[Paul Mohr]

I have a question about what would be the best way to set up my Asgard 3 with my sundara headphones. There are 3 ways I can go about it and I am curious what people think would be the best option.

For starters I am using my computer hooked up to a Modi 3+ via usb and I am using a seperate usb cable hooked up to the power usb port. It is fed by a usb power out connection on my UPS. I mainly use Tidal with a master quality subscription for music.

These are the options I tried:

High gain mode with the volume knob at the 10 oclock position which gives me around 73 db output with a -10 db pink noise signal

Or I can run it in low gain mode and turn the knob to around the 2:30 position. This also gives me 73 db with a -10 pink noise signal

This is a touch louder than I need it on some music but not too low for more quiet stuff. And if I need to turn it down I can use the volume control in the tidal app.

Or the third option is to just put the knob at the 12:00 position which is plenty loud enough for anything I would want and just control the volume in the tidal app.

I realize there is a 4th option of disabling volume control in tidal and the computer and forcing it to be controlled by my amp. Which is probably the "best" way. However my amp is about 7 or 8 feet away from me with the rest of my audio gear not on a desk near me. And since it doesn't have a remote, nor does my dac I would have to keep getting up and down to change the volume if needed. I'm lazy, I admit it lol.

Are any of these better from a sonic perspective. Or could I be running the amp too hard in low gain mode with it cranked almost all the way up? And is there anything wrong with just putting the knob at 12:00 and using the computer or app to control the volume? I honestly can't tell a difference either way but just because I can't tell doesn't mean one couldn't be better or worse. Maybe I just have crappy hearing lol. Or maybe one is better for the amp or gives me more headroom or something.

The sundara's are 37 ohms and 94 db sensitivity in case someone isn't familiar with them. Not sure if that is rated in mw or voltage though.

I also have a question about Tidal if anyone uses it. In the menu for MQA pass through there is a toggle switch to turn it on and off. The wording is odd to me and the documentation for Tidal isn't all that great in my opinion. My dac does not have MQA, nor from what I can gather does it really make any difference for music. Do I want that switch to be blue or grey? I tried it both ways and honestly I can't tell a difference either way. Or I could just disable Master Quality in the options and set it to Hi Fi instead.

Any opinions or advice would be greatly appreciated.

Oh and just for giggles I checked the voltage coming out of the Modi and the specs say max 2 volts but when I tested it with a fluke meter I get around 1.8 volts with a 1K signal at 0 db. Does that just mean my computer isn't putting out a full signal to it or is 1.8 volts close enough that it doesn't matter. Or I don't know what I am doing and shouldn't be checking things like this lol.

 

[dbf909]

You have a number of well thought thru options here. I'm not sure that I can give you the "Best" way but I will be happy to give you my opinion(s)...

I have a quite a bit of Schiit gear and have been experimenting with very similar scenarios to those that you describe above. With the Sundara and all of my amps that have gain switches (Jotunhiem, Jotunheim2, Asgard3) I prefer to run the amps in high gain. On the Jots running a balanced cable this results in a fairly low setting on the volume control - as low as 9:00-9:30 for some "hot" recordings. However, I haven't had any issues with channel balance at those low settings. To me the amps just seem a slight bit more dynamic and lively on high gain so that is the way I like to run them.

On the odd occasion that I use an IEM rather than the Sundara, I do switch to low gain so that I can have a bit more even curve for the volume - I can adjust a bit more precisely.

There is no harm to the amp in running them either way - it doesn't push the amp harder at low gain with the volume knob up higher. The resulting volume/output power is all that matters to the amp and the Asgard has tons of headroom with the Sundara.

With regard to using the amp volume vs the source (Tidal/computer in your case), technically you are better off running max volume at the computer and adjusting at the amp. Why? The primary reason is that you maximize the signal to noise ratio of the signal through the DAC and the amp. The idea is that external noise can potentially be introduced from many places and the analog sections of the DAC and the preamp inherently generate noise at a fixed level (the D to A and filter circuits do too) and you want to make the signal (music) as large as possible without clipping so that the ratio of signal to the noise is maximized through the entire circuit. This is especially important at the input stages of the circuits before significant gain is applied because both the signal presented there AND the noise there are amplified significantly even before the power/output stage.

