[BIG POPPA]

I guess some people do not pay enough for their gear to hear a difference in any change in their signal chain? It is OK, But please don't hold anybody hostage by it.

 

[olblueyez]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BIG POPPA /img/forum/go_quote.gif I guess some people do not pay enough for their gear to hear a difference in any change in their signal chain? It is OK, But please don't hold anybody hostage by it.

People should bring some experience to the plate and not a ton of regurgitated BS. Most of the non believers fit into one of those three categories. I made no comment on his equipment. I asked him what category he fits into?

 

[BIG POPPA]

I'm closer to 30 years in hi-fi then 25. Head-fi in the last few years. When did the "Non Believers" get into hi-fi and what year was it? 2008?

 

[olblueyez]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BIG POPPA /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm closer to 30 years in hi-fi then 25. Head-fi in the last few years. When did the "Non Believers" get into hi-fi and what year was it? 2008?

1982 for me.

 

[gilency]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BIG POPPA /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm closer to 30 years in hi-fi then 25. Head-fi in the last few years. When did the "Non Believers" get into hi-fi and what year was it? 2008?

Its called progress.

 

[spanimal]

Compressional Flagellation - What exactly was the point of that video and how exactly does that relate to interconnects. Man, don't ya know that some truths should never be spoken of, let alone joked about - I promise you that somewhere someone in this lifetime has experienced something at a trauma level that would equal the trauma if the actions depicted in the video if such events should occur outside of a joke - I worry about the mental health of anybody that found that amusing, as laughter is often a very transparent attempt to hide ones true feelings. Without going too deeply into the state of your unconscoius - just the fact that you posted it up illustrates how immature you are.
I would absolutely end your existence if you were to show this material to my children, posting this sort of rubbish in a family friendly - respectful site such as head-fi is only slightly less wrong - wrong nevertheless. Where are the managers of this site and why are they not ensuring that head-fi does not lower its ethical standard.
Don't let me catch you in my neighbourhood or I guarantee your skinny ass will never see the light of day again you sick ****.

 

[spanimal]

Number1sixerfan - Scientifically speaking - there absolutely must be some degree of difference in between two identical model new headphones due to manufactring tolerances. Whether they can be perceived by the human ear is whats in question. Why are the sen650 headphone drivers hand matched - to account for subtle differences in manufacturing tolerances - sen acknowledges this. Two brand new vehicles of same model - one will go harder than the other due to manufacturing tolerances - some may notice some may not.

I find its all relative. I find negligible difference between Coke and Pepsi - I think anyone that think they can taste a difference is imagining it. Prove me wrong and show me the taste measurements. Is there a measured difference between bitter and sweet outputs. No, hence no difference exists and this quasi science does not prove anything to me.

Its relative because cables don't make any difference if you ask me to AB when I have just been stabbed with a knife - I may still bleed to death. But I find that when I have nothing on my mind it seems to make a fair degree of difference.

I am willing to bet my blood that If any of you were to find for me a man born blind to compare cables. This person must be able to pick the correct cable upon hearing the sound. Prove me wrong.

 

[number1sixerfan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by royalcrown /img/forum/go_quote.gif number1sixfan: I think a lot of what you discuss can be explained by the limitations of words as representational of sound. You often hear all sorts of fancy rhetoric used when describing how something sounds, but at the end of the day nobody can tell you how something sounds without some sort of relevant reference. For example, people bickering about how much bass a specific transducer outputs may be reflected in what each person thinks a lot of bass is. That, however, doesn't mean that they hear differently, just like we don't see colors. Rather, we perceive things as differently from the same stimulus, and the difference between sensation and perception is huge. Something "red" doesn't have a specific property of the color red, but rather we perceive it as red - contrast this with a dog, who (IIRC) can't see in color and therefore that object isn't red, it's grey. People perceiving two identical stimulus as different doesn't, from what I see, support either side of the argument. Perhaps you can explain specifically the link between people's differing perception and cables? It sounds pretty interesting.

I think that is part of it(and because this is an online forum it can be a big part of it), but certainly not all of it. For example, some find Grados bright and too harsh to listen to(physically being too bright for them to use), but then others are not bothered by those tendencies of the phone. The only way to explain such phenomenon is that people hear differently.

I mean, its a fact that people hear differently, we can prove this with professional hearing test.

