[iamoneagain]

This thread should not be a debate about lossless in general. It specific to Apple Music lossless. Yes, you can bring in facts into these threads, but they can also be subjective. The audio science threads don’t allow opinions and is a better place to discuss the science of lossy files.

People are coming to this thread to figure out how to get lossless working properly, how the app compares to other services, that kind of thing. They don’t need some coming in and saying over and over you can’t hear the difference anyway. There are many that can hear the difference regardless of how many time you post they can’t. Go into a hires vs cd quality thread and see how you do there.

 

[amarkabove]

This argument is ignoring the two biggest factors in the entire debate: what/when/how to original recording was made and the fact that psychoacoustics are very much a very real and very important factor. I know personally I have on more than one occasion spent 20+ minutes adjusting EQ until I felt I got it jusssstttt right and everyone else in the room thought it sounded perfect, only to later realize I had been adjusting the EQ of a separate channel and hadn't actually adjusted anything. I've also had audience members go out of their way thanking me for the "adjustments" I made when they stopped by the desk at intermission when all I did was move a dummy fader. I also know I work in 48khz more often than not just to keep file size down and because no one can tell the difference in the room, even if I can certainly tell the difference on my studio monitors.

If someone thinks Apple Lossless sounds better than lossy, then it does for them, much in the same way some people see a gold/white dress, and some people see a blue/black one.

 

[Andrew_WOT]

I can tell mp3 vs flac apart in my own controlled test on familiar tracks with my equipment. Same as I can tell standard vs lossless (HD) quality on amazon music.
Am I interested to debate it here, hell no? My days of convincing someone on internet that they are wrong are long gone.
I am here only because I am looking for another LOSSLESS streaming service as potential replacement for non bit-perfect Amazon and really do not appreciate hijacking of this thread. There is a proper place to discuss this. Please be civil and respect other posters in this topic who is more interested in the subject than yet another formats war.
Thank you

 

[iamoneagain]

I can tell mp3 vs flac apart in my own controlled test on familiar tracks with my equipment. Same as I can tell standard vs lossless (HD) quality on amazon music.
Am I interested to debate it here, hell no? My days of convincing someone on internet that they are wrong are long gone.
I am here only because I am looking for another LOSSLESS streaming service as potential replacement for non bit-perfect Amazon and really do not appreciate hijacking of this thread. There is a proper place to discuss this. Please be civil and respect other posters in this topic who is more interested in the subject than yet another formats war.
Thank you

I’ll chime back in because I was unaware Amazon wasn’t bit perfect. Do you have any links about that? I didn’t like Amazon because the way the app is organized is bad. They don’t have the albums in order or broken out by album vs ep. They also mix and match albums track types with some hires and some cd.

I like how Apple has theirs setup with even have complications broken out. They also have link to the album label. Scrolling lyrics works great on the phone. I think it has the slickest interface on the iPhone. Spotify is just functional easier and has more genre breakouts.

The once Apple gets lossless worked out and Spotify get hifi, I’d probably go with Spotify just because I like how Spotify Connect works vs Airplay. Spotify Connect plays within the streamer and the mobile devices are just controllers. Airplay is streaming directly from the phone and you can’t hand it off. But in the end it will depend on which interface is the best.

 

[Andrew_WOT]

I’ll chime back in because I was unaware Amazon wasn’t bit perfect. Do you have any links about that?

You can pick up from here
Amazon added exclusive mode that prevents other apps from sharing audio stream and disables in app volume but did not provide direct bit-perfect path to the DAC throwing it at OS Mixer that does resampling to whatever you set in Control Panel (and not the best quality), clipping volume control, additional effects, etc.

 

[iamoneagain]

You can pick up from here
Amazon added exclusive mode that prevents other apps from sharing audio stream and disables in app volume but did not provide direct bit-perfect path to the DAC throwing it at OS Mixer that does resampling to whatever you set in Control Panel (and not the best quality), clipping volume control, additional effects, etc.

Oh got it, using on the Mac. I would just be using from iPhone or iPad and streaming over Airplay. I believe that was lossless at cd quality. But as said, the interface isn’t the great, Apple Music is much better.

And thanks for keeping this thread on track.

 

[iamoneagain]

So I decided to give Apple Music another try since they had 3 mo for one offer. Sadly I can tell the lossless issue has not been resolved. Regardless of what others are posting about lossy and lossless sounding the same, that’s not the case in my system. Playing 44/16 track from Qobuz thru roon vs Apple Music over Airplay 2, roon is the clear winner. There is more separation between instruments and vocals, more decay, air, depth, and dynamics. It’s not a huge difference but it’s adds up to make lossless version more a pleasure to listen to. I tried from iPhone with iOS 15.2 and iPad with beta 15.3 and same results.

