[Covenant]

I've heard many headphones over the past couple of years, and my sonic preferences have slowly evolved as i've discovered each new headphone and new sound signature, to where it is today. Currently the HD600 has the best blend of qualities i've found to meet my desires in a dynamic headphone, but i'm wondering if there might not be better out there I havent tried.

My headphone preferences are as follows:
*Clarity and inner detail are a must
*Accurate imaging
*Warm side of neutral tone and timbre
*Heft, weight and 'presence' to the music, decay of notes must not be sacrificed in favour of their attack or leading edges
*Bass slam, visceral impact, as well as tautness and texture
*Be comfortable and well built physically

Soundstage does not necessarily have to be concert-hall wide, nor cathedral-ceiling high. However the overall frequency response of the headphone needs to be relatively balanced and in proportion, with warm seductive mids and powerful bass that does not compromise clarity. Muddiness or image-smearing is something that i very much dislike, as well as sibilance and glare. Headphones that sound tonally thin or lean i also tend to dislike.

I've listened to quite a few Grados, from the SR60 to RS-1, PS-1 and MS-Pro. I've always had an appreciation for the RS-1 and PS-1, in that they present a very musical, warm, inviting signature whilst not sacrificing refinement or clarity to any great degree. PS-1 had the added joy of having mind-blowingly good BASS. Like, there are gremlins sitting on my head slamming my ears with steel mallets sort of bass.

But my major beef with Grados in general is the build quality. The assembly just looks cheap, and they seriously lack in comfort compared to my Sennheisers. I admire the RS-1's finesse and the PS-1's brute force, but I still dont own either, mostly because I just cant manage to forget i'm wearing them and concentrate on listening.

So after the Grados i tried the Sony SA5000, for its reputation for speed, detail, and microdynamics. It sure had all three of those in spades, and was comfortable to boot - but lacked tone, heft, and presence. The sound felt lean, and while quality amplification improved that somewhat, they were still a bit too much of a fragile instrument for my taste, especially in the bass dept.

I've tried a few others at various occasions, but not to any extended degree like I did with the Sonys and Grados. But the above two gave me an idea of what I ideally wanted in a headphone - something that borrows somewhat of the Grados warmth, seduction and weight, combined with the Sony's detail and clarity. So far the HD600 is all i've found that comes close to marrying these two traits - its not as detailed as SA5K, and not as seductive in the mids as the RS-1, and certainly its bass is nowhere near PS-1 level, but it does everything I want it to to an acceptable level. A jack of all trades and master of none, so to speak.

I've got an APureSound V3 cable coming for it, as well as a HeadAmp Pico on the way for a change in source/amplification, so time will tell how this will improve the performance of my HD600.

But in the meanwhile, i'm thinking: are there any headphones out there that would excel in every area of my listening preferences? Something that takes PS-1's bass, with SA5K's speed, clarity and imaging, and adds that dash of Grado spice and PraT to the mix? Probably not, or more likely, only non-production headphones or top of the line electrostats.

But still, putting the question out there: what would be my ultimate?

 

[Rednamalas1]

AD2000 might be what you're looking for.

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f13/re...ad2000-199747/

hope that helps

 

[Covenant]

That looks like a really good suggestion, I havent had a chance to hear any of the newer Audio-Technicas, and judging by that review it sounds like AD2000 might have the right balance of bass heft, lush mids, and overall clarity and imaging that i'm after.

Might have to pick up a pair and give them a try

 

[Rednamalas1]

try to listen before you buy though, but they have been impressive so far for me - I haven't found a single genre that it does bad in.

Some people don't like them for being colored - but I suspect they can't stand grados either.

They do have lush mids, for sure.

 

[Covenant]

Another 'phone i want to try again is the HD650. The first time i heard them, i thought them muddy and unclear as opposed to my SA5K. But now I have to wonder if with decent amplification and a good recable if they would clear up sufficiently.

Having a look at some AD2000 impressions on the forum, HD650 bass seems to be regarded as slightly heftier than the AT's, which makes me wonder if i should give the 650's another shot...

 

[MuseMan]

Markl modded D5000?

 

[big-ban]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Covenant /img/forum/go_quote.gif Another 'phone i want to try again is the HD650. The first time i heard them, i thought them muddy and unclear as opposed to my SA5K. But now I have to wonder if with decent amplification and a good recable if they would clear up sufficiently. Having a look at some AD2000 impressions on the forum, HD650 bass seems to be regarded as slightly heftier than the AT's, which makes me wonder if i should give the 650's another shot...