In addition - and this is just my opinion/preference - any DSP or processing done in the digital domain (including volume) is changing the digital data before it is sent to the DAC/filter for conversion to analog. The "purist" in me wants the data sent to the DAC to be "Bit Perfect". In other words, I want the exact music data from the file in whatever resolution and bit rate it was produced to be presented to the DAC. While adjusting the volume at the computer is really just scaling that data, it is still changing every single sample in the file. EQ is doing a whole lot more including phase correction and although some of the digital EQs sound awesome and have amazing capability, I prefer running bit perfect to the DAC - again, my preference.

I currently don't use Tidal (yet?) so I can't help you with those settings questions. I do source FLAC files from a PC and a tablet to my various systems via coax and/or USB and strive to set them up for bit perfect output.

I am fortunate though to not have the distance contraints in most of my setups that you do - I am within easy reach of the volume knob on the amp (and Loki/Lokius EQ tone knobs as well). So most of my systems are setup with the source volume maximized (Foobar200) or disabled (USB Audio Player), no EQ or DSP (bit perfect mode enabled).

In your case, If I really had to adjust volume at the source, I would consider finding a volume setting on the Asgard where you can use the top 25% or so of the volume control on your source. In other words, I would try to never have to turn the volume on your computer/Tidal below about 75% of max - to keep the Signal to Noise ratio as high as possible.

 

[Paul Mohr]

Thank you for your response and well explained opinions/advice. Its kind of what I figured. Glad to know I can't damage the amp though either why I decide to do it. I will most likely be moving soon so maybe when I set it all back up again I will find a way to put the headphone amp closer to where I sit. I suppose I could move the headphone system closer to me it would just involve getting some longer usb cables and a longer AC power cord or something. Or I could run it off a laptop or tablet or something instead of my main computer. I have a cheap laptop I never use anyway.

I get what you are saying with using the computer or tidal as the volume control. And it does have an option in the app to force control to the amp and bypass all volume controls in the app or the computer. I tried it both ways and I really couldn't tell a difference so I went with what was more convenient for me. I do like your idea of setting the volume control of the amp as close to where I think I need it and only using the computer to control the volume if I have to by a small amount. Which is kind of how it works out with the 10:00 position. There is also an option in tidal to level match all tracks or something like that. I don't trust that option though because I don't want it mucking with the sound so I don't use it.

I was also experimenting with EQ using APO and Peace but it didn't impress me much so I uninstalled it all so it wasn't in the chain anymore. I am considering getting a Loki or Lokius at some point though. I almost got the loki when I got the amp and dac but all they had was black and I wanted all silver lol. The finish and build on this stuff for the price is pretty impressive I must admit. They probably could have shoved this all into black plastic boxes and asked the same price, but they didn't.

Again, thank you for taking the time to respond and for the advice. You have given me some things to think about. Have a good evening.

 

[dbf909]

No problem. At the end of the day I have to balance the pursuit of perfection with enjoyment of the results. And convenience is and should be a big factor in the enjoyment. Many folks actually enjoy the pursuit more than the result itself and it is easy to get there in any hobby or avocation - nothing wrong with that, I've spent a lot of time there. I see it in the audio hobby as well as guitars/amps, photography, cars, amateur radio, R/C modelling, golf and dozens of other things many of which I have had the fortune to pursue separate from my day-job...

That said, another rabbit-hole that I've entered and emerged recently that is related to the notion of "bit perfect" with regard to using USB is "Exclusive Mode". In your case, I've read that the Tidal app will use this mode inherently but it is something that you may want to check somewhere in your settings. The idea with this is that Windows and Android both make the USB port(s) available to multiple applications and those apps can actually share the same port at the same time. But in order to allow for this sharing, the Windows and Android port driver software must re-sample the data presented by those apps to a "standard" format - 48KHz 16bit in most cases.

