[Mecc]

I need some guidance from the great wise ones.

I'm thinking about getting 1200's from http://www.kabusa.com/1200bld.htm

I'm not sure about what upgrades to consider.

audiogon review

Quote:

Origin Live offers a slick-looking conversion kit for the SL-1200Mk2 that allows you to mount a Rega arm like the RB250 (or their modified DJ version of the RB250). The collar is just £39 (plus shipping and import duty), so adding an RB250 can be accomplished for around $300 provided you get a good deal on the arm. But before you go rewiring things or swapping arms, it’s probably best to listen to the stock SL-1200Mk2 first. So here we go…

And from here...

Quote:

The Technics 1200 can be a very good TT. I have a Mark II with the full boat mods from http://www.kabusa.com/frameset.htm?/index.htm I also have a Rega Planar 3 w/ an SME tonearm in my bedroom system. You need to spend thousands to exceed the performance of a KAB modded 1200. Check out the KAB web site, call and speak w/ the proprietor, Kevin Barrett, he's forgotten more about analog than most folks ever know and is one of the good guys in audio. Vinyl is definitely more trouble than CDs. Its not for everyone. I like it.

What is the "full boat mods". Adding all the mods @ kabusa makes the TT about $2000. Edit: Wow, I am dumb. There are different three types of cartridges and two differents clamps to choose from, so it's less than that. I'm looking to spend $1.5-2k for everything I need to start. Though I really want it to be kick ass, something to last a lifetime. Any advice, thoughts, comments? Oh yeah... I'm sure I need other stuff. Shoot, what are they called?

amazon review

Quote:

HOWEVER, the sound quality also significantly depends upon the application the 'table is used for, whether you use a cheap $20 cartridge or the serious high quality type. Is this table going to be used for scratching, regular DJing, or just in-home use? All these factors have to be taken into consideration in getting the most out of the MK5. It is illogical to install an audiophile high end cartridge/stylus normally used for casual listening(jazz, classical, some pop/rock) if you're gonna scratch (vice versa). Simple rule of thumb---you use a DJ needle for club play and scratch and a good to excellent high grade cartridge and stylus for normal playback.

This is tough on deciding on upgrades.

Ok, did more research...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SL-1200

Quote:

* The original SL-1200 was marketed as a hi-fi turntable. * The SL-1200Mk2 improved the motor, shock resistance, added a ground wire, and changed the rotary pitch control to a slider style. This is now considered the baseline model, and is the oldest still in production(others in production are the Mk5 and M5G). * The SL-1210Mk2 is matte black instead of the traditional silver, and supports other voltages for export. * The SL-1200 MK3, released in 1989, matte black finish like the 1210. Gold RCA plugs. Small gold foil "Technics" across the back. * The SL-1200 M3D (1997) adds a quartz lock button which resets pitch to 0 immediately. * The SL-1200 MK4 (1997) has no quartz lock but does have a 78 rpm option (other models only have 33 rpm and 45 rpm), and all the hardware is plated with platinum. * The SL-1200 MK5 increases the anti-skate settings from 0 to 3 to 0 to 6. * The SL-1200 MK5G was launched in Japan on 1 November 2002 (together with the MK5) and is a special 30th anniversary edition of the SL-1200. The difference from the MK5 model is the ability to switch between ±8% and ±16% ranges for pitch adjustment. * Finally there are the limited edition gold finishings of the SL-1200 LTD (1998) and SL-1200 GLD (2004) models, the latter also having a blue instead of the usual white target light. The SL-1200 LTD is based on the Mk2 and the SL-1200 GLD is based on the M5G

Technics SL-1210MK2 Turntable $400, shipped as opposed to $475 @ kabusa.
Technics SL1200MK5 @ $440 shipped as opposed to $535 @ kabusa
Electronics-expo also has the TECSL1210M5G for 518.87 shipped as opposed to $625... which is what I've decided to get.
So it's $1,037.74 for 2 1210m5kgs.

These don't include "KAB Special Edition features of hinged dust cover, audiophile mat and pretest QC inspection." Worth $106.13, $212.26 really? I don't think so...

BUT! If I order an SL-1210M5GSE from Kabusa, get TD-1200 Tonearm Fluid Damper $149.00, PS-1200 Outboard Power Supply( Includes Socket Above ) $250.00, RC-1200 Threaded Record Clamp $149.00, KAB/Ortofon Concorde Pro S40 Integrated Cartridge $229.00, Isonoe™ Machined Sorbothane Spring Isolator Feet $200, I'll save $125 over buying the upgrades seperately. I'm just not sure what upgrades are really worth getting. The Spring Isolator feet for $200 seems rediculous. I've read good reviews about the Tonearm Fluid Damper at audiogon. Nothing on the Outboard Powersupply or other stuff. Anyone know about these other upgrades?