If you ever happen to have the chance, try out some L3000, I think you'd love them, judging from your requirements.
A more secular recommendation would be the AD2000 indeed, so far I agree with Rednamalas1. It's certainly a very clear and crisp headphone with a focus on midrange. The bass is of extremely high quality (I even prefer it to the L3000's bass at times) with a fantastic balance between weight and attack. It's certainly not a very warm headphone, but it's much warmer and more organic sounding than the DT880'03 I've had a while.
If it's any help, the AD2000 are often compared with the RS-1 as being tonally similar. I sort of concur, though I prefer the AD2000 for being more natural overall and having just the right amount of soundstage width and depth - which the RS-1 lack.
The HD650 is a fine headphone too, but it might not be what you're really after. Your impressions coincide with mine by the way, its bass can seem sloppy and "wooly" compared to other headphones, especially the AD2000. The AD2000's bass quality is simply one or two notches higher. I still like the HD650, though I can't find a reason to own one next to the AD2000. The HD650 is a headphone that revolves around euphony and a generally warm signature, which makes it very appealing with Jazz and bass heavy music.
Overall I'd say the AD2000 is the better headphone from a technical perspective. In your case, I really think they are your best bet. If you end up not liking them, the HD650 are still an option for the more relaxed and smoother rendition of music.

 

[Covenant]

Thank you for your comments and reccomendations big-ban

Quote:

Originally Posted by big-ban /img/forum/go_quote.gif If you ever happen to have the chance, try out some L3000, I think you'd love them, judging from your requirements.

I would love to try the L3000, and judging by what i've read of them i'd imagine they'd be perfect too. But sadly, the royal treasury lacks the $2.5k I would need to purchase such headphones, even if they were available.

Quote:

The HD650 is a headphone that revolves around euphony and a generally warm signature, which makes it very appealing with Jazz and bass heavy music. Overall I'd say the AD2000 is the better headphone from a technical perspective. In your case, I really think they are your best bet. If you end up not liking them, the HD650 are still an option for the more relaxed and smoother rendition of music.

For the relaxed and smooth signature i've still got my trusty HD600, which to me sounded far more balanced, refined and 'fun' than the HD650, which was apparent at first listen. I guess i just doubt my memory of the HD650, considering how much my tastes have evolved over time, and makes me want to give them another listen just to verify my previous oppinion.

But then loose and 'wooly' bass would seriously grate on my nerves over time. So i guess i need to listen to those AD2000's

Hm, wonder if any Sydney-Fi'ers have one i can audition...

 

[Rednamalas1]

neither HD600 or HD650 were loose when amped properly - then again, I heard them balanced out of b22

 

[big-ban]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rednamalas1 /img/forum/go_quote.gif neither HD600 or HD650 were loose when amped properly - then again, I heard them balanced out of b22

Well, I'm not a fan of big amps and I know I'm in the minority here if I downplay the benefits of uber expensive amps and/or recabling/reterminating. To me, the differences are subtle at best and I think that any which old amp in the category equal to or upwards of a Corda Aria/AT-HA20 drives them sufficiently well. By the way, I agree that the bass isn't really all that "loose" with the Aria, on the contrary. They sound perfectly fine, including their bass... as long as you don't compare them to faster, punchier and more energetic cans like the AD2K. In that case you'll inevitably see the "flaws" that might not have been plain to see before. As I said, I still like the HD650, but to me, it always comes out a little "wooly" and relaxed in comparison. I can certainly see how people might prefer that extra warmth though. But that's its signature and it's not going to transform completely when driven by another amp.

 

[Almoxil]

I have the AD2000s and love them because of their lush mids, overall detail and clarity...

... but sometimes I wish they had a punchier bass. They're told to be somewhat picky about amping, and I only have my portable Corda Move and my desktop Zero to pair them to, and neither amp changed the sound from my AD2000s that much. I'm not saying the bass on them is bad by any means. It's tight and deep, but I don't feel the bass impact from them to be "visceral" (like Gremlins were slamming my ears

).

 

[big-ban]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Covenant /img/forum/go_quote.gif I would love to try the L3000, and judging by what i've read of them i'd imagine they'd be perfect too. But sadly, the royal treasury lacks the $2.5k I would need to purchase such headphones, even if they were available.

Yeah, that's quite a pile of coins indeed. Took me a while to make the decision to shell out that much money on something that I knew probably wasn't gonna be worth quite the amount. But I'm happy I did it nevertheless, it's all about the experience of having one of those beauties at hand and ears

And of course it's technically the best headphone I own. I've grown to like it very much.