Therefore when resampled, the data presented to the external DAC is no longer "Bit Perfect" as it has been converted into a format that either has more or less samples and data than the original file. In other words, if the file was originally a HiRez file in 96KHz 24bit format, the software would throw away every other sample and 1/3 of the bits in each of the remaining samples. If the original file was from a CD at 44.1KHz 16bit, It would have to add some number of samples to get it to 48KHz and this is not nearly as straightforward mathematically or practically. Considering the complexity of all of the cases in re-sampling, it is pretty amazing to me that the result still sounds great but again the "purist" in me wants the actual file to be presented to the DAC in its original format.

So enter "Exclusive Mode". Tidal (as I've read) and many other players (the latest version of Foobar2000 and USB Audio Player are what I use now) have the ability to basically seize control of the USB port from Windows (actually they ask for it and Windows/Android grants it). This essentially bypasses the part of the Windows/Android driver software that manages the sharing and allows the app to present data in whatever format it wishes to the USB port. This was a noticeable improvement for me especially when playing HiRez files from my tablet.

So even if you use the volume control and EQ at the source in the digital domain which will scale/transform the data but not resample it, it is worthwhile to verify that Tidal (or any other player app) is set to exclusive mode in order to ensure that the full resolution of data is being sent to the DAC and that it is not re-sampled automatically by the computer's OS. If you are paying for and using Tidal for HiRez content, you definitely want the full resolution of the content you are streaming to make it to the DAC. Again, my opinion here driven by a pursuit of perfection...

Enjoy both the pursuit and the results...

 

[Paul Mohr]

Yes tidal offeres you a few different ways you can use it, if you are using the app. You can also use tidal directly from a web browser if you wish. The app offeres more features though. You can either use it like a normal media player set it to just output to the default windows device. Which is whatever you select down at the bottom where your speaker icon is. Most programs will tell you do use this option during set up because it is easier and less confusing for most people. Windows will often detect if you plug in a new source or turn one on and automatically switch to it. And for most normal people they don't have more than a few sound output devices installed so that does make sense. When using tidal in this mode you can change the volume either using the app or your windows volume control.

Then you have the option to force the output. Basically telling it to only output sound on that device. If you do this you can have windows set to whatever you want where that little speaker icon is. Tidal will still route the sound to the specific device you chose. So my windows output might be set to realtek digital (which is my receiver in my case) but if I choose Modi 3+ in tidal that is the device it will output to. And I can control the volume in the tidal app. IF I set my windows output to Modi 3+ as well then I can also control the volume with it as well. Pretty much all media, streaming and recording software will give this option. You just have to choose it in the set up menu. Tidal makes it easier for you by letting click on an icon that pulls up a menu to let you choose. Audacity, reaper, obs and most daws all offer this as an option really.

Then it has exclusive mode which will bypass the windows volume control even if you have it set to the same source. You can only control the volume via the tidal app. You can mute the sound with windows though. Turning the volume slider in windows up and down will do nothing unless you turn it all the way down then it mutes it. And this feature only works with Hi Fi and Master tracks. If they are less than that then for whatever reason it reverts to how it would normally work. Why I don't know, seems kind of like a dumb option.

Then it has an option to "force volume". When select this it uses exclusive mode and disables the volume control in both windows and the Tidal app. It just sends a full vu signal to whatever device you chose and you have to control the volume with that device manually.

And then there options for volume leveling or normalization or whatever and MQA software decoding disabling and all that stuff. None of really seemed to do much that I could tell. I played with all of them and I never heard a difference. I couldn't even see a difference with the volume leveling thing when I ran it through a vu meter. Soft tracks were still the same level as before as were the louder ones.

And the "Master Quality" tracks are not really anything all that special either. Some of them might sound a bit better, most sound the same and some sound worse. For example "seven years" by Natalie Merchant on the Tigerlilly album. On the master quality version in tidal it sounds horrid. In some parts you can bleed through from another track. Kind of like the old cassette players did when they got worn out. And in some other parts her voice actually distorts a little. I plugged a dvd/cd player into my dac via coax and played the cd which I happen to own and that track was perfect on the cd, no issues at all. Then I compared a lot the cds I own to the tidal versions and really couldn't tell a difference on most of them. Honestly if it wasn't for the fact that Tidal offers a military discount I wouldn't even use the premium version, or tidal at all for that matter. Because I am a veteran I think my premium account is like 10 or 11 bucks a month.

