Audio Technica AT-OC9 MLII on SL1200

[nkoulban]

Hi fellow headfiers.

Anyone using the Audio Technica AT-OC9 MLII MC cartridge on a Technics SL1200? I am thinking of buying an SL1200 to
replace my aged Rotel PR850 and Garott P77. From posts I have seen elsewhere the SL1200 seems best with good
quality MM cartriges, however the AT-OC9 MLII looks like a killer cartridge and its brightness a good match for the
darker sounding SL1200. I also have a Cambridge 640p phono stage that may not be the best match for the AT-OC9 MLII.

I'd appreciate any feedback on others experiences.

Many thanks!

 

[memepool]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nkoulban /img/forum/go_quote.gif Hi fellow headfiers. Anyone using the Audio Technica AT-OC9 MLII MC cartridge on a Technics SL1200? I am thinking of buying an SL1200 to replace my aged Rotel PR850 and Garott P77.

Why? First off the tonearm on the Rotel RP-850 is much better quality than the stock one on the Technics SL1200. Putting an AT-0C9 on the Rotel would be the most obvious upgrade and it's a pretty capable deck.

You'd need to be looking at a VPI Scout or something in that class to really outperform the Rotel today as it was their top of the line offering in the mid '80s.

If you have that kind of budget to trade up and want a direct drive then I'd definitely go for the Technics and upgrade the tonearm on it. You could get a Linn pattern mounting plate to accomodate the Rotel arm made by some like these guys soundsupports.
Or else ditch the Rotel arm and get a Rega modified arm fromOrigin Live

This would give you a platform capable of supporting any cartridge you care to try but in stock form the Technics arm isn't really upto the job. The MM Garrot P77 cart, which is very very good BTW, is about as far as I'd go with it.

 

[nkoulban]

Lots to think about. Thank you for your thoughts. Might be worth me trying the AT OC9II cart on the old Rotel first to see how it goes. Still, after having auditioned an SL1200 I came way very impressed with its sound. Also, thanks for the links, looks like you can mount some killer arms on a Technics.

 

[memepool]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nkoulban /img/forum/go_quote.gif Lots to think about. Thank you for your thoughts. Might be worth me trying the AT OC9II cart on the old Rotel first to see how it goes. Still, after having auditioned an SL1200 I came way very impressed with its sound. Also, thanks for the links, looks like you can mount some killer arms on a Technics.

Also when was the last time you replaced the belt on the Rotel? might be worth cleaning the belt path and fitting a new one and perhaps recharging the main bearing with new oil. Turntablebasics.com has a good selection but it't worth measuring your existing belt and double checking the sizes to make sure you get a perfect fit.

I havn't heard a Rotel RP-850 in years but I remember being very impressed with it back in the 80s. It was certainly better than a Rega P3 and not far of a Systemdek or AR at the time I think.

The Technics is a great platform for upgrading into a killer audiophile class deck though especially at the price.

 

[searchenabler]

Memepool, have you seen any measurements/analysis of the Rotel PR850 arm? I have the Technics SL-Q2 deck(very similar in quality to a SL-1200 so far as the motor and chassis and arm) and it looks I can get a PR850 arm for it. I would have an adapter plate machined to mate it, of course. It uses the same shape mount as a SL-1200MKII, but a different bolt pattern.

Do you presume that arm is on equal(or superior) level of performance with the RB300?

This is a fun project for me. I am using this table in stock form for my blind comparisions of that SL1200 type arm to a high end Clearaudio arm. But I plan to mod this deck(remove all arm return mechanics - very easy with the way they made it) and bypass the auto arm on switch(tt rotates when stock arm is moved towards the platter and turns off when you set it back on the rest position). I was planning to mod this with a high quality arm, refinish the chassis to a piano black grade finish(several enamel coats with wet sanding inbetween and a final extensive polish/buffing step), applying generous levels of dynamat to the internal chassis and bottom of platter(I will static balance the platter after application). I intend for this to be a serious high fidelity record player when completed.

-Chris

 

[memepool]

From what I remember it's more akin to a basic Linn arm of the period, which were I think made in Japan by Jelco or somebody like that.
puremusicgroup - Jelco 10.5S Tonearm (Powered by CubeCart)
This one still made today resembles a Linn LVV and is obviously more retro in styling aimed at the Asian market. They are well made by all accounts but more in the fashion of the SME3009 with higher mass being used to aid rigidity, and therefore mored suited to low compliance moving coils.

I think the Rotel was a better medium mass design with a headshell designed around a collet fastened with a hex bolt rather like the Linn LVX and newer SME 309. I'll see what I can dig up.

