[GirgleMirt]

I realized Sennheisers take a bit of time to get used to the sound. HD6XX is an odd headphone due to the upper-mids (it may take time for ears to adjust due to this nature as other headphones maybe dipped in comparison). If you compare with a lot of headphones, it skews how recordings are present (or the other headphones do). It may just be correct in the mids, boosted, or represents the mids tonality of studio monitors perhaps (which maybe why recordings are represted the will they are with it?)? I tie the relation to studio monitors because mids pop out with recordings you hear as a bit flat with other headphones.

I think the most electrostatic sounding dynamic headphone I heard was HD800. Personally do not like the treble peaks and lean nature though. I think it moves treble air more than electrostatic is the reason why I find it piercing.

I own the HD600, HD650, HD700 & HD800. Have also audition HD800s. Prefer the HD800 over the HD800s because it loses on micro details. The biggest problem with the 950 are the earpads. Too thin and does not seal well. The other problem is the crappy amp. Compare to even the basic Stax SRM-252s it a joke. I post some pictures later of the best setup IMO for the 950. In stock form it not a true giant killer. With a little mod, iit' pretty impressive.

And how are the 950s vs the 800 and 800s? And what are your thoughts vs the 650? Not sure if you saw my 650 comments in the spoiler 3 posts above, as an owner of them all, would you agree or disagree? From re-reading my old posts, I vaguely recall that the floppy/muddy bass really disappointed me, and as I said the detail/resolution of the 650 seemed disappointingly low vs 400i...

For the Elex, I made a poll in the recommendation thread, and it does appear like the Elex wouldn't really fit the bill... https://www.head-fi.org/threads/best-500-800-upgrade-from-400i-and-q701.892399/

It's a bit weird that it seems so hard to find a good upgrade for the 400i... It does appear like the Elex might not be a 'clear' upgrade... (pun intended). I mean from this video for instance, it does appear that the Elex is a good all around performer, but, it's not as good as many of the cheaper offerings in many aspects;



My issue with the 400i, well, more like my issue after the 400i, is that once you get used to the detail and resolution, it's hard to go without. And obviously, if I was to spend almost $1000 for an upgrade, it should be a no brainer that the detail/resolution is better... In the vid above, he ended up returning the Elex...

So it does seem like the Koss 950 would be a decent upgrade to 400i, albeit some limitations (bass, dynamics), which makes it still interesting and a consideration; getting improvement in resolution would be great. But it then brings us to the Hifiman edition XX, which is at least I would think as good as the 400i in its strengths, and maybe not as great at resolution than ESP950, but maybe with more dynamism/bass/impact/etc, which might make them a better overall performer? As as I said, I'd rather have a headphone which is A all around, rather than one who's A+ in some aspects and B- or C in a few...

For Elex vs Koss, it does seem also that the Koss has an advantage in comfort, being that the Focals are apparently pretty heavy. That's also quite significant for me! 400i comfort definitely could be improved as they're a bit heavy and tend to get warm.

So yeah again after flip flopping a bunch, I think the 950 is still the top two contender with the HFM Edition XX. If it wasn't for 6 months wait time, I'd likely have bought either.

And btw did anyone ever compare the ESP950 to the Focal Clears? I guess used Clears could be a possibility, as if I'm lucky and find a good deal could cost about as much as new Elexes... But again, only going by a vague recollection of Tyll's innerfidelity review, which I should maybe watch again...

 

[Mani ATH 87]

Also when splurging that much money, it might not be very reasonable, it just seems to get to a point like throwing in another 3 or 400$ isn't all that much.

This is exactly what it's like when spending money on higher end headphones. Spending large sums of money gets you minor upgrades and differences in sound - that's it.

That's why I'm looking for innovation in headphones these days and not minor upgrades. Who wants to spend $500 for a little bit more bass extension or treble clarity?
That's just not me, I'm looking for new tech these days, something that changes the way we listen to music. I no longer really have interest in what the next best minor upgrade is, it just feels like a waste.

 

[SilverEars]

@GirgleMirt At least with my HD6XX, nothing sounds muddy/flabby, and it shouldn't due to it's open design. I use a good solid-state amp, and bass sounds impactful and tight. All around the HD6XX is very responsive and clear. I recommend it due to the kind of music you mention, as I have gone through those genres and found the headphone to be well suited for them. It's a great value.

