One group believes in one thing and another in the other. Each has their say. Why is one more desperate than another?

As for "break-throughs" i don't see many about. But what i was talking about was new models (i guess that's the right word). If they can bring out new models, i assume that means some kind of change over the old. If it's all bs then what need is the new? It's expensive to re-tool and manage stock. If the old bs sells then why go through all that crap?

And talking about wasting time, i've always recommend that one takes advantage of borrowing from dealers to test things out. Probably saves time looking at plots and graphs and all sorts.

 

[bigshot]

Don't get all upset. Do what I always try to do. Keep from being invested in the argument and just try to learn from the folks around you. There are people here in sound science with a ton of useful knowledge. Inevitably, whatever road you're going down, there's bound to be someone here who has been down that road before. Take advantage of that.

The real enemies are the high end audio salesmen who lie through their teeth and the snake oil equipment manufacturers.

Great sound isn't difficult or expensive. It is simple and cheap if you take advantage of the experience of folks who know what they are talking about and aren't there just to pick your pocket. In order to get useful advice, you have to ask the right questions. "Do cables make a difference?" isn't the right question.

 

[bigshot]

By the way, there are occasional "break throughs". You just need to be able to spot them. I'm not big on randomly borrowing stuff from dealers to try out. It is a LOT of work to set up a fair unbiased test. I'm not going to go to that trouble unless I know going in that there is a good chance I'm going to see an improvement.

What I do is to carefully research what I need for my system, identify what appears to be the best solution for my problem, buy what I need with a money back guarantee, then bring it home and test it thoroughly. If it works, I keep it. If not, back it goes. That has worked well for me in the past.

It's important to understand how your system works. Then you can identify the weak points and address your problems directly. Cables are almost never the weak point in a system. Spending time trying out various cables isn't going to get you very far.

 

[Don Hills]

 ...
It's important to understand how your system works. Then you can identify the weak points and address your problems directly. Cables are almost never the weak point in a system. Spending time trying out various cables isn't going to get you very far.

It can get worse.... Your preamp and power amp will have less than absolutely perfect output and input stages respectively, and their performance can be altered slightly by using cables with different characteristics (resistance, capacitance, inductance). You swap cables until you find some that provide what you judge to be the best sound. Then you start swapping the preamp or power amp in an effort to optimise that component. But that new component likely has a different susceptibility to cable differences, so your cable choice may no longer be optimal.

 

[wakibaki]

I know you guys are enjoying proceeding as though cables make a difference, but do you have any new evidence that they do?
 
If not, I don't know what you're doing in this section of the forum, unless you're trying to provoke a flame war. Take it elsewhere.
 
w

 

[cjl]

(in reply to Don, 2 posts above me)
 
Assuming you have a remotely decent amp (and sufficient gauge cables without any crazy capacitance or anything like that), the more likely scenario is that your amplifier is audibly perfect (not hard, for a modern amp), your cables are audibly perfect (trivially easy, unless you have a really, really long run of cable), and any changes you hear from changing either of them are purely psychologically driven.

 

[bigshot]

I'm with cjl... If I bought a solid state amp and it was anything other than "a wire with gain", I'd pack it back up in the box and return it. I have yet to find an amp that isn't that way, but I don't buy esoteric audiophile equipment or homebrewed designs. I buy big brand midrange solid state amps and have no problems.

 

[x838nwy]

By the way, there are occasional "break throughs". You just need to be able to spot them. I'm not big on randomly borrowing stuff from dealers to try out. It is a LOT of work to set up a fair unbiased test. I'm not going to go to that trouble unless I know going in that there is a good chance I'm going to see an improvement.

What I do is to carefully research what I need for my system, identify what appears to be the best solution for my problem, buy what I need with a money back guarantee, then bring it home and test it thoroughly. If it works, I keep it. If not, back it goes. That has worked well for me in the past.

It's important to understand how your system works. Then you can identify the weak points and address your problems directly. Cables are almost never the weak point in a system. Spending time trying out various cables isn't going to get you very far.

Okay. I'm not disagreeing to any of that but what i feel you've missed is my point. I'm not suggesting everyone goes out and borrow a bunch of cables and it will all be sorted out. I'm not even talking about upgrading or fixing any ailments in anybody's system.

The matter at hand is whether or not cables affect sound quality and there are people who feel they do and those who feel they do not. What i've been saying is that both sides have holes in their verifications of the facts and may be the best way to find out is to try it and see for yourself.

I am not and really have not invested particularly in this and believe me i have nothing to gain from this, i am just interested as i'm sure you are in the facts of things in general.

