Astell & Kern AK70 MKII with dual DAC

[Mython]

Summary:
Astell&Kern did a great job creating such a DAP more or less comparable to the one, which was once TOTL, at this price point.

Thankyou for sharing your comparisons.

I must say, however, that iRiver haven't achieved anything new or clever in creating a DAP nearly comparable to the AK240, for less money - there are competitors who are achieving much the same thing. I am in absolutely no doubt that the AK70 Mkii could've been made to sound 100% as capable as the AK240 - the difference in price of the audio circuitry components will be quite trivial, in each of these DAPs.

In releasing the AK70 Mkii, all iRiver have done is re-use much of the (outrageously-overpriced) AK240 design principles and componentry and reduced their (and their dealers') profit margins - something they could have done all along, but, until recently, chose not to do.

I'm pleased to see iRiver behaving in a more socially-responsible manner, in recent months, but it's not an 'accomplishment' to reduce the price of their DAPs - it's nothing more than a change of marketing strategy.

As someone who's been vocal in my criticism of their marketing strategy, in previous years, I am just as pleased as anyone else to see them releasing DAPs in the $500-$1000 sector - so much so, that the AK70ii is the first ever DAP from iRiver that I might actually consider purchasing, at some point, and I don't say that lightly, as I've viewed their corporate greed with disdain, this past few years.

Let's just call a spade a spade: iRiver make some really nice, and generally well-engineered, DAPs. Their pricing, however, is, and always has been, largely a matter of how greedy they and their dealers choose to be, for each model. They don't deserve a pat on the back for being less greedy; just a nod of acknowledgment.

Whether the recent change in marketing strategy was self-motivated, or whether their hand was forced by the ever-improving quality of competitors' products in the $500-$1000 sector is something one would need to ask an iRiver employee, but each of us will have our own guess about this.

 

[Giraku]

fyi, mk2 works with iphone 7 (but not the SE) when it comes to acting as a usb dac... just tried it at the shop

Good to know. Thanks.

 

[Giraku]

Let's just call a spade a spade: iRiver make some really nice, and generally well-engineered, DAPs. Their pricing, however, is, and always has been, largely a matter of how greedy they and their dealers choose to be, for each model. They don't deserve a pat on the back for being less greedy; just a nod of acknowledgment.

Whether the recent change in marketing strategy was self-motivated, or whether their hand was forced by the ever-improving quality of competitors' products in the $500-$1000 sector is something one would need to ask an iRiver employee, but each of us will have our own guess about this.

I agree that their pricing is mostly ridiculous, especially the BlueNote edition of AK240 in Japan (~$7k now down to $2k). But at the same time, they are very successful in business, which means their pricing scheme was nasty but clever and successful to establish their bland shooting for the high-end market.
Anyway, I'm a sucker to those crazy pricing. That's why I own 3 AK DAPs and 4 Ultrasone Edition HPs...

 

[tommy1st]

I agree that their pricing is mostly ridiculous, especially the BlueNote edition of AK240 in Japan (~$7k now down to $2k). But at the same time, they are very successful in business, which means their pricing scheme was nasty but clever and successful to establish their bland shooting for the high-end market.
Anyway, I'm a sucker to those crazy pricing. That's why I own 3 AK DAPs and 4 Ultrasone Edition HPs...

I always want to listen to hugo and hugo 2. What do you think compare to AK DAPs?

 

[Giraku]

I always want to listen to hugo and hugo 2. What do you think compare to AK DAPs?

In my experience, the only AK DAP that can compete against Hugo 2 is SP1000. Although their sound signature is different, sound quality of SP1000 is comparable to Hugo 2. That being said, Hugo 2 has much more powerful amplifier section than SP1000.
I don’t have Hugo so that I cannot comment about it.

 

[tommy1st]

In my experience, the only AK DAP that can compete against Hugo 2 is SP1000. Although their sound signature is different, sound quality of SP1000 is comparable to Hugo 2. That being said, Hugo 2 has much more powerful amplifier section than SP1000.
I don’t have Hugo so that I cannot comment about it.

Yeah. I think for the amp section Hugo 2 is clearly much powerful. However in terms of detail, depth of the sound. What do you think AK70 MKII compare to Hugo 2? Will dual dac/amp setup benefit?

 

[Stevemitchell]

The Hugo 2 is 740mW compared to the A&K70mkii @ 500mW, both into 32ohms. That difference just allows for slightly more headroom on peaks from fully-digital recordings. For there to be a significant difference in power, the scale is logarithmic, and the Hugo would have to be on the order of 7.4W, just to play twice as loudly. As far as the "sound", I've not experienced the Hugo 2, so I can make no claims as to performance. I would like to audition one for the experience.

 

[Giraku]

The Hugo 2 is 740mW compared to the A&K70mkii @ 500mW, both into 32ohms. That difference just allows for slightly more headroom on peaks from fully-digital recordings. For there to be a significant difference in power, the scale is logarithmic, and the Hugo would have to be on the order of 7.4W, just to play twice as loudly. As far as the "sound", I've not experienced the Hugo 2, so I can make no claims as to performance. I would like to audition one for the experience.