 

[Mach3]

Here photo of my setup as promised

And how are the 950s vs the 800 and 800s? And what are your thoughts vs the 650? Not sure if you saw my 650 comments in the spoiler 3 posts above, as an owner of them all, would you agree or disagree? From re-reading my old posts, I vaguely recall that the floppy/muddy bass really disappointed me, and as I said the detail/resolution of the 650 seemed disappointingly low vs 400i...

For the Elex, I made a poll in the recommendation thread, and it does appear like the Elex wouldn't really fit the bill... https://www.head-fi.org/threads/best-500-800-upgrade-from-400i-and-q701.892399/

Like I mentioned before, I prefer the 800 over the 800s because the soundstage, micro detail,airyness and less forward mids.
This is pretty much the same reason why I prefer the SR-009 over the SR-009s in a recent trip to Japan (Side track a bit sorry)
I prefer the 950 over the 800 for more genre as they are more forgiving than the 800. Especially with the earpads change and connect to the Stax energizer shown in the photo I posted.
The thing is, bass is more textured. Treble are not diffused like the 800. Other thing I prefer are obviously the speed and pin point positioning capability.
As I'm use to listening to what most people called bright headphones. I find the 650 dark compared to 950. I would say most people would prefer the bass of the 650.
But IMO I think it loses to the 950 on everything else. The vocals and the treble on 650 can't compete with the 950.
First time I heard the 950, I was pretty disappointed with them. The only thing the made me kept them was the speed, they were my first electrostatic.
I wanted to know what all the fuss was about. It was only by sheer luck I read an article about the 950 being a hidden gem.
That I bothered to dig further, suggesting that the 950 being more than 30 years old. Obviously had design flaws. Namely the energizer and the thin earpads that don't seal well to produce any bass.
Last thing I like to mention is, the price to performance ratio of the 950 is extremely phenomenal. They cost me $490 used (when massdrop was not around) + $70 earpads + $50 Stax plug for cable adapter (Pre-made one are about $150) + $220 for Stax SRM-252s
Total is $840-$940 depending if you make the Stax adapter yourself or buy the pre-made Stax adapter.
Not saying I don't love the 800, It was my first high end headphone. I went straight to the 800 then worked my way down the chain, then back up with planars.
But all in all I've stop purchasing dynamic and planar as I prefer the sound of electrostatic. I truly believe they are end game stuff.
As mention by other member on the thread. If you don't like the 950 it pretty easy to flip them without losing too much money.
I can't comment on the Elex or the HFM XX as I have not heard of them nor am I interested in dynamics or planar anymore.
It #StaxBro all the way for me now.

 

[GirgleMirt]

This is exactly what it's like when spending money on higher end headphones. Spending large sums of money gets you minor upgrades and differences in sound - that's it.

Haha yeah diminishing returns! But that's not exactly what I meant, I meant that say that if you're spending 700$ for something which is 80/100, might as well spend 1000$ for something which will give you 90/100. Sure, it's ~45% more, but if you're going to splurge, it feels like you should always be spending a little more to get something better. But in reality it's not a little more, it's about 50% more!

As for diminishing returns, yeah hard to find the sweet spots of price/performance... The bang for the buck. IMHO, like the 400i at 220$ is ridiculous value. The issue comes when trying to upgrade, like you said if you spend just a little more then it's not that much better, if better at all (side-grade)... So then you're entering ridiculous pricing category, and still it's hard to find something. Ex; "Sure X is better than $220 400i, but not 800 dollars better, plus it doesn't even do XYZ all that great! What!".

It's a pain to find a real upgrade at an affordable a sane price...

 

[GirgleMirt]

@GirgleMirt At least with my HD6XX, nothing sounds muddy/flabby, and it shouldn't due to it's open design. I use a good solid-state amp, and bass sounds impactful and tight. All around the HD6XX is very responsive and clear. I recommend it due to the kind of music you mention, as I have gone through those genres and found the headphone to be well suited for them. It's a great value.

When you say that bass is impactful, tight, and not at all muddy/flabby, what are you comparing it to? Because it's all relative... My reference was 400i, 800 and 800s. Take for instance something like below.



I'm comparing my 990s, 598s, Q701 and 400i. On all headphones, you can hear the strings hit the neck and vibrate. But for the dynamic headphones, each bass note sounds like a singular note. Like the bass body does not seem like a bass body. On the 990 and Q701, for some reason the bass (the bass body resonance) seems huge, basically, the body doesn't even seem connected to the neck. And there's a disparity between the bass high and low registers; the lower the notes, the louder and bigger the note and the less connected it gets. Like you can hear the strings and neck but the bass body is just some big ass loud undefined bass sound floating. I'd equate this to what some call unrealistic soundstage. Nice say for orchestral, but like for this, it's quite bad... It can be great for other stuff though. But yeah, in essence, not very good.