 

[x838nwy]

I know you guys are enjoying proceeding as though cables make a difference, but do you have any new evidence that they do?

If not, I don't know what you're doing in this section of the forum, unless you're trying to provoke a flame war. Take it elsewhere.

w

Thank you for pointing that out. If you do bot have time to read the past few pages, i can summarize them for you:

(My starting point is arbitrary)
1.) i posted a reference to a file (pretty old) posted by nordost. It tries to show measurable differences and effects from cables and supports etc.
2.) a number of members pointed out that more details are needed.
3.) i contacted nordost asking for the above.
4.) i put forward a few thoughts i have, all of which i feel are valid and logical as to why i feel the audiophile cable industry cannot all be bs.

I don't really want to paraphrase or summarize too much of other people's posts but safe to say a few people have expressed their disagreement and some are probably waiting for what nordost has to say. (Although a few are not expecting much.)

So i think we're still keeping things reasonable and i don't see anyone flaming anyone. Do you?

 

[bigshot]

I'm not suggesting everyone goes out and borrow a bunch of cables and it will all be sorted out. I'm not even talking about upgrading or fixing any ailments in anybody's system. The matter at hand is whether or not cables affect sound quality and there are people who feel they do and those who feel they do not.

If two cables sound different, there is only one reason for that... one of them is more accurately passing the signal across than the other. If a cable is distorting the sound in my system so badly that I can hear it, I want to be able to identify that problem and know how to correct it. Altering the signal is a problem, and randomly swapping cables in and out isn't a very good way of solving it.

I really don't think the folks who feel cables do have a sound have much credibility. I base that opinion on all of the less than credible people who share that belief that I have run across in the past.

Here is a much more productive question for the purpose of this forum and one that will get you a lot farther... x838nwy, If you're not totally happy with the sound you are getting, what do you think are the limitations in your own sound system and how do you plan to correct those problems?

 

[x838nwy]

Really bigshot i think we're talking about different things. Again just saying that if folks are questioning whether cables *can* affect sound all they need to do is borrow a few to try.

There are other topics of discussion elsewhere i just happen to be on this one as i sit in traffic on my way to work so it's kindda okay with me.

As for my own system, i'm pretty happy with the way it sounds. A little harsh at times but may be it's due to the nature of digital files. But i think we're always looking for and wondering if this is the best our systems could sound. I don't think anything needs to be 'wrong' necessarily but looking for ways to optimize the .flac->eardrum pathway is a worthwhile persuit for me. I'm not saying buying $10,000 cables will give me that, but just saying that in my experience, cables contribute.

 

[bigshot]

As for my own system, i'm pretty happy with the way it sounds. A little harsh at times but may be it's due to the nature of digital files.

Assuming you aren't listening to low bitrate lossy, you're attributing that harshness to the wrong thing. Digital audio is not inherently harsh. I'm sure all of us here at Sound Science would be happy to help you track down the source of the problem.

 

[wakibaki]

x838nwy
 
You have advanced a number of arguments.
 
Sophisticated arguments well suited to the defence of some hapless criminal in the dock.
 
I don't intend to refute them severally, I will merely say that they have this in common; they are inappropriate.
 
This is not a debate. No jury will hand down a verdict. I for one am happy to grant that you are clever and eloquent.
 
Correspondents here do depend on the results of double-blind testing, and deprecate attempts to discredit it. You should not propagandize against DBT here.
 
Unless you have new evidence regarding audible effects of cables, i.e. some new double-blind scientific study, you are merely rehearsing numerous of the arguments which survive outside of the Sound Science forum.
 
My advice to you is that you should reexamine your position. I, for one, wouldn't really regard you as an asset in a zombie apocalypse.
 
Quote:

4.) i put forward a few thoughts i have, all of which i feel are valid and logical as to why i feel the audiophile cable industry cannot all be bs.
 

 
Keep it to yourself or tout it on parts of the forum where reality checks are explicitly prohibited. I'm not interested in what you consider valid and logical, you've demonstrated that you're not qualified to hold an opinion.
 
w

 

[bigshot]

That's a bit strong... I didn't see him saying that DBT weren't valid. Of course they are. Measurements without controlled listening tests are meaningless, especially when the differences measured are pretty clearly below the threshold of human perception.

Yes wires may measure different. It takes a double blind listening test to determine if those differences are audible. You can't say, "I think I hear a difference." and then go looking for a measurement to back that up. That is totally backwards.

 

[wakibaki]

   
...there seems to be a false trust in double-blind tests...

 
Last thing I need on my side in a zombie apocalypse is another wishful-thinker.
 
w