 

[nkoulban]

To service my RP850 would involve oiling the main spindle, the tonearm bearings and replacing the silicone in the arm lift and replacing the belt.
I can do the belt ok, but I am at a bit of loss how to do the oiling and silicone. My guess is that I will need a syringe to oil the spindle carefully, the tonearm bearings and to syringe the arm lift. I assume a good quality light machine oil would be okay.

 

[searchenabler]

Quote:

Originally Posted by memepool /img/forum/go_quote.gif From what I remember it's more akin to a basic Linn arm of the period, which were I think made in Japan by Jelco or somebody like that. puremusicgroup - Jelco 10.5S Tonearm (Powered by CubeCart) This one still made today resembles a Linn LVV and is obviously more retro in styling aimed at the Asian market. They are well made by all accounts but more in the fashion of the SME3009 with higher mass being used to aid rigidity, and therefore mored suited to low compliance moving coils. I think the Rotel was a better medium mass design with a headshell designed around a collet fastened with a hex bolt rather like the Linn LVX and newer SME 309. I'll see what I can dig up.

Thanks. But how would you rate this Rotel fitted unit as compared to a RB300 in terms of resonance? Do you think this design is equal to, lesser than or superior? How about in other areas of performance? My objective is to at minimum match the RB300 arm, but I specifically do not want an RB300 due to aesthetic reasons.

What grade of arm are those Jelco SA-250ST arms compared to a RB300?

I'm sorry to bother you, but you seem to have rather extensive knowledge of the objective test results of many arm systems. Remember -- that offer to give you large chunk of server space is always open to have permanent home for all vinyl related measurement data.

-Chris

 

[searchenabler]

BTW, nkoulban, assuming your arm is of appropriate mass (around 9-10 grams + the weight of the cartridge and added 'extra' spacer weight), I suggest the moving coil Denon DL-110. I hardly see how one can get a better cartridge even if they spend 10x as much. It's flat in response, has very low distortion, great channel separation and tracks superbly. I prefer it to my last cartridge I used to own which cost far more: Clearaudio Virtuosso Wood - which costs the better part of $1k today. I value accuracy over coloration(s), which is why I prefer the superb Denon. The price is highly deceitful of the quality you get! Despite it's price, it utilizes a fine quality nude shank diamond and is hand made and quality controlled in Japan by Denon. Perhaps it's frequency response is not *perfectly* neutral - but it is mostly so; superior to most - and besides - what cartridge is absolute tonal neutral to human hearing(20hz-20khz, +/- 0.1dB would be minimum requirement to achieve this)? I use this cartridge on a table that costs $1600(Marantz TT-15S1 - made by Clearuadio), and I consider this table better than most - a steal even - in this price range due to it's superb engineering and arm. I'm just tying to point out that the Denon DL-110 is perfectly suited to very high quality turntables despite it's low price tag.

Chris

 

[nkoulban]

I also have been thinking about a DL110 or a DL160. These carts are good value and they are high output MCs. I was a bit worried on how well these Denons will match with my Cambridge 650p phono stage, at 1.6mv the MM input won't have enough gain and the MC input may overload. If someone uses these carts with a 640p okay and if they give low surface noise, then they may be a better option than the Audio Technica.

 

[searchenabler]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nkoulban /img/forum/go_quote.gif I also have been thinking about a DL110 or a DL160. These carts are good value and they are high output MCs. I was a bit worried on how well these Denons will match with my Cambridge 650p phono stage, at 1.6mv the MM input won't have enough gain and the MC input may overload. If someone uses these carts with a 640p okay and if they give low surface noise, then they may be a better option than the Audio Technica.

Actual output is 2.2mV. They will work great on 38dB and higher MM input stages. There is a great deal at music direct right now for the Music Hall Phono Pack pre for $80. While the MM input is not high enough, the MC input is lower than usual(52dB) and may work perfectly. There is the issue of possible input impedance mismatch causing FR error on the input of the MC mode. However, I ordered one just to measure. I'll let you know in a few days(it will be here Wed. and I plan to test by weekend) how my measurements turned out. If it's a flat response into that load, it will be perfect, and this unit is considered a stellar performer. Many subjective reviews claim it to be near the best thing around for the <$500 budget range, apparently, even though I don't really consider subjective reviews to be worth much. But it's specs are superb. Look it up.

-Chris

 

[memepool]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nkoulban /img/forum/go_quote.gif I can do the belt ok, but I am at a bit of loss how to do the oiling and silicone. My guess is that I will need a syringe to oil the spindle carefully, the tonearm bearings and to syringe the arm lift. I assume a good quality light machine oil would be okay.