Thanks

 

[massappeal85]

I just started spinning myself, and my friend and my brother have been DJs for awhile. What kind of music do you spin?

My opinion would to not do any of the upgrades. It seems to me the KAB mods, however good they are for playback-only, render the 1200 impractical for DJing.

The Rega mod is interesting and I've been thinking of grabbing another 1200 and an rb250 and using it for playback. You can search on www.wavemusic.com 's forums for opinions of house DJs who've done the mod. I read a person who thought it made no difference, but others seem positive. The rega tonearm restricts you to using only one cart though, without having to mount and align a new cart every time you switch.

What kind of mixer are you using/considering?

 

[Sheynkman]

oh god dont spend so much money on that crap...trust me i know


get regular mk2s...stock everything....get Shure or Orfoton needles if you wanna be fancy but for practicing cheaper stantons will do.

get a decent mixer...remember that a electronic mixer is very different from a battle mixer so choose according to your music style


I like westax mixers.....though as a newbie you will be fine with something simple. 4 channels are nice....if you actually going to use more than 2 sources at a time.

get good DJing cans....not head-fi cans, not good sounding cans....good dj cans....something very big and isolated...that twist and turn..... and have cables on one side.

spend everything else on records...they are pricey and the best ones for electronic music come out in the UK.... though Gramaphone in chicago is an awesome place to get your electronic or hiphop music.


if you plan to use mostly mp3s at a point in time...think about Final Scratch too....though you are better off getting some nice pioneer CDJs that play mp3 files....I dont trust a computer with all that base thumping....unless you want to run ableton live on it .....but then you need 2 people running the show



ehh....im missing tons of tips....but ill check this post for any questions you might have

 

[Sheynkman]

and btw.... gimme a budget and equipment you want...and ill check my friends pricelist for ya.... he is a sells tons of dj gear.


ebay is a bad place to buy....very used ****

be wary of inflated prices....

 

[Mecc]

Ok, I did my homework... I was obsessing over it.

My thoughts are on
2 1210 m5g. $1,040. I know Vestax is another option. I'm set on these m5gs.

1 Rane Ttm 56 Mixer $600-750. People suggest this over the Pioneer DJM 707, even 909 at the forums I'll link in a sec.

OR wait for a RANE TTM 57 which comes out this spring. Around $1000.

2 Shure M44-7 cartridges. around $100 for two.

Which totals around my 2k budget. I'm willing to stretch to 3k for an audiophile setup. Looks like I'll be getting a 3rd TT for playback. Perhaps a beltdriven one instead...

Or another m5g, but with mods.

I found a VERY nice forum with lots of information on DJing and the like
Future Producers

I plan on DJing as a hobby. Prob do some house parties here an there. I've wanted to do it since I was a kid. I love music enough to get into it and I think I have time to dedicate to it.

Quote:

What kind of music do you spin?

Don't have anything, yet. I plan on doing house, funk, soul, breakbeats. Though, I'm sure I'd have to get with the mainstream stuff for house parties. Hip-hop and what not.

Quote:

My opinion would to not do any of the upgrades. It seems to me the KAB mods, however good they are for playback-only, render the 1200 impractical for DJing.

I suppose that makes sense. So get a 3rd table for audiophile use.

Quote:

The Rega mod is interesting and I've been thinking of grabbing another 1200 and an rb250 and using it for playback. You can search on www.wavemusic.com 's forums for opinions of house DJs who've done the mod. I read a person who thought it made no difference, but others seem positive. The rega tonearm restricts you to using only one cart though, without having to mount and align a new cart every time you switch.

Thanks for the link. Ill look into it.

Quote:

oh god dont spend so much money on that crap...trust me i know

I know... but I am awful with money. I have the worst case up upgradetitus there is. (Prob not) For example, I got an emu1212m and the 0404, within 3 months of getting an av710. I'm already thinking about balancing my HD650. Getting a lavry black and a balanced m3 or headroom max balanced. Actually the headroom is out of my range. I'm not that crazy yet. I haven't even finished my m3 yet. So, to avoid getting cheaper **** than wanting to upgrade, I've decided to just get top line stuff. The mk2 i could get for $800, while the m5g for $1040. I'm one of those people that live by the "you get what you pay for" line. But I still look for the best deals and I think I've found them on the m5g.

I'm also aware of the Vinyl vs CD thing. I just don't feel that CD would do it for me.

All that's left is to decide on what 3rd turntable to get. Willing to go upto 1k for a 3rd audiophile TT. And then what records to get. I got a couple stores around here I'll check out. I listen to anything. I dunno what DJ headphones I should look into. What an expensive hobby.

