[vrln]

Hey everyone,
 
Just wondering if someone else been following the new creation of mr. Westlake, also known as the creator of the DacMagic and most other Cambridge Audio products (Peachtree Audio too). They are just launching a few DAC (8200DQ), that on paper looks very promising:
 
- Sabre32 ESS9018
- Single ended and balanced output
- Digital preamp functionality via  64-bit DSP
- Async USB without extra drivers
- Made in China and mass produced with SMD components: good value
- Over 5 switchable digital filters for different sound signatures
 
It´s slowly starting to show up in some EU webstore lists already: http://www.audioaffair.co.uk/Audiolab-8200DQ-DAC/Pre-Amp/product_5026 for example. The 8200CDQ is already on the market. It´s the DQ with a CD tray, otherwise pretty much the same. I just bought one for my active monitors and I´m realy liking the supremely smooth sound. It doesn´t like some records, but on some it´s almost unreal how three dimensional it is. This is my first Sabre32 experience and I have to say I´m really impressed. It was just a loan from a local store, and I ended up keeping it. I still prefer my REF7, but this doubles as a preamp and has tons of inputs. It sounds so different compared to the REF7 that I don´t really see much point in comparing the two, at least since they run different rigs now.
 
My personal prediction is that this will become the next DacMagic in popularity (the early info seems to point out that it´ll be closer to the 800-1000 dollar market though, but still very good value for a Sabre32 product). The only drawback is that the chassis is pretty big, but later there will be a desktop version that will use a separate power supply.
 
Oh and mr. Westlake has been answering tons of question on a forum (the thread is over 130 pages) at http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=83778
 
No, I have nothing to do with Audiolab as a company, just wanted to bring this up for discussion as I haven´t seen it mentioned here yet. As most readers here are from the US and Audiolab is a less known brand there.

 

[vrln]

Oops, seems like there is a thread about this already from the days before it was delayed (September 2010). Oh well, I don ´t revive that anymore, but if any mods feel this post should be moved there, feel free to move it

 

[pasgod]

How is it different from the REF 7 ? Darker ? brighter ? leaner ?
 
Thanks.

 

[vrln]

Less detailed, smoother, more "easy listening", more polite. Darker too.

 

[Tomoyo]

I was wondering how good the headphone amp in the 8200DQ is if you tried with any headphones.

 

[vrln]

I don´t have the link, but Westlake has published some specs on it in the huge thread I linked to. If I remember correctly, it should be ok for low impedance phones, but I doubt it will run 300/600 ohm stuff well. The DQ is mostly a DAC/preamp, mostly meant for active speakers or standalone DAC use I think.

 

[svyr]

Less detailed, smoother, more "easy listening", more polite. Darker too.

I've tried to contact the distributor and the UK company that makes these (audiolab) but they either don't reply or the email form is broken or stop replying as soon as I start asking the right questions...
Basically, as the other form suggests there's a UK forum that people who own these hang out on, and it seems there are Sabre related problems on the units.
It also seems like you need to ship it back to fix it (new firmware presumably, swapping the flash chip)... The distributor doesn't seem to reply to whether the units they sell have been fixed.

I was going to get one of these but they also don't reply what the HP amp is like (output, specs, design)...

I'm not impressed in the slightest.

 

[vrln]

Quote:

I've tried to contact the distributor and the UK company that makes these (audiolab) but they either don't reply or the email form is broken

or stop replying as soon as I start asking the right questions...
Basically, as the other form suggests there's a UK forum that people who own these hang out on, and it seems there are Sabre related problems on the units.
It also seems like you need to ship it back to fix it (new firmware presumably, swapping the flash chip)... The distributor doesn't seem to reply to whether the units they sell have been fixed.

I was going to get one of these but they also don't reply what the HP amp is like (output, specs, design)...

I'm not impressed in the slightest.

The UK branch of Audiolab is indeed not exactly the most customer support orientated one out there. The best place to get answers is by messaging Westlake at the pink fish media forum I linked to, he´s been very active there. I fully agree that Audiolab hasn´t handled their job that well if the designer is the one doing the customer support.
 
What Sabre32 problems are you referring to? There are some firmware additions with new digital filters and things like that, but nothing Sabre32 related as far as I know. Some batches have had issues with a faulty CD drive mechanism (read problems) requiring a firmware update, but no such issues here. My unit has worked flawlessly so far, no issues with CD playback or optical digital input at least. So far I´m very impressed by it. You do have a point though, if one wants all the fixes it´s better to wait a while for the new updated units to come in.
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is the 8200CD&  CDQ software changelog:

v0.9 vs v0.7
============

support for 8200CDQ
support for Issue A01 of front panel with dual backlight current
sources&  reset IC
improved remote control decoding of handsets with excessive carrier
frequency offset
added display brightness adjustment
added Factory Defaults on powerup by holding Prev&  Next buttons
added 3 new digital filters: Minimum Phase, Optimal Transient XD&  DD


v1.0 vs v0.9
============

support for for Rev 1.11 of mainboard (trigger version)
single release works across all revisions of CD&  CDQ
workaround for servo software v83 SPDIF bug
fix a glitch on rapid toggling of filter settings
fix a bug where display brightness wasn't saved when selected via
handset's Display button
added Menu entry allowing to disable remote decoding of preamplifier
keys (volume&  mute)
improved handling of USB streaming restart (changing tracks etc.)