Surprising, my Grados SR80 does a better job of having a 'normal' size bass body, but it doesn't sound or feel like a bass body at all either. But at least it feels more like it's the correct dimension. It still suffers from bad FR and some notes are way bigger than others, but still, unexpectedly, for this I'd say it does better than 990 or Q701. The 598 is somewhere in the middle of SR80 and 990/Q701. Also unexpectedly, the Sony V6s even do a tad bit better than SR80! Still a big disparity between strings, neck and body though, it does not sound like a bass.

Enter the 400i. It finally starts sounding like a legit bass. Finally it sounds like an instrument. Some call that musicality. You can hear the actual bass body and it sounds like an actual bass body resonating. And even the soundstage, it's finally spatially starting to make sense. The neck, strings and bass are all of correct relative size and sound connected together. Out of all the headphones, only this one sounds like a real bass. You can actually feel that the fingers are plucking strings which are hitting a neck and vibrating, and in turn make the bass body vibrate. Amazin!

So basically, given this track, only the 400i can do bass for crap. There's texture in the bass sounds. It's just not one note. There's texture in everything; details! You can actually hear into the sound; it can resolve fine details, everything sounds like real instruments. From what I recall from my past comments, the 800 line also did this very very well. Not the 650. What I meant by lowfi. Maybe in all honesty it should have been more midfi, if lowfi = uncoherent sound garbage, midfi = good sound but not ultra high resolution/musicality, and hifi = the latest 'step' of being able to retrieve fine details and really present an accurate/realistic sound.

From what I recall, the 650's bass was way closer to Q701/990 than 400i, and pretty much also no detail/resolution/texture... It just sounded super dark and very low resolution in contrast to 400i & 800 line... No bass texture at all; one note, like dynamic headphones above. It's weird that some said the 3000$ amp could have been the culprit, but anyway... Maybe your brain does adjust and then you're able to perceive the detail and resolution, but yeah just for a short demo, while being used to 400i sound and being able to switch from 650 to 800 line, ouch... I think that's the perfect way to absolutely hate the 650s!

 

[GirgleMirt]

Here photo of my setup as promised
Like I mentioned before, I prefer the 800 over the 800s because the soundstage, micro detail,airyness and less forward mids.
This is pretty much the same reason why I prefer the SR-009 over the SR-009s in a recent trip to Japan (Side track a bit sorry)
I prefer the 950 over the 800 for more genre as they are more forgiving than the 800. Especially with the earpads change and connect to the Stax energizer shown in the photo I posted.
The thing is, bass is more textured. Treble are not diffused like the 800. Other thing I prefer are obviously the speed and pin point positioning capability.
As I'm use to listening to what most people called bright headphones. I find the 650 dark compared to 950. I would say most people would prefer the bass of the 650.
But IMO I think it loses to the 950 on everything else. The vocals and the treble on 650 can't compete with the 950.
First time I heard the 950, I was pretty disappointed with them. The only thing the made me kept them was the speed, they were my first electrostatic.
I wanted to know what all the fuss was about. It was only by sheer luck I read an article about the 950 being a hidden gem.
That I bothered to dig further, suggesting that the 950 being more than 30 years old. Obviously had design flaws. Namely the energizer and the thin earpads that don't seal well to produce any bass.
Last thing I like to mention is, the price to performance ratio of the 950 is extremely phenomenal. They cost me $490 used (when massdrop was not around) + $70 earpads + $50 Stax plug for cable adapter (Pre-made one are about $150) + $220 for Stax SRM-252s
Total is $840-$940 depending if you make the Stax adapter yourself or buy the pre-made Stax adapter.
Not saying I don't love the 800, It was my first high end headphone. I went straight to the 800 then worked my way down the chain, then back up with planars.
But all in all I've stop purchasing dynamic and planar as I prefer the sound of electrostatic. I truly believe they are end game stuff.
As mention by other member on the thread. If you don't like the 950 it pretty easy to flip them without losing too much money.
I can't comment on the Elex or the HFM XX as I have not heard of them nor am I interested in dynamics or planar anymore.
It #StaxBro all the way for me now.

