[Wage]

Thank you very much, hellenic.
 
While I admit I'm much more well versed in video than audio at this point, I will continue to research this until I understand the graphs fully. If what I'm reading is true, though, I suppose all I need for my upcoming Denon AH-D7000s is the ST I already have. I'd love to get the ONE if not only because it is external to the machine (and thus much more convenient for using on multiple computers); however, I also don't want to fall into the crowd who takes psychological gains as being more important than factual ones.
 
Hopefully ROB or someone else who actually understands all this can chime in, because I'd still love to have a reason to sell my ST and get a ONE (as that was my original intention)...

 

[vrln]

Measurements have little in common with how subjectively good something sounds, almost none. Is the ST more accurate? You can build an almost perfectly measuring CMOY with a few cheap opamps. Sure the ST is more accurate, but the thing is this hobby isn't about accuracy at all if you ask me. It's about making sound enjoyable to listen to. In a blind test I would never choose the STX over the E1, the E1 simply sounds so much better to me. It still measures quite well too.

 

[ROBSCIX]

@Hellenic,  Man, wouldn't it be great if measurements actually did relate directly to sound quality?
It would make my job so much easier as I wouldn't have to listen!  I could just compare some graphs and be done with it.  I have tested every single product you have mentioned and a few notes, I doubt you would hear any difference between an HDAV 1.3 and a STX/ST.
 
The trouble is, you cannot look at a graph and see sound quality.  You can see signal quality and the two are NOT the same thing.  You can have a device that measures great but just doesn't sound that good and devices that measure not so great but just have that magic that people love to hear.  Think of an expensive tube amp, the measurements might not be that good in comparison to other types of amps but most would enjoy their presentation.
A digital amp in comparison may produce higher measurments but sound cold, sterile and lifeless to the same people.  Don;t get me wrong, I am not saying the ST(X) cards sound bad, they do not.  What I am saying is don't assume the One sounds worse because it does not produce the same measurements.
 
Nobody was suggesting the One measured better then the STX/ST, you don't need to measure it to know that, all you have to do is read the specification!
Audio is subjective and people like or don't like what they hear, measurements have little to do with it in the end.
 
I am glad a person mentioned the Cmoy, that is a true point.  Some devices measure great but don't sound that good or some devices might measure not to good in comparison but just sound better to the ears.  That is the way of audio, it is all subjective.  If you like your ST, great enjoy it, that is what it is all about.
 

 

[ROBSCIX]

Quote:

Thank you very much, hellenic.
 
While I admit I'm much more well versed in video than audio at this point, I will continue to research this until I understand the graphs fully. If what I'm reading is true, though, I suppose all I need for my upcoming Denon AH-D7000s is the ST I already have. I'd love to get the ONE if not only because it is external to the machine (and thus much more convenient for using on multiple computers); however, I also don't want to fall into the crowd who takes psychological gains as being more important than factual ones.
 
Hopefully ROB or someone else who actually understands all this can chime in, because I'd still love to have a reason to sell my ST and get a ONE (as that was my original intention)...

I would say have a listen and decide for yourself.  Graphs are good for certain things and other aspects cannot be shown on a graph.  I have tested and own basically every component being talked about and right now, I am enjoying the one greatly.  You have heard impressions from many people that have actually heard both products but they are mainly opinions.
You may like the signature of the STX/ST better but you will never now until you hear the One also.

 

[hellenic vanagon]

Quote:

@Hellenic,  Man, wouldn't it be great if measurements actually did relate directly to sound quality?
It would make my job so much easier as I wouldn't have to listen!  I could just compare some graphs and be done with it.  I have tested every single product you have mentioned and a few notes, I doubt you would hear any difference between an HDAV 1.3 and a STX/ST.
 
The trouble is, you cannot look at a graph and see sound quality.  You can see signal quality and the two are NOT the same thing.  You can have a device that measures great but just doesn't sound that good and devices that measure not so great but just have that magic that people love to hear.  Think of an expensive tube amp, the measurements might not be that good in comparison to other types of amps but most would enjoy their presentation.
A digital amp in comparison may produce higher measurments but sound cold, sterile and lifeless to the same people.  Don;t get me wrong, I am not saying the ST(X) cards sound bad, they do not.  What I am saying is don't assume the One sounds worse because it does not produce the same measurements.
 
Nobody was suggesting the One measured better then the STX/ST, you don't need to measure it to know that, all you have to do is read the specification!
Audio is subjective and people like or don't like what they hear, measurements have little to do with it in the end.
 
I am glad a person mentioned the Cmoy, that is a true point.  Some devices measure great but don't sound that good or some devices might measure not to good in comparison but just sound better to the ears.  That is the way of audio, it is all subjective.  If you like your ST, great enjoy it, that is what it is all about.
 

Ο.k. mr. Robscix, let's forget evrything about measurements!
(You see, when they are good, evrybody advertises them as something very important, directly connected to sound quality.When they aren't, the second theory of no connection is used.)
 
Now we are talking about  sound quality without measurements!
 
We are having two dacs.
 