Oh well, I guess I have to keep waiting for Spotify to come around. That’s looking more and more hopeless too. Maybe Qobuz will improve their library is my last hope.

 

[amarkabove]

So I decided to give Apple Music another try since they had 3 mo for one offer. Sadly I can tell the lossless issue has not been resolved. Regardless of what others are posting about lossy and lossless sounding the same, that’s not the case in my system. Playing 44/16 track from Qobuz thru roon vs Apple Music over Airplay 2, roon is the clear winner. There is more separation between instruments and vocals, more decay, air, depth, and dynamics. It’s not a huge difference but it’s adds up to make lossless version more a pleasure to listen to. I tried from iPhone with iOS 15.2 and iPad with beta 15.3 and same results.

Oh well, I guess I have to keep waiting for Spotify to come around. That’s looking more and more hopeless too. Maybe Qobuz will improve their library is my last hope.

Apologies if you’ve already mentioned this earlier in the thread, but what is your set up that includes AirPlay 2. I know AirPlay only really supports up to 48k so do you think that’s where you’re noticing the difference?

 

[Nellie75]

I can tell mp3 vs flac apart in my own controlled test on familiar tracks with my equipment. Same as I can tell standard vs lossless (HD) quality on amazon music.
Am I interested to debate it here, hell no? My days of convincing someone on internet that they are wrong are long gone.
I am here only because I am looking for another LOSSLESS streaming service as potential replacement for non bit-perfect Amazon and really do not appreciate hijacking of this thread. There is a proper place to discuss this. Please be civil and respect other posters in this topic who is more interested in the subject than yet another formats war.
Thank you

I had Amazon Music for two years. I recently switched to Apple Music. I like Apple Music better in every way. The way music is organized and the UI is vastly improved. The sound quality is a lot better as well. I didn’t expect it to be as they are both hires. Comparing the two, everything is the same except Amazon Music was played in exclusive mode from my laptop USB out to my Schiit Modi and Apple Music is played through Apple TV by optical to my Schiit Modi.

What settings do you set on Apple TV for the best audio? I’ve recently gotten some crazy static chirping noises on some songs (no music at all, just static). I think these songs could be Dolby Atmos.

 

[AxelCloris]

We've removed a number of posts that were going off-topic, getting too far from the original spirit of the OP's post, or argumentative from the thread. Thank you for everyone who kept the conversation on-topic and for continuing any sound science discussions in the Sound Science forum. We greatly appreciate it. And now, back to Apple Music.

 

[iamoneagain]

Apologies if you’ve already mentioned this earlier in the thread, but what is your set up that includes AirPlay 2. I know AirPlay only really supports up to 48k so do you think that’s where you’re noticing the difference?

I’ll reply to this since asked directly.

My setup is a Naim Uniti Atom HE, Focal Utopia with Danacable. It has Airplay 2, Spotify Connect, Tidal Connect, Chromecast.

On the Naim forum, the tech posted screenshots showing the output of an iPhone, Mac, and pc, streaming to a Naim streamer. They all essential send a 256k aac Airplay 2 stream regardless of the Apple Music setting. Qobuz streamed at 44/16 lossless but nothing higher. On other forums, people have shown the same results to their Airplay 2 device. On older device with only Airplay 1, then it will receive 44/16 lossless. All very confusing and strange.

So when I was comparing roon/Qobuz vs Apple Music it was 44/16 lossless vs 256k aac. Regardless of what other say, I and others CAN hear the differences.

 

[amarkabove]

I’ll reply to this since asked directly.

My setup is a Naim Uniti Atom HE, Focal Utopia with Danacable. It has Airplay 2, Spotify Connect, Tidal Connect, Chromecast.

On the Naim forum, the tech posted screenshots showing the output of an iPhone, Mac, and pc, streaming to a Naim streamer. They all essential send a 256k aac Airplay 2 stream regardless of the Apple Music setting. Qobuz streamed at 44/16 lossless but nothing higher. On other forums, people have shown the same results to their Airplay 2 device. On older device with only Airplay 1, then it will receive 44/16 lossless. All very confusing and strange.

So when I was comparing roon/Qobuz vs Apple Music it was 44/16 lossless vs 256k aac. Regardless of what other say, I and others CAN hear the differences.

