[Zanth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nak Man I agree with you, it takes time for me as well to digest such refinements. And if we can agree that high price sources produce subtle improvements, then all there's left to it is really how we value our money.

I'm not saying they only make subtle differences, I'm saying that in many cases the subtleties are only revealed after longer listening sessions. There are some really awesome high-end sources that simply trounce low end stuff, and it doesn't take weeks months or years to come to this conclusion.

However, if one is simply listening for some hard picking in some riff, and they get it from player a and b...and a costs 10x b, some may conclude that a is not worth b. But, if someone is listening for proper timbre, proper pace, rhythm and time etc....then if someone is not equipped to listen for this, then they won't think it is worth going with player a that does the above with incredible finesse, while b couldn't even hint at such fine reproduction. Again, it is often in the listener. Some folks can pick this stuff out immediately, some need time to understand it and then can pick it out immediately, others will never catch on.

It's like I mentioned with wine. The bottles I buy are likely akin to maleria infested swap water for the true wine coinnoisseurs. Hey, that's fine by me! I don't want to invest too much money into something I urinate out 30 minutes after enjoying it! I'd rather invest heavily into a hobby with greater returns, greater "repeated" returns. That's me though. If I were a true wine coinnoisseur I would be drinking the good stuff only and knowing what the good stuff was all about.

 

[dshea_32665]

Zanth: nice posts, a lot of wisdom I found myself nodding my head to.

dshea

 

[Salt Peanuts]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zanth It's like I mentioned with wine. The bottles I buy are likely akin to maleria infested swap water for the true wine coinnoisseurs. Hey, that's fine by me! I don't want to invest too much money into something I urinate out 30 minutes after enjoying it!

The best thing I've heard all weekend - well, aside from my headphone system, of course.

 

[edstrelow]

"Edstrelow, correct me if I'm wrong, but did I get it right that you said any a/b comparison is flawed due to human perception issues ? Very interesting ... Would appreciate any good links / reading on that matter. Thanks much." - Nak Man

Human perception issues as well as issues of experimental methodology. One of my points about the misguided use of A/B comparisons, especially using groups is that this is not the only or main procedure used in auditory psychophysics. It has been a few years since I left this field but you would really have to get into an advanced undergraduate or graduate course in human perception to study comparisons of various techniques. The old Harvard psychologist S.S. Stevens had, if I remember correctly, some books out. However they are not specifically directed to audio issues.

 

[GoRedwings19]

I suppose it's difficult to answer if high end sources are worth it. I will have to say yes to the question. I am not going to try and justify my answer. But I will tell you this. Since getting my ML, I average 4 hours a day sleep. I work 12 hour shifts so as soon as I finish I go and listen to my headphone setup via the ML. I sit in a chair listening to music for 5-6 hours straight. Before it was like 2 hours then maybe watch a few dvd's, go out, whatever.

Wait till I get my hands on a marantz cd7 or wadia...

 

[Nak Man]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zanth Again, it is often in the listener. Some folks can pick this stuff out immediately, some need time to understand it and then can pick it out immediately, others will never catch on.

Very glad to see this open minded reply rather than 'lowballing' comments on another person's hearing ability and or audio exposure.

Looking at more recent posts from you, edstrelow, yfei et al, long term listening would most likely be the key to appreciate good sources. This, and the double pronged effect of listeners ability / psychophysics (whew) above led me to believe that majority of audiophiles fell into category (b) above i.e. need time to understand and pick out differences - with (a) being very few select golden ears who can pick out differences immediately - and (c) is for general public who can't hear and don't really care for differences. Despite the many claims, it's kind of difficult for me to believe that majority of audiophiles here can pick up subtle differences rightaway. What do you think ?

Having understood sonic differences we can throw price into the equation and decide whether they're worth it or not, right ? And afterwards we can go back to our regularly scheduled programme...