One more alternative just came to my mind. You might wanna eye on the FS forum once in a while for a used ATH-W11JPN. Those are often said to be the "poor man's L3000", having a supposedly warm but fun signature. Never heard those personally and in fact, it's the only AT I'd REALLY like to audition.
For the sake of completeness; there's also the ATH-W10VTG to be considered when options run thin. These are comparable to the AD2000's signature, but have a more pronounced bass and upper midrange region. They're not quite on the AD2000's level of refinement, though they're very involving and musical headphones. The thing is, I could well imagine that the upper midrange spike might be bothersome to some...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Covenant /img/forum/go_quote.gif For the relaxed and smooth signature i've still got my trusty HD600, which to me sounded far more balanced, refined and 'fun' than the HD650, which was apparent at first listen. I guess i just doubt my memory of the HD650, considering how much my tastes have evolved over time, and makes me want to give them another listen just to verify my previous oppinion.

Keep in mind that there are at least two versions of the HD650. I used to own the HD650 version which was noticably more "wooly" than the more recently produced models. Mine was bought in 2004, the others (I think) in 2006/2007. Sennheiser must have changed production at some point, the difference between the models was astonishing when I compared them side by side. My old HD650 had a more and sloppier bass and a slightly more recessed upper midrange. It was like two different headphones altogether. The pads on those two versions were also totally different materials. My old version hat very soft and fluffy pads, the new versions have very hard and sturdy pads. But there must have been changes to the drivers/housing too, the new HD650 was clearly better sounding.
I heard the "new" HD650 for the first time out of a Terratec Phase X24FW / Corda Opera combo last year on a meet and it completely blew me away because it was so much better than what my HD650 sounded like. I didn't know about that difference back then, so I put it down to the source. I ended up buying the X24FW for myself and it turned out that the big difference wasn't due to the X24FW / Opera but to the HD650 itself being different.
Makes you think that when we're discussing all over certain models here, there's actually a certain chance we're unknowingly comparing apples and oranges.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Almoxil I have the AD2000s and love them because of their lush mids, overall detail and clarity... ... but sometimes I wish they had a punchier bass

Speaking in my terminology, the "punch" and attack is there, definitely. At least in my AD2000. What you seem to be missing is overall bass volume. This is largely dependent on the recording because the AD2000 doesn't artificially boost the bass at all. If there's none in the recording, it won't reproduce any. Any the other way round.
Then again you might be a person who prefers some extra bass as compensation for not being able to feel the bass rumble in your belly

Okay, now it's game over for me tonight. Can put out my first novel (composed solely of forum postings) soon if I keep posting prose here at this rate

 

[catscratch]

What you're looking for is a balanced HD650, almost down to the letter. It has very good detail, very good imaging, a massive soundstage, a relatively good tonal balance but with a shift towards warmth and euphony (though this can be changed with cables/overall synergy), and some of the best, hardest hitting, and deepest bass I've ever heard out of a headphone. If clarity, warmth, imaging, bass, and impact are your top priorities I really wouldn't want to go with anything else.

It will cost you, of course. But good sound doesn't usually come cheap. You can get close to this on the cheap, but expect to make some sacrifices. A K340 will do very well, as it will give you the warmth, detail, imaging, and impact, but the "zomg insane bass!!" won't be there with a good sounding pair. The bass will be tight and punchy, but not that deep.

If you want to give up some impact, the Omega 2 will also fit the bill. It doesn't quite have the visceral punch of the balanced HD650 but it still has quite a bit of punch. What it gains over the HD650 is detail, harmonic richness, tonal purity, and speed. It still has heft and it still has slam, and the bass is very good, but a balanced HD650 outdoes it in those areas, as well as sheer soundstage size. On the whole, the O2 is a better headphone, but the balanced HD650 sounds like it might be closer to your preference. However, they are very similar, and I have a strong suspicion that you'll like both. The O2 is electrostatic sound without electrostatic weaknesses, and that is really something.

But if the royal treasury doesn't want to go into deficit spending, then a simple HD600 or HD650 with a Pico is basically what you're after, so you're on the right path already. Anything else would be more of a step sideways than a step up. The K340 is a good alternative but there is so much variety among different pairs, with some pairs sounding like utter crap, that buying one is a bit risky.