You need to remove the platter and pull the bearing out of it's shaft. Then wipe it with lint free paper towels and clean out the old oil from the sump with the kind of extra long cotton buds (q-tips) you get for cleaning tape heads. Once your're happy it's clean then put in about 2ml of new oil.

Light machine oil like they use on a sewing machine or else synthetic engine oil like Mobil One are popular options. You can of course buy all kinds of exotic audiophile concoctions. You could email Rotel and ask them what they recommend as well.

Audio Origami sell nice kits which contain everything you need to do this.

You can also get replacement silicon for the cuing mechanism from turntablebasics if needs be, but I wouldn't touch the bearings in the tonearm as it's a very specialised job and you are more likely to do harm than good. If the tonearm is free from play then it's fine and should be left well alone.


Quote:

Originally Posted by searchenabler how would you rate this Rotel fitted unit as compared to a RB300 in terms of resonance? Do you think this design is equal to, lesser than or superior? How about in other areas of performance? My objective is to at minimum match the RB300 arm, but I specifically do not want an RB300 due to aesthetic reasons. What grade of arm are those Jelco SA-250ST arms compared to a RB300? .

I found a review of the Rotel which was pretty positive from a 1987 Hi-Fi Choice, where they mentioned that the arm had accelerometer spikes at 200hz ( counterweight resonances ) and a fairly severe one at 1khz (lively headshell) but they didn't publish the graphs as it was a reprint of an earlier review which they just referred back to and I don't have that edition unfortunately. I will try and go further back as this deck was around a long time.
Without seeing the plot it's difficult to say but on the face of it this would suggest it's inferior to a Rega RB300 but probably no worse than an entry level '80s Linn which isn't all that bad by any means. Not in the same class as an arm like your Clearaudio though.

The Jelco arm in the link is a higher mass (18g) 10.5" model I would say aimed at owners of vintage decks like the Garrard / Thorens who want something that looks vintage without paying top dollar for an older SME. They do make other arms though which you see these days on the decks coming out of China by people like Consonance. I think they are generally considered the thing for people who want something that sounds a bit more lively ( less neutral) than the Regas or for decks which don't match Regas, those with lighter subchassis for instance.

Have you considered a Project 9 carbon fibre arm perhaps? this would be the cheapest modern alternative to the Rega I think. They are made to very high standards in the Czech Republic. The new Linn Sondek Magik edition comes with one so they are pretty well esteemed.

 

[nkoulban]

Hi,

I very much appreciate the advice.

I had a go at oiling the spindle with a light machine oil (without dissasembly) and oiling the the tonearm. Wow!!!! what a difference, its like a new deck!!!
I am just staggered by the improvement. Here I was thinking that the turntable and the Garott P77 were past it... how wrong I was.

Now I want to give it a proper service. To clean and lube the main spindle bearing properly I will need to dissasemble the spindle. I'm not sure how to do this, but the spindle has a hex nut shape at its base, I think I'll need to use a small spanner here and then the spindle assembly should come apart. As for the tomearm bearings, a light oil applied with a syringe should do the trick in the future.

The cueing arm will also need to be also dissasembled (I think) so I can get the silicone fluid in... I'll need to examine the arm carefully to work out how to do this, any ideas welcomed.

 

[memepool]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nkoulban /img/forum/go_quote.gif Now I want to give it a proper service. To clean and lube the main spindle bearing properly I will need to dissasemble the spindle. I'm not sure how to do this, but the spindle has a hex nut shape at its base, I think I'll need to use a small spanner here and then the spindle assembly should come apart. As for the tomearm bearings, a light oil applied with a syringe should do the trick in the future.

If the difference is that dramatic chances are the old oil had solidified and seized up the bearing which is not good obviously. I would strip it down asap before you use it as the solidified gunk can damage the polished surfaces of the bearing well which causes grinding noises which of course are transmitted to the stylus when you play a record.
Strip the whole thing down and clean it with isopropyl and polish the surfaces with lint free paper towels. Check carefully for any pits or imperfections. The bottom thrust plate under the bearing is the part which usually wears out first and you can get new Teflon ones from this company SRM Tech
If there is any sign of slight damage to the bearing shaft you can alleviate it somewhat by using heavier grades of oil, but the deck isn't that old so it's more likely just seized up through lack of use. Obviously different grades of oil will effect the sound so you may want to experiment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nkoulban /img/forum/go_quote.gif The cueing arm will also need to be also dissasembled (I think) so I can get the silicone fluid in... I'll need to examine the arm carefully to work out how to do this, any ideas welcomed.

The little damping pot which the cueing platform is usually attached to is generally fastened with a tiny hex bolt somewhere and should be able to be popped out without removing the arm at all if you are careful.

 

[nkoulban]

Thanks memepool!!!