 

[Welly Wu]

Here is my limited source component history:

1. Panasonic SL-CT570 PCDP
2. NAD C 541i HDCD
3. Denon DVD 2900
4. Pioneer Elite DV-59AVi
5. ModWright Pioneer Elite DV-59AVi

I can say for certain that the improvements were real and it made me want to listen to more music and buy more music frequently. In the end, if a source component doesn't make you want to listen to more music, then it is time to re-think system synergy first and perhaps a component change(s). For me, the purpose of system synergy is to achieve greater musicality. Period.

I lived with each component for several months and I heard these improvements: soundstage depth & width, imaging, clarity, immediacy, detail, dynamics, balance, harmony, pace, rythym, timing, smooth & coherent momentum, and my acid test which is musicality. I don't care which format du jour it is, I simply want it all to sound so good that I become a more addicted music-holic and I buy more music regularly. I want a platform that allows me to explore new artists and musical styles without fussing over which format it is pre-recorded on be in Red Book CD, DVD-Audio, SA-CD, or DVD-Video and HDCD or JVC XRCD, etc. At the end of a long, hard, stressful day of balancing work with studying, I want to simply get lost in the music itself.

When I had the Panasonic SL-CT570 PCDP hooked up to a HeadRoom Cosmic (Reference Module) and Sennheiser HD600 with Cardas Headphone Cable Replacement or Grado RS-1 cans, I was impressed with the detail and clarity but I was missing out on the musicality and synergy. It just didn't do it for me. I didn't listen to any more music. I didn't buy a whole lot more music. Once I became much smarter with researching and auditioning before I bought any Hi-Fi equipment, I knew something was special about the Pioneer Elite DV-59AVi. It just played the music with such musicality that I simply could not afford to dismiss it as being another mass market OEM/ODM piece of equipment. When I learned about aftermarket modification services, I put my faith in the glowing reviews and plunked down the money. That's when my source component unlocked all of the jewels and gems hidden deep inside the 12cm discs themselves. That's when it went from sounding great to becoming a hand crafted, fine musical instrument.

Sorry for the long rant but I kind of have to take sides with Zanth, MarkL, and others who I expected to post in this monster thread that believe that 1. synergy is what makes or breaks a system, 2. the source component is the most critical component from which all the sound flows down the chain.

 

[sonance]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Welly Wu Sorry for the long rant but I kind of have to take sides with Zanth, MarkL, and others who I expected to post in this monster thread that believe that 1. synergy is what makes or breaks a system, 2. the source component is the most critical component from which all the sound flows down the chain.

I definitely agree with 1, probably the most important point to take out of this lengthy discussion, i.e. synergy is what makes or breaks a system.
As for 2., I'm going to say that the most important component in a system to focus on is the weakest component. It's not always the source, or the transducer, or the amplifier or the cabling. It's whatever sounds the worst in your system. The source often is the weakest link in the chain, but as the axim holds, your entire system is only as good as the weakest link. The trick is having the time, resources, mindset and flexibility to hunt down and exorcise your weakest link (at which point there will be a new weakest link

.) It may well be the source, then again you may waste tons of money trying to exorcise demons that reside in your headphones or amplifier and trying to compensate for that with a source while it may work, may not be the best sounding or most time or cost economical way to go. In a way it all comes back to point no. 1

 

[edstrelow]

There are issues of perceptual learning in audio, by which I mean learning to attend to aspects of sound which although detectable are not sufficientlky salient to the hearer to be regularly noticed. The comparisons with musical training are I think quite apt. Once you develope these skills it is not too difficult to make discriminations that others find difficult.

I have 2 kids and a wife who don't really show much ability to discriminate the fine points of audio although they nevertheless react well to good sound reproduction when they are given it.

The point for most people in audio ultimately is to enjoy music and to try to get as enjoyable system as they can within their budget constraints. Some people seem to get hung up on miniscule aspects of sonic performance but they feel that this matters to them it's their money and time.

I have decided that the goal of having the "best" could be way too expensive for me and partly I think I am topping out on the cost/benefit ratio. Big buck items may hurt my sense of financial well-being more than they will give me increased auditory satisfaction. Everyone has their own point on this continuum.