The sound quality of the first is described like this:
 
 
 
"The verdict is easy on this one based on some very extensive testing this card sounds excellent and provide sound quality well beyond its price point.  This card produces sound quality on par with sources many times the listed price.  The DAC's, filters, power section and circuit designs are all intended to produce the best sound for this price point.  The card produces a warm "tubey" type of sound with balanced bass, smooth midrange and highs.  The detail and clarity on this card is very pronounced, the card hides nothing allowing you to hear exactly what you have in your music."
 
 
 
The sound quality of the second is described in these words:
 
"We found the Essence One to have excellent overall sound quality.  The unit has a more laid back, mature type of sound quality usually presented from more well established DAC builders and missed by those new to this area.  In comparison a source such as the STX is more upfront and in your face whereas the E1 is a bit mellower and laidback."
 
 
 
It is obvious that the reviewer, who is you in both cases, grades much more higher the first, in terms of sound quality, which is ST!
 
 

 

 

[ROBSCIX]

Don't get me wrong measurements can be very important for certain things but you need to understand what they show and do not show.
Let me offer a few examples, earlier you said the ST is much better then the HDAV, when in fact they both measure very close. So close that most would say you wouldn't be able to tell them apart with your ears. 
Another point, many people also say the ST sounds better then the STX, but IIRC, the ST actually measures slightly worse then the STX so why does it sound so much better to those that have tried both, do you see the point?
 
They both are excellent audio sources but for me, where I am right now, I like the sound quality of the Essence One over the ST(X) but they have very different signatures.
I like both products, why does liking one mean I can't like the other? You never know I may change to something else tomorrow. and start using that.
 
I am not sure what your point is here or what you are trying to prove?
If you want to discuss subjective opinions further, please feel free to PM me also.
 
I would suggest, that you go and listen to the Essence One and decide for yourself it is a good source or not.
Use whatever sounds the best to you, that is what most of us here do!

 

[stv014]

Quote:

 
Another point, many people also say the ST sounds better then the STX, but IIRC, the ST actually measures slightly worse then the STX so why does it sound so much better to those that have tried both, do you see the point?

 
Did at least one of those many people actually perform a serious, level matched double-blind test ? Regarding the ST measuring worse, is that statistically verified, or based only on the Stereophile review ?
 

 

[ROBSCIX]

Quote:

 
Did at least one of those many people actually perform a serious, level matched double-blind test ? Regarding the ST measuring worse, is that statistically verified, or based only on the Stereophile review ?
 

IIRC, it was based on a few different tests done by different people here and in other forums. 
Understand though, the differences were ever so slight but it came as a surprise to many that have heard both and prefer the ST over the STX.  You would think that the ST would show large differences but it doesn't.  It was just an example, don't take is as me suggesting the ST is inferior to the STX as they are both excellent sources.
 

 

[hellenic vanagon]

Quote:

 
Another point, many people also say the ST sounds better then the STX, but IIRC, the ST actually measures slightly worse then the STX so why does it sound so much better to those that have tried both, do you see the point?
 
 

But sir where did you find that ST measures worse than STX?
 
If you mean "STEREOPHILE", they have done two basic mistakes:
 
1)measured ST in an old PC, so there where'nt equal parameters for the two cards.
 
2)mr. Atkinson absolutely ignored the -31% for jitter which is given by ASUS!  He didn't say even a word about this so important characteristic!
 
 
Now here are your measurements about the two cards:
 
Frequency Response
 
STX:
 

 
 
ST:
 

 
 
Dynamic Range
 
STX:
 

 
ST:
 

 
 
 
THD+N:
 
STX:
 

 
 
ST:
 
 

 
 
 
Stereo Crosstalk
 
STX:
 

 
 
ST:
 

 
 
 
Intermodulation Distortion
 
STX:
 

 
 
 
ST:
 

 
 
 
Noise Level
 
STX:
 

 
 
ST:
 

 
 
STX:
http://www.guru3d.com/article/asus-xonar-essence-stx-review/15
 
ST:
http://www.guru3d.com/article/asus-xonar-essence-st-deluxe-review/11
 
 
As it is expected, the measurements are according the manufacturer, which means equal.
 
 
The only difference is here:
 
 
JITTER : (Fom the "STEREOPHILE's" well known review).
 
STX: (170-180 ps, 16 bit)
 

 
 
 
ST: (10-20 ps, 24 bit)
 

http://www.soundtrackforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&p=1547
 
 
The ST sounds better than STX, having much lower jitter.
 
Of course this can be expressed by the above measurements! 
 
And to be honest, never in my life, (53 years old, having the hobby from my 10), saw a sound device, with medium specifications, sounding perfectly. There were always a lot of salesmen trying to convice me about this, though. 
 
 

 
 

 

[ROBSCIX]

 
Quote:

But sir where did you find that ST measures worse than STX?
 
As it is expected, the measurements are according the manufacturer, which means equal.
 
The ST sounds better than STX, having much lower jitter.
 
Of course this can be expressed by the above measurements! 
 
