If that is your definition of subtlety, I'm in the camp that there are large differences between DACs then. It's possible that there are subtle differences between a topping dac and a SMSL dac. But from my recent test of a Schiit Yggdrasil and Holo Audio Spring, there's no confusion how differently each DAC presented the music. Also, certain songs will help discern the differences. There were some songs that made little to no difference immediate difference but with other songs (jazz, orchestral, etc) it seemed as if I was wearing different headphones each time I switched.
If that is your definition of subtlety, I'm in the camp that there are large differences between DACs then. It's possible that there are subtle differences between a topping dac and a SMSL dac. But from my recent test of a Schiit Yggdrasil and Holo Audio Spring, there's no confusion how differently each DAC presented the music. Also, certain songs will help discern the differences. There were some songs that made little to no difference immediate difference but with other songs (jazz, orchestral, etc) it seemed as if I was wearing different headphones each time I switched.
Well, there you go. If you have to pick and choose songs to hear a difference, that right there tells you that difference is more subtle. You would never have to pick and choose a song to hear differences among headphones.
There are two things at play here:
1. How big is the difference
2. How important is that difference?
The importance aspect is purely subjective and there can be no debate about it. The difference itself is much less subjective and could be quantified to some extent.
Well, there you go. If you have to pick and choose songs to hear a difference, that right there tells you that difference is more subtle. You would never have to pick and choose a song to hear differences among headphones.
There are two things at play here:
1. How big is the difference
2. How important is that difference?
The importance aspect is purely subjective and there can be no debate about it. The difference itself is much less subjective and could be quantified to some extent.
Even $42 Nobsound 8xTDA1387 makes a difference. It is a matter of chosing technology. You say all DACs sound almost the same, did you test R2R converters? If remember correctly you had been asked this question already. R2R converters (multibit in general) differ much more between each other and comparing to delta sigma doesn't make really sense.
To answer your second questions. Depends on the music you are listening to, it may be not recognised immediately. Even more: if you only listen to EDM type, you will probably stay with DS that produce clean main tones. For all others it is important how long we can listen to music without a fatigue. Acoustic instruments engage special patterns (templates) in our brain, it allows to identify object very quick. A sound that do not match a pattern require extensive processing that can exhaust our processing power. When it happen, instrument separation becames impaired and a fatigue occours early. We stop listening.
TL;DR, It is a big difference and it is important that we listen to music more.
I am not going to quote anything. Nonsense should not be repeated to often or people will start thinking there might be something to it.
If you use a headphone you are using a single driver. Comparing a driver that has to produce 20-20kHz, with all its physical limitations on driving force, mass, resonance, bundling, impedance, damping etc etc to a dac that almost always measures ruler flat within 1dB is not just comparing apples and oranges, it verges on intellectual dishonesty. A single driver, HP or speaker, will have severe frequency response issues of over 10dB, lack of bass, slow highs, bundling, peaks of stored energy.
When you are comparing to headphones you are talking about a willfully taken severe compromise. Then you are listening to differences of 10x the energy on certain frequencies (=10dB).That is 'soundreviews for dummies', or if that were a bright yellow and black book it would probably not be as savvy as the others in the series. If that's the way you listen anything relating to other parameters than gross frequency discrepancies will be lost on you... Things like slew rate, reverb, pre- and post-echo, damping factor, channel separation. All those pesky nuances that don't seem to be wanting to be captured in 'measurements'.
I have made lots of modifications on lots of dacs. Even changing 1 component in signal path (dac output stage or amp) can make a huge difference. Let alone a complete dac.
Even a frequency plot has an x-axis, a y-axis and a z-axis (time window is mostly just a footnote but very important for getting a 'nice' graph AND for music reproduction). There's a lot more to music than just amplitude.
If you sit behind your computer all day with overpriced headphones on, that does not make you an expert. Well, maybe on computers, but not on music reproduction. For that you need a lot wider experience.
A $2000 is about 1 - 3% better than a $500 dac, which is just a little better than cheaper ones, like a Schiit Modius. Over excited reviewers make it seem like the latest a greatest dac is like 300% better, but it's not. Dacs can only contribute so much, speakers and headphones make the most difference, amps next since they control the headphones, dacs last. Your sources material(streaming, cd, DSD) is the most important, makes the largest difference.