Quote:

Originally Posted by spanimal /img/forum/go_quote.gif Number1sixerfan - Scientifically speaking - there absolutely must be some degree of difference in between two identical model new headphones due to manufactring tolerances. Whether they can be perceived by the human ear is whats in question. Why are the sen650 headphone drivers hand matched - to account for subtle differences in manufacturing tolerances - sen acknowledges this. Two brand new vehicles of same model - one will go harder than the other due to manufacturing tolerances - some may notice some may not.

I think this is a valid point, but cannot account for the degree of differences explained on this site imo.

But lets switch gears....

How would you account for one person thinking that the DT880 retrieves more detail on the same system(which is optimized for both the specs of both cans) than the K701, while another person believes that the K701 does.

How do you explain this? Is it differences in hearing? Is it placebo? Which one retrieves more detail? Science doesn't tell us which one does, and even if it did surely many people would disagree while others would agree.

What I am getting at, is that science isn't the ultimate answer to everything. It simply tells us that a difference exist, which is nice. It even gives a hint at how something should sound(headphone charts for instance), but in many instances it the real world application is much different.

 

[Bullseye]

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[Bullseye]

/Double post

 

[spanimal]

Number1sixerfan - I like you. I seem to really enjoy reading posts by all headphonus supremus members - all reasonable and pleasant people I feel when I read your comments. I feel I have been tutored by the most experienced field of audio analysts (the term audiophile sits bad with me). I feel bad about one of my posts but I was really hurt by a members comments.

You seem to already have the answersed correctly to the question you posed regarding the differences between the two headphones. It is for all those reasons you propose - and more.

Human hearing is far more volatile than sight. You can shut your eyes quickly enough with sudden flashes of bright light, but we all know hearing damage is done before we realise.

Damage or adaptation? our eyes have adaptive brightness sensors, go from sunshine to indoors and everything is too dark - the sensor readjust output levels of the eyeball to a level where our sight sensor is at its most effective at distinguishing differences our brain can now compute - render - a cognitive image where differences are more recognisable - essential to animal survival. This phenomena can not be measured but we all know it occurs.

Same for hearing. When night clubbing our sensors dull the uncomfortably loud music to a level where we can hear the more subtle detail - like that girls voice yelling at you, the one you like. Everything is too soft afterwards as well, until the sensor re-adjusts the level to suit. I bet your bottom dollar that there is the most transparent, sophisticated infinite band graphics equaliser occuring concurrently with the level adjustment. An individual will retrieve more detail at the frequency at which his hearing has adapted itself to.
A construction worker absolutely must have a different frequency response filter to a worker in a quiet environment.

I dont know dt880 sound. My first great headphone is HD650 and since last week when I did a 180 turnaround and realised cables made a discernible difference I bought AKG 701. It has just occurred to me that no one likes both EQUALLY - one will always prefer one over the other if one MUST choose. Detail will depend on which frequency the sound engineer puts them in (probably depends on what headphone he was wearing at the time) and whether your headphone strengths are at that frequency. Trust me when I say we all have a favoured recording artist/genre/label/CD/LP/MP3 and then we have our own internal graphic equaliser that has been pre-set from experience - Hence the vast differences in opinion.

My musical tastes and internal equaliser has firmly adapted to the 650 sound and this is not veiled and is more detailed at my adapted frequency response of bass and lower midrange the 650 introduced me to. The 701 is more detailed at the treble and upper midrange undoubtedly but that is less relevant when I have not yet adapted to those frequencies. The bass is tighter - but there is so much less. I find it harsh and bright. But I promise you If I had the 701 first, then 650 afterward 650 would definitely be dull, veiled, sloppy and slow. I like the nylon string guitar better than steel string. 650 showed me. 701 teaches me steel string is better than nylon string - who do I believe. How can the 701 be more detailed overall than 650 when it doesn't even have the lower midrange and bass level prerequisite that my hearing has adapted itself to seek the detail in. I know this will change If I choose to let my filters adapt to the 701s. I can do this by listening to music that the 701s excel at reproducing, this will render the 650 less capable and bridge the gap.

On a final note - there is no way a cable will make these two phones sound similar - I dont care how much they cost. I still have never purchased Interconnects outright - But there is a difference in sound quality between all my cables that is very discernable.

