[Deleeh]

Great contribution,

I started with dynamic headphones and just under a year started listening with the Lcd2c which revealed completely different ways of listening to me.
And eight months later, the Aeon R/T closed, which also revealed something else.

And all in all, my overall listening impressions for the whole year were only planar headphones and the Fostex headphones hardly got any playing time.

I love the body, stage, accuracy and depth of planar headphones when the drive is right.
I have not had such good experiences with the Aeon on a tube amplifier.
For me, I tested both headphones on 3 different amps and found that the hybrid amp performed best compared to the solid state and tube amps.

The Little Dot 1+ is still a good amp despite its age and I recently got my hands on a set of rare LM Ecrisson We 403B which are excellent.

In the end, after comparing the hybrid amp market, there was nothing better for me than the Little Dot 1+, so I had one made which is currently in the final stages.
And then I think new personal perspectives will open up where I think even the planar headphones can go to their limits.
Without distorting, power output will have problems.
That is always the be-all and end-all of such a headphone amplifier.

And tube amplifiers also work with planar headphones, but they have to be distortion-free, especially in the lower ohm range, and have enough power to drive them.
Then, from a personal point of view, these types are also superior to the SS amplifier.

There are good SS amplifiers that are just as symbiotic with planar headphones.
But also with dynamic headphones with all 3 types of amplifiers, that has to be said.

To be honest, I have only roughly dealt with the technical side of planar headphones, a task I am happy to leave to others who are more experienced.

 

[Steven31]

Thank you all for your comments. Your experience, opinions and insight is valued and appreciated, and will no doubt save me money. Thank you

 

[Deolum]

I never heard that planars are considered superiour to dynamic drivers. All of the drivers have different strengths.

Planars are said to have superiour bass and macrodynamics.

Dynamic drivers have a more natural timbre.

Electrostats are the best in speed and microdynamics.

Overall all three drivers are pretty equal and the best of each kind (Utopia, Susvara, Phi TC, SR007, SR009 etc.) play around the same league.

TOTL estat plus amp? $10k (Amp is $7k+).

An open box Susvara (planar) and used Rag 1 is about 4.6k. Gives about 97.8% of above.

Nah. First there is no linear improvement. It's either you like setup a) or b) more. You can't just say this one or this one is better.

Second a used Carbon costs around 2,5k. With that you can be sure that you have the best possible estat amp in the world unless you want to go for a BHSE for 5k. If you look in the Susvara thread people are still debating whether the 20k or the 30k amp sounds better. I think a totl estat setup is slightly less expensive than a Susvara setup.

 

[tjlindle]

Interesting. I find the treble purity drifting down to male voices in elite estats and ribbons stand apart and well above other technologies (I have not spent enough time with the HEDD to be sure if it is possibly also a member of that club) - that includes the Utopia (overrated) and 800S and a pile of planars including the Susvara (pretty close but not there).

Problem is they are expensive and require insanely expensive amps. The RAAL dealer around here says the Rag 1 is the absolute lowest quality amp to use. Sadly those elite cans do not produce a lot of dynamics and push into the lower bass. Like the HD-600 they are fast, clean, and tonally correct under 90 Hz, but like the 600 lacking iron in the boots. Unlike the 600 they are cleaner and less smudged in the 100-200 Hz range with rollicking bass.

Don't get me wrong there are a lot of sound qualities inherent to 'stats that are awesome and distinctive compared to planars/dynamics - but in the sense of this thread asking "is one of these technologies fundamentally superior to another" I think that that's sort of an untenable position given how subjective we are as listeners.

For instance, going back to 'stats - if two equally skilled engineering teams made a TOTL 'stat and TOTL planar respectively, I think you could certainly identify their strengths and weaknesses in relation to one another (all things being equal, 'stat would likely have better transients and clarity, planar likely thicker sound with more engaging bass) but it's certainly not enough to say strictly "oh the 'stat is fundamentally superior to the planar by virtue of being a 'stat." If nothing else, purely because as listeners we value different things and there is no situation where any tech is just a 100% objective upgrade over another tech in every possible way.

Full disclosure though, I have not heard an absolute TOTL 'stat setup (most I've heard is 009 with KGSSHV, most I've owned personally is L700 with 353x) and I've never heard ribbon tech at all a la the SR1a.

Second a used Carbon costs around 2,5k.

Is this a legit ballpark for used Carbon? Because if so that's actually in my budget range

 

[bagwell359]

Nah. First there is no linear improvement. It's either you like setup a) or b) more. You can't just say this one or this one is better.

I was speaking for myself. The Voce w the HFM Jr is my preference. Used if you can find the amp is $6k for both. But i'd want a new Voce so make it $7k. NIB Susvara $3.9k plus used Rag 1 ($850) is less for the pair but IMO the sound isn't as good. It's more like 93% of the sound. Big win for the Rag is its a very good speaker amp.