v1.1 vs v1.0
============

dropped USB Compatibility mode since iPad iOS 4.2+ now supports
Asynchronous through Camera Connection Kit
added optional volume&  mute control via USB
added External Preamp mode on CDQ to disable internal preamp
functionality (when used as a CD/DAC only)
changed Input Level Trim now also active in Home Theatre mode
changed front panel keypad handling - keys now operate even while
others are jammed
improved digital input selection via remote - last digital input
recalled when pressing Digital up/down
added discrete codes for input selection
added direct selection of filter by num keys 1~7 when in Filter popup
CD servo now reset 5s into powerup to insure initial calibration is
performed in stable conditions
support for servo software v86 with re-tuned radial loop
display track&  time on Reading Error screen
 

 

[svyr]

The UK branch of Audiolab is indeed not exactly the most customer support orientated one out there. The best place to get answers is by messaging Westlake at the pink fish media forum I linked to, he´s been very active there. I fully agree that Audiolab hasn´t handled their job that well if the designer is the one doing the customer support.
 
What Sabre32 problems are you referring to? There are some firmware additions with new digital filters and things like that, but nothing Sabre32 related as far as I know. Some batches have had issues with a faulty CD drive mechanism (read problems) requiring a firmware update, but no such issues here. My unit has worked flawlessly so far, no issues with CD playback or optical digital input at least. So far I´m very impressed by it. You do have a point though, if one wants all the fixes it´s better to wait a while for the new updated units to come in.

thanks for that. Heh, I also tried contacting JohnW on pink thingy forum, since he apparently works for a distrib or audiolab. Had to get an admin to increase his PM quota, but he didn't reply to my queries (whether relating to buying a fully updated unit from them or whether the distribs have fixed units, or about the HP amp).
Not sure about the specific problems, I think they might have been some SPDIF sync loss ones or usb ones aside from the CD one you mentioned... It was quite a while since I read that thread.

It's fairly tragic that the Firmware is not user upgradeable and even the distributors can't do it on their own/need to send back to UK...

The other thing is, even if they update the units, describing the HP amp design and stating the specs would be nice . There's something very unnerving about a product where everything else is heavily marketed, but the amp is merely mentioned

 

[vrln]

 
Quote:

thanks for that. Heh, I also tried contacting JohnW on pink thingy forum, since he apparently works for a distrib or audiolab. Had to get an admin to increase his PM quota, but he didn't reply to my queries (whether relating to buying a fully updated unit from them or whether the distribs have fixed units, or about the HP amp).
Not sure about the specific problems, I think they might have been some SPDIF sync loss ones or usb ones aside from the CD one you mentioned... It was quite a while since I read that thread.

It's fairly tragic that the Firmware is not user upgradeable and even the distributors can't do it on their own/need to send back to UK...

The other thing is, even if they update the units, describing the HP amp design and stating the specs would be nice

. There's something very unnerving about a product where everything else is heavily marketed, but the amp is merely mentioned

JohnW on that forum is John Westlake, the lead designer of the 8200CD/CDQ. He´s been extremely active and helpful on those forums, but he posted around a week ago that his father passed away and he will be taking at least a few weeks time off the forums. That´s most likely the reason your PM hasn´t been answered to. Before that, he answered pretty much all the questions there, PM or thread based. He even personally upgraded some of the members gear when he was in the UK/arranged several warranty swaps. I think there might have been some USB sync loss problems at least, but personally I don´t use USB at all. If I´ll need it and notice any issues, I´ll just have the unit upgraded under warranty. Most issues I´ve seen have been disc read issues though. SPDIF lock-on via optical works well here even with highly jittery sources: digital TV and Xbox360. The upcoming DQ model is the 8200DQ without the CD drive and a different volume knob. There´s also some interesting stuff about his future plans: might even include a custom DAC chip design to compete with Sabre etc.
 
There´s also tons of technical design trivia on those threads, for example about the Sabre32 chip compared to the competition/digital filters/over 180k uf of filtering in the CDQ model - way more than even most amplifiers have. The chassis is pretty lightweight (no 2cm aluminum panels here), but the unit still weighs over 6kg. 
 
If you scan through the huge 100+ page threads on that forum, I´m pretty sure I remember seeing JohnW post most of the specs of the HP amp section there (sorry, don´t remember where exactly) They should be included in the official specs though, I agree!