A $2000 is about 1 - 3% better than a $500 dac, which is just a little better than cheaper ones, like a Schiit Modius. Over excited reviewers make it seem like the latest a greatest dac is like 300% better, but it's not. Dacs can only contribute so much, speakers and headphones make the most difference, amps next since they control the headphones, dacs last. Your sources material(streaming, cd, DSD) is the most important, makes the largest difference.
Aren't you the OP of this thread? How can you say that with such certainty when you were the one asking if current day budget DACs are as good as older generation high end DACs? I've done those price comparisons and know many others who will tell you that 1-3% is definitely not the case. Which one of these categories do you fall into?
1) they've never tried a DAC >$500, 2) they've only tried chip based dacs, 3) their amp/headphone is lacking in one area or another, 4) they only care about measurement.
A $2000 is about 1 - 3% better than a $500 dac, which is just a little better than cheaper ones, like a Schiit Modius. Over excited reviewers make it seem like the latest a greatest dac is like 300% better, but it's not. Dacs can only contribute so much, speakers and headphones make the most difference, amps next since they control the headphones, dacs last. Your sources material(streaming, cd, DSD) is the most important, makes the largest difference.
It's hard to quantify "better" unless you establish a metric and measure. Why not make it purely subjective and say: The $2,000 DACs performance increase isn't better enough for me to justify this type of a spending. You can also say that the $500 DACs performance increase over a $100 DAC isn't important enough to me to justify the price increase. This will put to bed all the arguments and arbitrary percentages that people come up with.
I have heard very expensive DACs and I have compared them to much less expensive DACs and I haven't always heard better sound coming out of the very expensive DACs and when I did, the differences weren't important enough for me to consider those purchases.
I have heard very expensive DACs and I have compared them to much less expensive DACs and I haven't always heard better sound coming out of the very expensive DACs and when I did, the differences weren't important enough for me to consider those purchases.
This statement is very vague though and can be made with anything item that has a luxury version of it.
I've tried very expensive _____ and I have compared them to much less expensive ___ and I haven't always felt that the very expensive ____ was better than the less expensive ones but when I did, the differences weren't important enough for me to consider those purchases.
I think it's always better to put down what you're actually comparing to and what you are using when comparing when it comes to audio. That way, it can be informative to those looking for feedback.
It's hard to quantify "better" unless you establish a metric and measure. Why not make it purely subjective and say: The $2,000 DACs performance increase isn't better enough for me to justify this type of a spending. You can also say that the $500 DACs performance increase over a $100 DAC isn't important enough to me to justify the price increase. This will put to bed all the arguments and arbitrary percentages that people come up with.
I have heard very expensive DACs and I have compared them to much less expensive DACs and I haven't always heard better sound coming out of the very expensive DACs and when I did, the differences weren't important enough for me to consider those purchases.
That is the right way to do it.
You have to listen for yourself and decide if a certain increase in price is worth it for you personally.
And since there is no baseline on that it's impossible to describe it with something like a percentage. Just as you said, it's hard to quantify "better"
It's also a well established fact, that audio gear has serious dimnishing returns.
This statement is very vague though and can be made with anything item that has a luxury version of it.
I've tried very expensive _____ and I have compared them to much less expensive ___ and I haven't always felt that the very expensive ____ was better than the less expensive ones but when I did, the differences weren't important enough for me to consider those purchases.
I think it's always better to put down what you're actually comparing to and what you are using when comparing when it comes to audio. That way, it can be informative to those looking for feedback.
Ok, I have heard $15,000 DACs and I have compared them to $200 DACs and I haven't found $15,000 DACs either to be better all or better enough where I thought that spending that kind of money would contribute enough to my musical enjoyment. The same goes for $5,000 DACs, $800 DACs and $500 DACs. I have upgraded my $200 M-Audio Fastrack Pro to Topping E30. The Topping is better in that the details are a bit smudged on the M-Audio DAC (considering it's about 15 years old). However, I could very happily live with the M-Audio DAC if I had to. However, I felt that the increase in "better" justified the $140 expenditure.
There wouldn’t be a fidelity market if we could live with iPhones, dongles and air buds alone. Every component makes a difference in my comparison, the only time my jury was out was on linear power conditioners and high end audio rj ethernet cables, but that’s just me.
yes Virginia there are differences and the rabbit holes are many and deep
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