And to be honest, never in my life, (53 years old, having the hobby from my 10), saw a sound device, with medium specifications, sounding perfectly. There were always a lot of salesmen trying to convice me about this, though. 
 

 

The info is around, if you want to look, slightly worse or equal, still shows my point.
Now, that is as far as I feel like going on this subject because in all honesty, I really have no idea what your point is.
In this thread you are trying to say how good the ST is and in the ST thread you are suggesting how bad it is, so I am getting the impression that you just want to argue that may or may not be the case.
 
I am not trying to convince anybody of anything, I can only offer my personal opinion based on my testing.
 
So, use whatever you want based on whatever information you want and enjoy.

 

[ROBSCIX]

On topic,  I built some new opamp modules this morning for use in my sources.  The LME49990 modules for the head amp outputs.  I built a specialized high grade module for the final buffer section of the line output, don't want to say what it is as of yet, until I get the result of my testing.
Looking forward to doing some testing here when I get some time.  I am still a fan of the LME49720HA to replace the chip versions.  Just pushes the stock circuit a bit further.

 

[hellenic vanagon]

Quote:

 
The info is around, if you want to look, slightly worse or equal, still shows my point.
Now, that is as far as I feel like going on this subject because in all honesty, I really have no idea what your point is.
In this thread you are trying to say how good the ST is and in the ST thread you are suggesting how bad it is, so I am getting the impression that you just want to argue that may or may not be the case.
 
I am not trying to convince anybody of anything, I can only offer my personal opinion based on my testing.
 
So, use whatever you want based on whatever information you want and enjoy.

Just one more sentence: never said that ST is not good, since I declare proud owner for two years now!
 
Thank you for your time!
 
 

 

 

[ROBSCIX]

Quote:

Just one more sentence: never said that ST is not good, since I declare proud owner for two years now!
 
Thank you for your time!
 

 

Great, enjoy.
 

 

[vrln]

Some more questions for you opamp rollers out there... I´m going to start with dual channel opamps just to be safe, then move on to soldering single channel ones with the adapters.
 
(1) Why does E1 use dual channel opamps if it´s a full mono design? For example the headphone output runs on two LME49720NA opamps: does this mean each opamp runs both channels on a single left/right signal, or does each left/run signal just run through two separate opamps?
 
(2) As I´m looking to get the following dual channel opamps: AD827, LME49720, LME49860, OPA2107, OPA2111. I´ve browsed Digikey and I think I´ve found the ones suitable (right package etc) for the E1. These are:
 
AD827: http://search.digikey.com/fi/en/products/AD827JNZ/AD827JNZ-ND/819983
LME49720: http://search.digikey.com/fi/en/products/LME49720NA%2FNOPB/LME49720NA-ND/1647708
LME49860: http://search.digikey.com/fi/en/products/LME49860NA%2FNOPB/LME49860NA-ND/1647710
OPA2107: http://search.digikey.com/fi/en/products/OPA2107AP/296-19953-5-ND/251135
OPA2111: http://search.digikey.com/fi/en/products/OPA2111KP/296-12983-5-ND/251137
 
Does everything look ok?
 
(3) Is the correct DIP8 one this: [size=small]8-DIP (0.300", 7.62mm)? I´m asking because it seems there are a few competiting 8-DIP standards.[/size]

 

[ROBSCIX]

Quote:

Some more questions for you opamp rollers out there... I´m going to start with dual channel opamps just to be safe, then move on to soldering single channel ones with the adapters.
 
(1) Why does E1 use dual channel opamps if it´s a full mono design? For example the headphone output runs on two LME49720NA opamps: does this mean each opamp runs both channels on a single left/right signal, or does each left/run signal just run through two separate opamps?
 
(2) As I´m looking to get the following dual channel opamps: AD827, LME49720, LME49860, OPA2107, OPA2111. I´ve browsed Digikey and I think I´ve found the ones suitable (right package etc) for the E1. These are:
 
AD827: http://search.digikey.com/fi/en/products/AD827JNZ/AD827JNZ-ND/819983
LME49720: http://search.digikey.com/fi/en/products/LME49720NA%2FNOPB/LME49720NA-ND/1647708
LME49860: http://search.digikey.com/fi/en/products/LME49860NA%2FNOPB/LME49860NA-ND/1647710
OPA2107: http://search.digikey.com/fi/en/products/OPA2107AP/296-19953-5-ND/251135
OPA2111: http://search.digikey.com/fi/en/products/OPA2111KP/296-12983-5-ND/251137
 
Does everything look ok?
 
(3) Is the correct DIP8 one this: [size=small]8-DIP (0.300", 7.62mm)? I´m asking because it seems there are a few competiting 8-DIP standards.[/size]

1.  Without a big explaination, the system just uses dual channel opamps.   One LME49720 has left signal for headphones and the other has right.
2. Those should all work fine although, I have not personally tested the AD827 and LME49860 although, I did like the OPA2107, 2111's and LME49720 but my 2111's and 49720 are custom made TO-99 metal can opamps so they are a bit higher grade then the chip version.