Personally I don't like the Utopia at all that 5k rise can kill.kill.

BHSE is nice. Carbons OK.

 

[bagwell359]

Don't get me wrong there are a lot of sound qualities inherent to 'stats that are awesome and distinctive compared to planars/dynamics - but in the sense of this thread asking "is one of these technologies fundamentally superior to another" I think that that's sort of an untenable position given how subjective we are as listeners.

For instance, going back to 'stats - if two equally skilled engineering teams made a TOTL 'stat and TOTL planar respectively, I think you could certainly identify their strengths and weaknesses in relation to one another (all things being equal, 'stat would likely have better transients and clarity, planar likely thicker sound with more engaging bass) but it's certainly not enough to say strictly "oh the 'stat is fundamentally superior to the planar by virtue of being a 'stat." If nothing else, purely because as listeners we value different things and there is no situation where any tech is just a 100% objective upgrade over another tech in every possible way.

Full disclosure though, I have not heard an absolute TOTL 'stat setup (most I've heard is 009 with KGSSHV, most I've owned personally is L700 with 353x) and I've never heard ribbon tech at all a la the SR1a.

Is this a legit ballpark for used Carbon? Because if so that's actually in my budget range

They made a ton. Some of them quite far from SoTA, so prices vary.

 

[bagwell359]

One interesting thing about planars is that many are nearly flat from 20-1000k. A negative trait is many ring between 2.5k and 10k. In my experience they take modding and EQ to max out.

Differences make it interesting.

 

[Mink]

In my narrow experience, I haven't heard that many planars (neither have I heard many headphones that are priced over 1000 USD), I do feel that my Avantone Planars have the best overall sound in a technical sense. Resolution, texture, detail, instrument separation and imaging are a nod better than that of all my similar priced dynamic headphones. Just a nod better, in the end I don't miss much or anything at all when I switch to a dynamic pair, for me it is the complete sound picture and character, the whole sum what makes a pair enjoyable, not the objective technicalities. I like it when I hear details I never heard or when I get a better idea how an album is mixed and mastered, but it is not that important to me. The moment when I am not aware of the equipment and headphones, when I'm only surrounded by music is what counts for me. Both planar and dynamic headphones can achieve this.

 

[Infoseeker]

I was speaking for myself. The Voce w the HFM Jr is my preference. Used if you can find the amp is $6k for both. But i'd want a new Voce so make it $7k. NIB Susvara $3.9k plus used Rag 1 ($850) is less for the pair but IMO the sound isn't as good. It's more like 93% of the sound. Big win for the Rag is its a very good speaker amp.

Personally I don't like the Utopia at all that 5k rise can kill.kill.

BHSE is nice. Carbons OK.

If you are not into EQ , you could try using a SolderDude passive filter circuit (you simple connect it as an extension adapter to your cable) and use the Utopia with any source and get less of that 5/6kHz rise.

Works great for me. Hasn't had any unintended consequences like make the presentation sterile sounding.

Let's me use the Utopia directly with my Chord Hugo 2 without EQ. (Also don't need to use my desktop amp either to compensate for the Utopia). [Hugo 2 doesn't have a presentation that compensates for such a 5khz/6khz rise.]

Also got one made for my hd800S, in the same way it works better with my Hugo2 in terms of its 5/6kHz rise.


(Also I would like to warn people to avoid buying a used Susvara due to Hifiman QC, unless it got a transferrable warranty)

 

[bagwell359]

If you are not into EQ , you could try using a SolderDude passive filter circuit (you simple connect it as an extension adapter to your cable) and use the Utopia with any source and get less of that 5/6kHz rise.

I am into EQ. Heard it in a killer system w no EQ.

Works great for me. Hasn't had any unintended consequences like make the presentation sterile sounding.

Never used soldedude but it's a fine concept I have used when adjusting speaker crossovers.

Let's me use the Utopia directly with my Chord Hugo 2 without EQ. (Also don't need to use my desktop amp either to compensate for the Utopia). [Hugo 2 doesn't have a presentation that compensates for such a 5khz/6khz rise.]

Also got one made for my hd800S, in the same way it works better with my Hugo2 in terms of its 5/6kHz rise.


(Also I would like to warn people to avoid buying a used Susvara due to Hifiman QC, unless it got a transferrable warranty)

I have/had 7 different HFM models that are collectively 35 years old with one issue - bad headband.

There are few reports of issues with Susvara I have seen and I mentioned NIB which do carry full warranties.

You have offered good advice here. Thanks.