BTW to see what I mean see my review yesterday of a $200 Newcastle CD player.

 

[Nak Man]

Quote:

Originally Posted by edstrelow The point for most people in audio ultimately is to enjoy music and to try to get as enjoyable system as they can within their budget constraints. Some people seem to get hung up on miniscule aspects of sonic performance but they feel that this matters to them it's their money and time.

Can't agree more with you here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by edstrelow I have followed some of the recent threads pointing out that the newer electronics are much improved and that the cost/benefit ratio seems to be getting ridiculous. This machine is much better at this price than could have been found even 5 years ago.

Considering the CEC that you've used and loved so much, your review was like a breeze of fresh air. Equating performance to price is somewhat off mark, to be polite, imo.

Slightly off topic, but on the other thread I share similar opinion with some other headfiers that sometimes lower-fi repro system actually gets us more into the music - rather than being distracted by extra details etc. I enjoyed being blasted by ultra resolution of revel salon with ml amps, but the mind wanders around reproduced sound and can't really relax to the music. Hence the 'groovalizer' term (on phones).

 

[Nak Man]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Welly Wu 2. the source component is the most critical component from which all the sound flows down the chain.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sonance I'm going to say that the most important component in a system to focus on is the weakest component. It's not always the source, or the transducer, or the amplifier or the cabling. It's whatever sounds the worst in your system. The source often is the weakest link in the chain

If accuracy can be used as a 'standard' in measuring the quality of sound reproduction, i.e. relative strengths and weaknesses, then the +/- 0.5db of source's accuracy are really in the order of several magnitudes 'better' than transducers +/- 3dB specs. Therefore making the end chain, speakers or transducers to be the relatively weaker link. And for speakers you need to deal with room interaction that can easily mess up the sound quality, in a big way.

 

[10068]

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnnysize excellent post beauregard. It seems like im always hearing people say they don't consider themselves audiophiles because they can't hear differences that other claim to. IMO the only difference between an "audiophile" and someone who thinks they aren't is a lack of confidence in what they hear. We are all hearing the same thing, "audiophiles" are just more arrogant, confident, pretentious, etc. about what they hear. I wouldn't say that they are lying about what they hear, but I think they are of a personality type that exaggerates and pretends to know more than they really do.

You realize there's such a thing as differences in physiological and psychological sensitivity, right? I can taste the differences between every brand of bottled water, milk, and juice. This same sensitivity carries over into all my senses, hearing included. Just because you have no experience with "owning" sensitive ears does not mean they don't exist. You even admitted yourself, that you can't tell the difference between various components

Maybe it's because your ears simply aren't able to pick out the differences. Everyone's level of sensitivity, awareness and observation of stimuli is different.

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sduibek You realize there's such a thing as differences in physiological and psychological sensitivity, right? I can taste the differences between every brand of bottled water, milk, and juice. This same sensitivity carries over into all my senses, hearing included. Just because you have no experience with "owning" sensitive ears does not mean they don't exist. You even admitted yourself, that you can't tell the difference between various components Maybe it's because your ears simply aren't able to pick out the differences. Everyone's level of sensitivity, awareness and observation of stimuli is different.

I was once was working on a case involving one of the major brewing companies and someone in the know told me that they had people whose taste buds were so developed and acute re different brands of beer that they could not only tell the difference between each type of beer brewed by that company and name the type (e.g., Budweiser, Busch, Michelob), but they could also tell you the brewery (e.g., Newark, St. Louis) where that particular beer was brewed.

 

[Dimitris]

Don't you guys love the fact that we are already in the 14th sheet on the same thread and yet we havent actually ended up somewhere?

I think its a clear sign that everything on music and hi-fi is subjective!

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dimitris Don't you guys love the fact that we are already in the 14th sheet on the same thread and yet we havent actually ended up somewhere?

To paraphrase Michael Keaton in Nightshift: "Is this a great [forum] or what?!"