 

[Covenant]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Almoxil /img/forum/go_quote.gif It's tight and deep, but I don't feel the bass impact from them to be "visceral" (like Gremlins were slamming my ears ).

The only headphone that i ever thought had Gremlins in it was the PS-1, and while it somehow managed to keep sufficient control over its bass as to not completely unbalance the headphone (remarkably, its presentation seemed to balance rather well), it does somewhat exaggerate the bass present on a recording beyond what's actually there, especially with flats. To me that was a good thing, as when i wanted crazy bass (RE: Metallica black album) it could deliver with gusto.

Quote:

One more alternative just came to my mind. You might wanna eye on the FS forum once in a while for a used ATH-W11JPN. Those are often said to be the "poor man's L3000", having a supposedly warm but fun signature. Never heard those personally and in fact, it's the only AT I'd REALLY like to audition.

The only AT woodie i've ever been able to listen to was the W10LTD, which to me sounded warm and smooth, but rather uninvolving and unresolving. Things which shimmered, sparkled, and snapped with a verve on the SA5K (which was my reference at the time) seemed like they'd taken a hit of lethargy and were just going through the motions on the W10LTD, which i guess gave me a bad first impression of AT woodies.

How much does the W11JPN deviate from this?

Quote:

=For the sake of completeness; there's also the ATH-W10VTG to be considered when options run thin. These are comparable to the AD2000's signature, but have a more pronounced bass and upper midrange region. They're not quite on the AD2000's level of refinement, though they're very involving and musical headphones. The thing is, I could well imagine that the upper midrange spike might be bothersome to some...

RS-1 colouration gets on some people's nerves too, but i found that i really enjoyed these, especially with bowls. Acoustic guitar (which makes up quite a bit of my listening) sounded magical on the RS-1, although it too was a little too reticent in the bass department for my tastes. Without having a chance to hear one there's no real way to tell before buying

Quote:

Keep in mind that there are at least two versions of the HD650. I used to own the HD650 version which was noticably more "wooly" than the more recently produced models. Mine was bought in 2004, the others (I think) in 2006/2007. Sennheiser must have changed production at some point, the difference between the models was astonishing when I compared them side by side.

That sparks my interest. The HD650 i previously listened to would have been around mid-2005, and had apparently been fully burned in, so the owner must have had them for quite some time. So its possible the model i listened to was of this 'early batch'. Makes me even more curious how a current production HD650 would sound as compared to my HD600.

Quote:

On the whole, the O2 is a better headphone, but the balanced HD650 sounds like it might be closer to your preference. However, they are very similar, and I have a strong suspicion that you'll like both.

I have heard an O2, out of the 007t, 717, and KGSS drivers. And I almost did go into deficit with the royal treasury to buy one It definitely was a lovely headphone, with just about the right amount of slam when well burnt-in and after a good hour or so of warm up. Oddly, i preferred the sound out of the 007t compared to both of the solid state drivers, it just seemed to mate very well with the O2's tonal richness that i loved on first audition.

One of the things i'm striving for in my headphone system right now is simplicity, and transportability. The Pico i've got coming will likely be my source and amp for some time to come, with sound customisation coming from cables/headphones and perhaps even EQ. Add that to the fact that without going into debt i simply cannot afford the likes of O2, balanced HD650, or L3000, and most of the top of the line choices are ruled out. So methinks any setup i end up with is going to have shortcomings in one form or other, its just a question of minimising them or accepting hits in areas that i'm comfortable to sacrifice for strengths in others.

I've got something of a battle plan now at least though: AD2000, current production HD650, and possibly a W11JPN or W10VTG remain to be tested to see if any of these will get closer to the 'ideal'.

 

[tfarney]

I'm listening to Richard Thompson's "Front Parlor Ballads" on my HD580s right now. This is mostly voice and acoustic guitar, with a little electric guitar and light percussion. These are all instruments I'm very directly familiar with, and the 580s are perfectly balanced and utterly natural, even at very moderate volume. If there is a softening of transients, I don't miss the edge. They are perfect, for this, and many recordings. But I find that on recordings that are a bit muddy in the middle, the Senns exagerate the effect and push vocals, in particular, too far away. I'd love to find an alternative to hang next to them. Something that has the warm, natural bass of the Senns, maybe a bit more treble speed and detail, but no sizzle...but most importantly, a smooth, but forward midrange.

I'd also like to find it this side of the $500+ ATs. Dennon D2000? Beyer DT770 Pro 80? AKG K601? I can't do Grados, they're very uncomfortable for me.

Tim