Very interesting on Apple’s part with the Airplay. I really wish they were more transparent about that and unlocked the Bluetooth in their devices to play with more codecs.

It’s very apparent why there is an audible difference and will continue to be unless something changes with. AirPlay.

 

[tmb821]

So I just started using Apple Music. I’m finding that when I use iPhone and otg, my dac matches whatever output the song is. If I use Bluetooth I get 44.1. If I use android, tablet or old android phone and Apple Music , I get 192 on dac, bt or otg. Amazon music shows 192 no matter what I use, android or iOS. Just confirming that this is normal and I’m not missing anything.

 

[Nellie75]

Anyone know why some songs play with no sound? For example, Jingle Bell Rovk by Hall & Oates. This is through Apple TV4K. Works on my iPhone. Ive had Apple Music for just a month and I never noticed it until I started playing some holiday music stations. If I deselect “stereo” and choose “Auto” in AppleTV settings I get some nasty static.

 

[dudeX]

My review of Apple Lossless compared to Tidal and Apple Music AAC.
I've been a subscriber to Apple Music since I got the original HomePod, a subscriber to Tidal Premium (HiFi+ now) since last year.
First a brief review of HomePod with Apple Music. HomePod as a single speaker isn't bad, it plays music loudly with good bass, no distortion (as in bass bleed/bloom) and you can hear instrument separation. But otherwise it's a decent speaker for a mono speaker. As a stereo pair it does sound a lot better since it's stereo, but I haven't had a stereo pair in years so I can't say much more about it. As for Siri, it's terrible, but it works for my needs.

When Lossless came out for the HomePod a few months back, I tried a few songs to test it. And I have to say it does sound better in the treble and bass. I felt that cymbals on AAC track felt muddy, and overall presentation can sound like a wall of sound as a mono speaker, but with Lossless it now reminds me of CD playback where each instrument sounds clear (for what the HomePod can resolve), bass is a little bit clearer. Midrange I can't tell a difference (since AAC is optimized for good midrange) but overall I am lot more satisfied listening to the HomePod with lossless than with AAC. Mind you, AAC is a pretty good format. I've enjoyed my iTunes collection for many years without feeling like I am losing a lot of detail on my IEMs, but on the HomePod, lossless just feels like my old CD players with speakers, but better.

Tidal using the Topping D90SE/A90 stack, using Drop 6xx, Drop HfM 5xx, and HD Poseidon.
I've used Tidal on my 2019 MacBook Pro over the last year and I found that MQA sounds different from hi-res or CD masters of the same album. I was never amazed with it but it sounded ok. Using a program like Audirvana or the pi2aes Pi-Hat on Rpi4 did make the sound better for Tidal, but using Tidal by itself on a playlist that is mostly MQA wasn't that interesting when listening passively. Only when I used Audirvana or a pi-hat was I tapping my feet or rocking my body to the music.

When Apple Lossless came out, I did quick comparisons and I was amazed how much better Apple Lossless sounded compared to Tidal using exclusive mode, so I think there's a real problem with the Tidal software player.

Recently I got a HarmonicDyne Poseidon and have been listening to some songs on it. I've decided to listen to Pink Floyd's The Dark Side of the Moon on it the other day because that's an album I've been listening to since I was young teen which is roughly 30 years. Tidal recently updated DSotM to use MQA (192khz) instead of FLAC and I listened to the whole album at night. I found that Tidal master had quite a bit of soundstage for the instruments, especially for the choir in some songs, but the vocals sounded a bit thin. Separation of instruments was pretty decent, and overall it felt like listen to a fresh presentation of the CD.
Then I listen to the Hi-res version of DSotM on Apple Music lossless. It seems that Apple also has a new master as well, certified as an Apple Master (24 bit/96khz). I found that while it didn't have the soundstage of the Tidal master, vocals were a lot more richer, which made the songs that have choir singers (Brain Damage, Eclipse, etc) feel more impactful. Instruments had more presence, like the sax in some songs. I liked the Apple version a lot more.
Overall, the Apple Music master had the emphasis and emotion that I wanted compared to the more separate and analytical(?) Tidal master.

As for the UI of Apple Music vs Tidal, I like tidal more. Apple Music needs to make lossless outside of the iPhone/IPad/Music App and make it available via third parties so something like Roon/Audirvana/volumio can stream it but it's nice that Apple Music sounds good without locking the sound interface. Imagine how much better it can sound if it could...