Are there actually any Scientists in the Sound SCIENCE forum?????/
Sep 25, 2009 at 9:12 PM Thread Starter Post #1 of 79
SmellyGas

SmellyGas

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I haven't seen any. I'm just curious. Are there actually any SCIENTISTS or RESEARCHERS here that:

a) hold either a Ph.D. in a natural science discipline (i.e. NOT engineering and NOT in an applied science) or an M.D.

- AND -

b) regularly design or interpret scientific experiments and/or papers designed to test hypotheses and draw conclusions

- AND -

c) are personally comfortable with statistical analysis

???

If so, what do you think about the published papers and experiments related to blinded, controlled listening tests of amps/cables/dac's?

(My prediction is zero people will meet a, b, and c, but there will be a lot of hateful and not-terribly-useful replies).
 
Sep 25, 2009 at 9:26 PM Post #3 of 79
Quote:

Originally Posted by SmellyGas /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I haven't seen any. I'm just curious. Are there actually any SCIENTISTS or RESEARCHERS here that:

a) hold either a Ph.D. in a natural science discipline (i.e. NOT engineering and NOT in an applied science) or an M.D.

- AND -

b) regularly design or interpret scientific experiments and/or papers designed to test hypotheses and draw conclusions

- AND -

c) are personally comfortable with statistical analysis

???

If so, what do you think about the published papers and experiments related to blinded, controlled listening tests of amps/cables/dac's?

(My prediction is zero people will meet a, b, and c, but there will be a lot of hateful and not-terribly-useful replies).


I agre .. LoL .. what ever you try to say .. LoL !
 
Sep 25, 2009 at 9:29 PM Post #4 of 79
Dr Stupid here, what's your question?

dr_stupid-thumb.jpg
 
Sep 25, 2009 at 9:49 PM Post #6 of 79
Quote:

Originally Posted by 883dave /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Are you?


yes

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gundogan /img/forum/go_quote.gif
If there're any people here with experience and/or degrees in this field of science.


NO, please see A, B, and C above, specifically.
 
Sep 25, 2009 at 9:54 PM Post #7 of 79
Quote:

Originally Posted by SmellyGas /img/forum/go_quote.gif
If so, what do you think about the published papers and experiments related to blinded, controlled listening tests of amps/cables/dac's?


I can answer only that one !

YES, i trust blind tests more then any other !
 
Sep 25, 2009 at 10:00 PM Post #8 of 79
Quote:

Originally Posted by iriverdude /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Dr Stupid here, what's your question?


Hello, there. To you, and anyone else who happens to meet a/b/c above and is interested, what are your thoughts with regard to the questions:

1) Do differences among cables, DAC's, and loudspeaker amps result in LARGE, EASILY AUDIBLE differences in sound reproduction? (which is basically a common claim that people make)

2) How valid/sound are the existing studies that use blind listening A/B methodologies?

Here are some papers to start:
http://www.nousaine.com/pdfs/To%20Tweak%20or%20Not.pdf
http://www.nousaine.com/pdfs/Wired%20Wisdom.pdf
http://www.bruce.coppola.name/audio/Amp_Sound.pdf

Thanks.
 
Sep 25, 2009 at 11:14 PM Post #11 of 79
this thread is insulting to the plethora of research biologists and chemists, including personal friends of mine, that hold masters degrees
wink.gif



another pretentious aspect to this thread: what makes a natural scientist any better at sound science than either 1) an engineer, or 2) a researcher in the social sciences (such as psychology), who may have better insight into these subjects than an ecologist?
 
Sep 25, 2009 at 11:28 PM Post #12 of 79
This isn't one of those "put-down" threads, is it?

Smellygas, I don't see your point. If you like it better, it IS better (for you). If you like the way silver cables color the sound over copper, use them! I don't see the value of taking the time to control variables and spend money on large-sample-size research if your personal preference is all that matters in the end (and I believe it is all that matters). I can see sending out a "help me decide" thread if you figure you'd like a few opinions to help give you some options to try, but I don't see what you would gain by knowing whether one sample can hear a difference between equipment. When it's all said and done, who cares?

PS: my background is in science (I'm finishing dental school) and I feel very comfortable discussing stats (as long as we talking basic analysis and not anything too crazy), but I still don't see the point...why do you care?
 
Sep 25, 2009 at 11:47 PM Post #13 of 79
Quote:

Originally Posted by El_Doug /img/forum/go_quote.gif
this thread is insulting to the plethora of research biologists and chemists, including personal friends of mine, that hold masters degrees
wink.gif



It's also insulting to college students who just finished their upper division stats, insulting to high school kids who just learned what the scientific method was in their biology class, etc.

Quote:

another pretentious aspect to this thread: what makes a natural scientist any better at sound science than either 1) an engineer, or 2) a researcher in the social sciences (such as psychology), who may have better insight into these subjects than an ecologist?


1) Simple. Most engineers do "engineering," which is an applied science, and very little is applicable to human subject experimental design. Even in the Journal of the Audio Engineering Society, some of the PUBLISHED work was SO statistically poor, that a statistician had to submit a paper on HOW to do proper statistics on A/B testing (there were actuall TWO).

2) Oh, a psychologist would be okay. Other social science, such as history, anthropology, economics, etc. ...not so much.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Sennshead /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Smellygas, I don't see your point. If you like it better, it IS better (for you). If you like the way silver cables color the sound over copper, use them! I don't see the value of taking the time to control variables and spend money on large-sample-size research if your personal preference is all that matters in the end (and I believe it is all that matters).


You're answering a different question, and that is, "Is it okay for people to spend THEIR money on WHATEVER they want for WHATEVER reason?" And the answer is YES. But that is neither here nor there.

Quote:

I can see sending out a "help me decide" thread if you figure you'd like a few opinions to help give you some options to try, but I don't see what you would gain by knowing whether one sample can hear a difference between equipment. When it's all said and done, who cares?


If you don't care, that's fine. But some people would like to know whether cables/amps/dac's make LARGE AUDIBLE differences in sound - because if they DO, they will spend a lot of money on them, and if they DON'T, they will spend very little.
 
Sep 26, 2009 at 12:01 AM Post #14 of 79
Quote:

Originally Posted by SmellyGas /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Hello, there. To you, and anyone else who happens to meet a/b/c above and is interested, what are your thoughts with regard to the questions:

1) Do differences among cables, DAC's, and loudspeaker amps result in LARGE, EASILY AUDIBLE differences in sound reproduction? (which is basically a common claim that people make)

2) How valid/sound are the existing studies that use blind listening A/B methodologies?

Here are some papers to start:
http://www.nousaine.com/pdfs/To%20Tweak%20or%20Not.pdf
http://www.nousaine.com/pdfs/Wired%20Wisdom.pdf
http://www.bruce.coppola.name/audio/Amp_Sound.pdf

Thanks.


I would not lump these 3 product categories into the same discussion. IMO, cables have the least measurable and audible differences of the 3.
 
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