The issue I am having with the volume control is the fact that studios simply don't have any set standards for volume. Some tracks very widely in volume. I put them througha vu meter and some softer tracks will hover around -6 db, other tracks will be at around -0 db or so and others yet will peak the meter meaning they are pushing into the postive db realm. If I were making a recording or setting up my microphone I would call that clipping. And some of the stuff that is softer is stuff you wouldn't expect to be. Like Kansas, an 80's rock band. You would think that would be recorded fairly loud, not at -6db. Then you go something like Time in a Bottle and its 0 db lol.

 

[dbf909]

Fascinating. It sounds like they did a pretty thorough design on the Tidal app - providing pretty much all of the flexibility that most folks of various technical capacity would want.

Auto-leveling and normalization is quite a challenge though. I've found multiple copies of the same title CDs that were remastered at different times that play a drastically different volumes too. There really seems to be no standardization over the long term at all. Many of the titles that came out or were remastered in the late 90's through about 2021 during the "loudness wars" period are so compressed and mastered up there at clipping or even above. I've tried the similar normalization function on Foobar2000 with less than desirable results too. It is a difficult problem to deal with.

That is a shame though that some of the "Master Quality" tracks are problematic like you describe. That sounds clearly defective. I wouldn't expect them to all be significantly and noticeably better than CDs but definitely not worse. I suppose that in some cases they actually go back to the original master recordings to create these but I'm sure in some cases they might take the easy way out and just upsample a CD but it is disappointing to hear that in some cases they manage to make them worse. Could they have actually digitized an old master tape with bleed-through?

 

[Ojntoast]

Not going to make a long post here. If you have a knob, you should use the knob. This way you don't run into windows doing any nonsense before it gets to the Modi. Any option to move the amp closer?

 

[Paul Mohr]

Not going to make a long post here. If you have a knob, you should use the knob. This way you don't run into windows doing any nonsense before it gets to the Modi. Any option to move the amp closer?

Maybe when I move and re set the whole system up over again. Right now I really don't have the room near me to put and it would be a wiring PIA. My computer is with the rest of my audio/video equipment 8 feet away from me. I don't have a conventional computer set up, like a computer desk. My computer is part of my home theater set up and I sit in my regular chair and use a wireless keyboard and track ball. I was using my LG C-9 oled tv for my computer monitor but I started noticing image retention and panicked so I went out and got a dedicated monitor. I just put on a little stand with wheels and shove it out of the way when I want to watch a movie or netflix or something on the big screen.

Right now I am in a cramped and crowded attic that is also used for storage. So my options are limited. With all my junk, the tv, gear, mic set up and chair there is barely room to walk around lol. For the last 5 years or so I was taking care of my mother who had dementia so I moved into the attic of her house. Towards the end there she couldn't be left alone and I had secure all the doors and block off most of the house. She passed away in July so I will probably move to an apartment so my brother and I can sell the house and split the money. Ideally when I move I would like to have two set ups, one for surround sound movie watching and another for dedicated two channel speakers and headphone set up. Will depend on the size of the apartment I end up in I guess. And I could just run it off a laptop or tablet or something instead of my desktop. I will figure something out. Honeslty I have more important things to worry about at the moment. I think I am just using this as an excuse or a distraction from doing the hard things I should be worrying about.

Its not that it sounds bad or anything. Running it the way I am I don't hear noise or difference in audio quality. I tried it direct just to compare. And I have a dvd/cd player hooked up to it too which has nothing to do with the computer. I have to control that manually with the amp. It sounds just as good.

And on the upside running it off the computer let me hook up my bass shaker today without having to order some 1/4 Y adapter and stuff. Headpones with a transducer mounted to the chair is kind of cool. Only problem is the amp I had when I used them for my home theater set is too powerful lol. I might have to hook the other transducer up to it just so I can double the impedance and half the amplifier power.