It's not that simple. HPs/IEMs impedance is quite variable depending on the sound it's playing at a moment. Sometimes, HPs/IEMs require a large amount of current suddenly. Then an amplifier with more "reserved" capacity can handle such a situation better. BTW, this kind of capacity is not properly reflected in the wattage measure. When I said Hugo 2 is more powerful than AK70Mk2, I did not mean loudness or headroom but drivability of various cans.

 

[Giraku]

Yeah. I think for the amp section Hugo 2 is clearly much powerful. However in terms of detail, depth of the sound. What do you think AK70 MKII compare to Hugo 2? Will dual dac/amp setup benefit?

Hugo 2 does everything noticeably better than AK70Mk2, including details and depth of the sound. As I said, SP1000 is the only AK DAP that can compete against Hugo 2 in terms of the sound quality.

 

[Mython]

(This is not specifically referring to the above discussion).


I just did a thread-search and couldn't find anything about output impedance, so, for others who might do the same search, this is from the A&K website:

Balanced out 2.5mm (3 Ω)
Single-Ended 3.5mm (1.5 Ω)

Disappointing that it isn't lower, after so many DAP releases (more than 10 AK DAPs ago, we witnessed the original AK100 having a less-than-ideal output impedance, with iRiver denying it would be an issue, but, iirc, it did prove to be an issue, for some customers...), but I suppose the single-ended 1.5 Ω isn't insanely high. Might begin to be an issue with very low impedance CIEMs, though (EE Zeus, perhaps?) - anyone able to check this, with a very low impedance CIEM, please?

Any lacking bass? Any poorly-controlled treble, etc.?

I'm a CIEM fan, so this is a serious deciding factor for me, when considering purchasing a DAP, having experienced how surprisingly detrimental a high OI can be to the sound signature of low impedance multi-BA CIEMs.


Cheers.

 

[tommy1st]

Hugo 2 does everything noticeably better than AK70Mk2, including details and depth of the sound. As I said, SP1000 is the only AK DAP that can compete against Hugo 2 in terms of the sound quality.

Thanks for explaination! I feel like I will be enjoy SP1000 a lot after I heard AK70 MKII. Since my main drivers now are iems. SP1000 will be a much better choice. However the price is way too much for me now. I think if they come down to 1000-2000 range will be more reasonable. And just for future-proof, in case of I'm go back to headphones, SP1000 will drive normal headphones fine? I used to have LCD-2, HE500.

 

[Stevemitchell]

It's not that simple. HPs/IEMs impedance is quite variable depending on the sound it's playing at a moment. Sometimes, HPs/IEMs require a large amount of current suddenly. Then an amplifier with more "reserved" capacity can handle such a situation better. BTW, this kind of capacity is not properly reflected in the wattage measure. When I said Hugo 2 is more powerful than AK70Mk2, I did not mean loudness or headroom but drivability of various cans.

Sure. Impedance is all over the place in the frequency spectrum, affecting actual power delivered. That's why I chose 32 ohms as just a reference. Hugo publishes actual power-out @ more than one impedance, where A&K just posts Vrms bal-out. In this case, 4V.

 

[Giraku]

Thanks for explaination! I feel like I will be enjoy SP1000 a lot after I heard AK70 MKII. Since my main drivers now are iems. SP1000 will be a much better choice. However the price is way too much for me now. I think if they come down to 1000-2000 range will be more reasonable. And just for future-proof, in case of I'm go back to headphones, SP1000 will drive normal headphones fine? I used to have LCD-2, HE500.

I don't have LCD2 or HE500, so I don't know about them. But I tried HE1000V2, HD800S, Utopia, and various Ultrasone Edition HPs. SP1000 was not powerful enough to drive HE1000V2 and HD800S. But for others including Utopia, it had no problem driving.

 

[Giraku]

Sure. Impedance is all over the place in the frequency spectrum, affecting actual power delivered. That's why I chose 32 ohms as just a reference. Hugo publishes actual power-out @ more than one impedance, where A&K just posts Vrms bal-out. In this case, 4V.

I just wanted to point out that the number at 32 ohms does not tell full stories. For various amps, even if the output is the same at one impedance, the overall output function varies a lot.

This graph shows that Mojo is superior in the high impedance but very similar to the others in lower impedance.

With this graph, Kann regular output, line out, and AK300 shares similar output in high impedance, while they are different in lower impedance.

Anyway, judging from this graph, AK70 performs very similar to other AK DAPs including the TOTL ones. AK70Mk2 is supposedly even more powerful than AK70 but cannot touch the Kann.
At the same time, Hugo 2 is more powerful than Mojo, which is more powerful than Kann on the top graph. Therefore, I would say Hugo 2 is clearly more powerful than AK70Mk2.

BTW, all these graphs are copied from Sandal Audio website, one of very popular Japanese HiFi sites:
http://sandalaudio.blogspot.com

 

[Stevemitchell]

Good info. I had no idea that the Hugo2 ran $2,400. It should be at the top for that price. I thought I was spending crazily on not only my Noble IEMs, but on my new DAPs as well.
It's nice to see the range of my insanity can be heaved sooo much further.