Thanks for the details, definitely very helpful!

Wow $220 for Stax amp is quite affordable, I had just checked on the Stax page and the cheapest amp they had was like $1000 US...! Hmm... You said the Koss amp was a joke vs the Stark... Is it really that bad? In a DBT level matched it would be very easy to spot you think?

 

[Mach3]

The SRM-252s usually comes bundle with entry Stax system. People tender to upgrade to the higher powered 353x or 727 etc.
So they sell the SRM-252s in the sales thread between $220-300. The Koss amp just doesn't have enough juice at all to properly power the 950.
Yeah I have done a DBT level test with my GF who has no clue in audio gear regards. But even she was able to pick them apart.
Even while I was in Japan with her she picked the SR-009 and the SR-009s apart 10/10 times.

 

[skris88]

So basically, given this track, only the 400i can do bass

Interesting comparision.

I had Sennheiser HD-600s and then HD-650s for more than 10 years. I had found both the 6X0s wooly in the bass and slightly dark. Especially so on solo piano; pretty sad bass!

I purchased the (Drop) HiFiMAN HE4XXs and couldn't be happier. Super tight. Super deep. Punch. Silky smooth highs. My best ever headphones purchase.

But these KOSS ESP/95X are intriguing tho. I was always enthralled by Stax but it's been perhaps 15 years since I listened to a pair properly. Better stay away. As it is said, double the $$$ from the HE4XXs but it won't be 2x the quality, and perhaps less "punch". And the negatives of being tied to a special connector-amp etc is just not worth the effort, IMHO.

 

[DenverW]

The 95x are on Massdrop right now for 400. Bit of a steal. Had these for a while with leather vesper pads and a woo audio wee. Very solid. I would recommend going up to the 353 if you’re getting a stax amp if you want to hear a more noticeable difference.

 

[Mach3]

God damn that's an absolute bargain. Btw they scale even better with from 353 to a KGSSHV. Which both I own.

 

[buke9]

God damn that's an absolute bargain. Btw they scale even better with from 353 to a KGSSHV. Which both I own.

Agree I have a SRM-1MK2 and have heard them on a KGSSHV Carbon also and they do scale well and that is a great price which leaves room for some Vesper pads.

 

[jotaku]

Here photo of my setup as promised

Like I mentioned before, I prefer the 800 over the 800s because the soundstage, micro detail,airyness and less forward mids.
This is pretty much the same reason why I prefer the SR-009 over the SR-009s in a recent trip to Japan (Side track a bit sorry)
I prefer the 950 over the 800 for more genre as they are more forgiving than the 800. Especially with the earpads change and connect to the Stax energizer shown in the photo I posted.
The thing is, bass is more textured. Treble are not diffused like the 800. Other thing I prefer are obviously the speed and pin point positioning capability.
As I'm use to listening to what most people called bright headphones. I find the 650 dark compared to 950. I would say most people would prefer the bass of the 650.
But IMO I think it loses to the 950 on everything else. The vocals and the treble on 650 can't compete with the 950.
First time I heard the 950, I was pretty disappointed with them. The only thing the made me kept them was the speed, they were my first electrostatic.
I wanted to know what all the fuss was about. It was only by sheer luck I read an article about the 950 being a hidden gem.
That I bothered to dig further, suggesting that the 950 being more than 30 years old. Obviously had design flaws. Namely the energizer and the thin earpads that don't seal well to produce any bass.
Last thing I like to mention is, the price to performance ratio of the 950 is extremely phenomenal. They cost me $490 used (when massdrop was not around) + $70 earpads + $50 Stax plug for cable adapter (Pre-made one are about $150) + $220 for Stax SRM-252s
Total is $840-$940 depending if you make the Stax adapter yourself or buy the pre-made Stax adapter.
Not saying I don't love the 800, It was my first high end headphone. I went straight to the 800 then worked my way down the chain, then back up with planars.
But all in all I've stop purchasing dynamic and planar as I prefer the sound of electrostatic. I truly believe they are end game stuff.
As mention by other member on the thread. If you don't like the 950 it pretty easy to flip them without losing too much money.
I can't comment on the Elex or the HFM XX as I have not heard of them nor am I interested in dynamics or planar anymore.
It #StaxBro all the way for me now.

Where did you get the earpads?

 

[Mach3]

Where did you get the earpads?

Vesper Audio

 

[buke9]

Vesper Audio

Have them myself and love them.