 

[cegras]

Quote:

Originally Posted by olblueyez /img/forum/go_quote.gif 1) Your not in a discussion that has any conclusion. 2) If you have not provided any proof that I cannot hear what I hear than it is you who is in the wrong thread 3) What category do you belong too? Low End equipment? No Experience? or just a basic need to inflict yourself on everyone because you cant do it in a thread where there is a right and wrong answer? You speak of Proof but you offer NONE!!! Maybe you should live up to your own criteria. My claim is that this is a circle jerk and every time this thread gets one post longer it makes my point. How bout one of you guys prove something instead of always asking for it??? You didn't even read the entire thread, I can tell by the things you are saying.

Why would I offer any proof to prove your claim? I clearly stated that the convention of most intellectual discussions is that if you make a claim, the burden of proof rests with you. For example, how would you even begin to quantify what a 'larger' soundstage is, and how 'sweet' the music is? Are these not traits of the music itself?

Quote:

Originally Posted by BIG POPPA /img/forum/go_quote.gif I guess some people do not pay enough for their gear to hear a difference in any change in their signal chain? It is OK, But please don't hold anybody hostage by it.

Please try not to be a snob. I'm sure you would fail in a DBT.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BIG POPPA /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm closer to 30 years in hi-fi then 25. Head-fi in the last few years. When did the "Non Believers" get into hi-fi and what year was it? 2008?

That means your hearing has deteriorated, most likely. It's a fact that as one gets older, one's hearing starts to diminish at the edges. What are doing to make up for it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by olblueyez /img/forum/go_quote.gif 1982 for me.

So what? I've been playing piano for nearly all my life, that is to say maybe about 11 years. That gives me as much as advantage as your 'experience' does - namely, nothing more than good taste in music.

 

[cegras]

Quote:

Originally Posted by number1sixerfan /img/forum/go_quote.gif How do you explain this? Is it differences in hearing? Is it placebo? Which one retrieves more detail? Science doesn't tell us which one does, and even if it did surely many people would disagree while others would agree. What I am getting at, is that science isn't the ultimate answer to everything. It simply tells us that a difference exist, which is nice. It even gives a hint at how something should sound(headphone charts for instance), but in many instances it the real world application is much different.

Science may not be able to tell you right now, but if you adopt a critical thinking approach, all may not be attributed to the musical soul.

Think: the system may be identical. But what about the people?

- Are their ears the same? What about the outer ear? The inner ear? The amount of accumulated hearing damage?

- What about their sitting position when they were listening? Leaning forward? Reclining? Closing their eyes?

- Body type? Are they overweight, underweight? Do they feel hot in the ambient temperature, or are they cold?

- What sort of cumulative experiences have they had prior to listening? What headphones have they been acclimated too? For example, what if the one who listened to the Beyerdynamic had been used to a more bassy headphone, and thus found the K701 weak sounding (just an example, don't quote my descriptions of the headphones against me)?

- Could there have been any transient spikes in ambient noise which affected their perception?

- And many, many more factors.

As you can plainly see, the listening environment is far from identical.

 

[gilency]

Quote:

Originally Posted by spanimal /img/forum/go_quote.gif Compressional Flagellation - I would absolutely end your existence if you were to show this material to my children, posting this sort of rubbish in a family friendly - respectful site such as head-fi is only slightly less wrong - wrong nevertheless. Where are the managers of this site and why are they not ensuring that head-fi does not lower its ethical standard. Don't let me catch you in my neighbourhood or I guarantee your skinny ass will never see the light of day again you sick ****.

Death threats are not appreciated. I may not approve of the video but this is a free country.

 

[nick_charles]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BIG POPPA /img/forum/go_quote.gif I guess some people do not pay enough for their gear to hear a difference in any change in their signal chain? It is OK, But please don't hold anybody hostage by it.

So if I paid $12000 for a Goldmund CD player instead of my $200 - $500 CD players I would be able to hear the 0.01db differences that I currently cannot hear, interesting, more interesting with the fact that the Goldmund is a rebadged $200 Pioneer DVD player. Yet somehow having a big price tag will grant it magical resolving powers ?

However, I can tell you with utter and documented certainty, 10/10 in diferent DBTs that I can hear the differences between my 4 different, yet modest CD players, surely this must be impossile since none of them are expensive. These differences are as low as 0.7db in one case, the cables I have tested however have differences typically at least an order of magnitude smaller.

I have made public samples from cable recordings I have made and nobody has been able to tell them apart reliably.