 

[asarkhentamentiu]

Gotta second the qc bit. They make it out to be a lot worse than it is. I don’t have extensive experience but my ananda even survived a little 3ft spill. Def no real complaints… it’s got a little creaking around it but put them on and forget it.

 

[Infoseeker]

Gotta second the qc bit. They make it out to be a lot worse than it is. I don’t have extensive experience but my ananda even survived a little 3ft spill. Def no real complaints… it’s got a little creaking around it but put them on and forget it.

The problem with buying a used Hifiman and the QC. You don't know if the current owner is selling them because they are simply moving on.

Or they unawaringly feel something is off due to a QC issue they again innocently unaware of. And feel they want to move on to something better.

Like due to an uncanny valley feeling they get by a some L/R imbalance. But they haven't noticed it.

 

[bagwell359]

The problem with buying a used Hifiman and the QC. You don't know if the current owner is selling them because they are simply moving on.

Or they unawaringly feel something is off due to a QC issue they again innocently unaware of. And feel they want to move on to something better.

Like due to an uncanny valley feeling they get by a some L/R imbalance. But they haven't noticed it.

I wouldn't point at any one vendor for Q/C or ascribe motivation to any seller.

It is all after all: buyer beware unless you know the person.

My problem with HFM is the very little money and attention they pay to items outside of the drivers.

 

[Luckyleo]

So i've been doing some research recently on the structure and fundamental operating principles of planar magnetic headphone drivers, and comparing this information to my understanding of how dynamic-type drivers operate, and i'm left feeling slightly confused, as to whether planar magnetic drivers are actually the superior drivers, or if they are seriously flawed and imperfect. On paper (objectively) I have every reason to believe that planar magnetic drivers offer a technically superior performance, due to the ultra thin membrane suspended between magnets in a permanent electrostatic state, creating uniform soundwaves which (subjectively) gives planar magnetic headphones their most recognisable unique traits (a soundstage presentation comparable to loudspeakers, a linear frequency response, ultra realistic 3 dimensional positional audio, imaging and depth, phenomenal detail extraction and clarity of "background" noises in recordings, musicality) but I recently read a post (in a thread here on Head Fi) by someone who is clearly an expert in the field of driver technology and design, who seems to have an expert understanding of planar magnetic drivers, and what he said about planars has thrown my beliefs about their supposed superiority over dynamic drivers, up in the air. Made me question all I knew or at least all I thought I knew about them. What he said is perfectly legitimate and actually a very good reason to doubt planar magnetic drivers superiority over dynamic one's. He focused on the magnets on a planar magnetic driver and why - due to their position and the nature of the overall rectangular design, they may be obstructive to the soundwaves emitted by the membrane, he also explained how the intrinsic nature of the drivers makes it harder to eliminate distortion. After reading this I am not sure planar magnetic headphones are all they are made out to be. I am confused, they sound so good yet how am I meant to believe they are superior to dynamic driver headphones, given the above, and if when I hear them, am I just listening to a distorted mess?..with sound waves reaching my ears being a convoluted mess?..
Hmm it doesn't add up! perhaps there is a great deception.

Fostex TH500RP (Planar Magnetic driver)


AKG K702 (dynamic driver)

How to know which is better? My advice is to stop reading about them, and instead simply listen. Let your ears decide. My guess is there are some planars that sound better to YOU than dynamic and vice versa.

 

[Steven31]

How to know which is better? My advice is to stop reading about them, and instead simply listen. Let your ears decide. My guess is there are some planars that sound better to YOU than dynamic and vice versa.

Thanks for this, great advice. It's the audio purist in me that dictates these things. I understand that there are different types of audiophiles, we are a strange breed! I fall into the category of striving for the best...over the years I have learned allot and I will not stop researching and listening until I find what sounds like the best to me. I thought I found it with the AKG K702 but my recent planar purchase (Fostex TH500RP) has forced me to question my long held belief and notion that I would never find another headphone that I would prefer the sound of more, and has made me question whether or not planar magnetic headphones are overall superior or inferior. Welcome to the workings of my mind! this is just me, I question these things. I question everything. It's the scientist in me. Personally, I don't think it is possible to conclude which driver type is better, between planar magnetic and dynamic, on the face of it, if pricing is anything to go buy (pardon the pun), then planar magnetic headphones appear to be superior to dynamic one's as they tend to cost more..but from an objective technical point of view, planars do have some serious and shocking disadvantages over dynamic drivers mostly due to the positioning of the magnets which obstruct some soundwaves and the shape of planar magnetic drivers also presents a problem regarding distortion (the sound waves travelling along the diaphragm and breaking up at certain points). It is confusing to say the least! these are some serious technical disadvantages yet it goes against everything i'm hearing when I compare my TH500RP subjectively to my K702. Why do they sound so good when compared to dynamic and they shouldn't, according to physics?! it's amazing.