 

[svyr]

>If you scan through the huge 100+ page threads on that forum, I´m pretty sure I remember seeing JohnW post most of the specs of the HP amp section there (sorry, don´t remember where exactly) They should be included in the official specs though, I agree!

I'll pass . but thanks for letting me know about why John isn't replying.

A few weeks ago I've contacted 2 of their distribs to ask them to ask Audiolab to fix the contact form on their site (returns an aspx error). Unfortunately the distribs aren't replying either (HK and Aus) ... And those people sell it for nearly AU$2000 (well, the Aus one)... Anyway, all of that made me give up on buying a CDQ... If I can't contact them now, I'd hate to think what happens if I have a problem (I suspect I'd keep calling the distributor until my patience ran out then started posting on the pink thingy forum... oh, except the thread is closed there, I think...). But as I said, if you're in EU and especially in UK where they visit trade shows/etc, that's probably a different story.

Glad to hear your unit is working. Have you played with the HP amp at all? How's the sound sig/performance with different impedance HP? (or do you have the non-hp amp version?)
Any chance we can get you to pop the lid off and take some pics of the HP amp section?

 

[vrln]

The lid is held by some strange looking bolts I don´t have the right tool for... And I don´t own any dynamic headphones anymore 

 But yeah, I think it´s worth waiting a while for the situation to settle down. 
 
Edit: After 5 days of burn in I enjoy the CDQ even more. It´s relaxed, classy and absolutely non-fatiguing when using the "optimal transient" filter. If the Sabre32 has the reputation for sounding a bit "lean", there´s none of that to be seen here. Judging by this one product only, I´d say the Sabre32 is the most relaxed and warmest DAC chip out there. To me this just shows how huge a role the analog stage and the filters have.
 
The "optimal spectrum" adds instrument separation and clarity at the expence of the easy listening experience. The REF7 pulls more detail for sure, but the CDQ has an absolutely huge soundstage and almost every CD sounds good with it. Compared to the REF7, it is easily the more forgiving one. Bass is tighter on the REF7, but the CDQ goes deeper. It´s especially apparent with hip hop. The CDQ sounds more like I´d imagine a good analog turntable would sound. The digital preamp functionality is also fantastic with active speakers, making it a very convenient one box solution paired with a TV/consoles/a few active speakers. I stand by my prediction that the Q-dac/M-dac will become a great hit once launched. 

 

[domho7]

I had the cdq for almost 2 weeks and i am very happy with it.
IMHO this player is very engaging with lots of details and great soundstage.

 

[Szadzik]

Any more owners of this one? 8200CD looks pretty interesting, especially having a good DAC.
 
Opinions please if you have it.

 

[runswithaliens]

Quote:

The lid is held by some strange looking bolts I don´t have the right tool for... And I don´t own any dynamic headphones anymore 

 But yeah, I think it´s worth waiting a while for the situation to settle down. 
 
Edit: After 5 days of burn in I enjoy the CDQ even more. It´s relaxed, classy and absolutely non-fatiguing when using the "optimal transient" filter. If the Sabre32 has the reputation for sounding a bit "lean", there´s none of that to be seen here. Judging by this one product only, I´d say the Sabre32 is the most relaxed and warmest DAC chip out there. To me this just shows how huge a role the analog stage and the filters have.
 
The "optimal spectrum" adds instrument separation and clarity at the expence of the easy listening experience. The REF7 pulls more detail for sure, but the CDQ has an absolutely huge soundstage and almost every CD sounds good with it. Compared to the REF7, it is easily the more forgiving one. Bass is tighter on the REF7, but the CDQ goes deeper. It´s especially apparent with hip hop. The CDQ sounds more like I´d imagine a good analog turntable would sound. The digital preamp functionality is also fantastic with active speakers, making it a very convenient one box solution paired with a TV/consoles/a few active speakers. I stand by my prediction that the Q-dac/M-dac will become a great hit once launched. 

 
That is quite a good recomendation Vrin! Based on how you describe the effects of the Optimal Transient filter I am very interested in this, so have done a bit of looking around on the internets. Here what I have found so far:
 
A pair of reviews:

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/audiolab2/1.html
 
https://imgur.com/a/7vFBX    (Hi-Fi World)
 
Where to buy one in the Evil Empire? The Audiolab website doesn't list a U.S. distributor, but the Canandian distributor webpage does say it is shipping directly to the U.S. at $1399.00 USD for the 8200CDQ and $1299.00 for the 8200DQ ([size=xx-small]Available October/November 2011 according to distributor - although Audiolab's own website doesn't even list a DQ model yet).[/size]
 
https://www.planetofsounddistribution.com/products/m/Audiolab
 
I wonder if the DQ model will gain anything over the CDQ model in trade-off for losing the CD transport?