EDIT. Upon further research... i googled m5g rb250 and found Another thread here

Quote:

get a pair of 1200s. the build quality is unbeatable, will fullfill all your DJing needs, and there are a whole slew of audiophile mods that can be done to them. for starters: silver litz tonarm wire. outboard powersupply vibration isolation footers and any expensive tonearm (this will require research as to which ones don't mind being used for DJing purposes) cartridges are your only place where you're completely screwed. you need a needle that tracks well in order to cue up a record, scratch, transform, or pretty much anything that a dj does. audiophile cartridges CANNOT be used for DJing... you can solve that simply by having one NICE cartridge for when you want to listen to music non-interactively as an audiophile, and a pair of DJ cartridges for when you want to play.

So, what I'm really asking/looking for is an audiophile set for a DJ. I'm either getting two m5gs without mods + an audiophile turntable or two m5gs modded. I am now leaning towards the second option because it sounds more practical.

I just read an article about a DJ using the Tone arm dampening fluid dampening system here Looks like the only mod that requires further investigation is the tonearm mod.

another thread.

Quote:

ALL Origin Live and Rega arms are superb for dj use.

Here

hmmm... So my thoughts for now are, two m5g with modded arms,but which modded arms.
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/o.../silver_3.html
Two m5g with rb250 arms will run me about $1,600. But the Origin Live Silver Tonearm is like over $600.

Well, I think I've found the setup I want, but damn. It will be expensive. I'm going to start stock then upgrade as I go along.

 

[Sheynkman]

ok i dont think you read my post right


DO NOT SPEND ALL THAT MONEY

DJ EQUIPMENT IS NOT HIFI EQUIPMENT AND IT CAN NEVER BE

the needles and arms serve a different purpose.

for the money you are aiming to spend...you can get a decent setup with an amp and mediocre speakers dude....come on


you have to decide..... if you are not 100% behind djing.....dont get any dj gear...it will be a waste of money and time...



so here is the plan....if you are not just buying things to have fun with (stop reading here if this is just a fun spending spree)....

go to guitar center ....get a pair of mk2s and a nice multichannel mixer....used is fine.... STOCK arms STOCK everything.

get orfoton cartriges....that is it....hook it up to your home stereo and learn





sorry for getting a bit crazy on ya btw.... i have a few close friends who are passionate about it...and i went though the "i wanna dj" phase too...so i know how it is... it is fun but it is an artform unlike anyother to be able to manipulate music and the dancefloor....i wish the best of luck to you!

 

[massappeal85]

If you want me to explain how the KAB mods, or any of the mods save maybe the Rega and Isonoe feet turn the 1200 detrimental for DJing I can.

I would also ask how much scratching you would be doing, as there are way better sounding carts then the M447 and there could be a better mixer for you then the ttm56.

If I had the money for a set-up designed for mixing with focus on sound quality, I would get: 2 Technics 1200 M3D or later models, a Soundcraft Urei 1620LE rotary mixer, and Audio Technica Dj carts (forget the name, and havn't used them, but have heard good things). If you wanted to scratch, replace the mixer with an Allen and Heath Xone 02, rane ttm56 or ecler nuo 2/3, and the carts with Shure M44Gs.

If you were going to buy new, I would get M3Ds or later models over the Mk2s. If you were going to buy used, Mk2s can be had for cheaper but I've seen few used 1200s with tonearms not abused.

Headphones: senn 280, hd25-1, ultrasone dj headphones. I curently use beyer dt770-80s because they're what I have, but I'd like to get hd25-1s. The beyers are too big and don't provide for one sided monitoring.

Save your money and buy records!

 

[memepool]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheynkman DJ EQUIPMENT IS NOT HIFI EQUIPMENT AND IT CAN NEVER BE the needles and arms serve a different purpose

This is simply not true. The Technics 1200/1210's are basically tweaked 70's Hi-Fi turntables. They are (over) engineered to such a high standard that they make so-called "audiophile" turntables of today like the Rega, Music Hall et all look like junk from Ikea.
What these budget (read sub 1500USD) "audiophile" decks have over the Technics in stock form is the modern tonearm. The Rega RB250 Tonearm is a night and day upgrade over the stock Technics one hence the Origin Live Upgrade. Go for the OL1 tonearm with modded counterweight and external rewiring. These are very sturdy, probably more so than the stock arm and will be upto taking the deck on the road if needed. You can always sell the stock arms to recoup some of your investment. The Silver is not really worth it unless you have money to burn. http://www.tonearm.co.uk/dj-technics-arm.htm

Personally I would go for 1200/1210 mk2s. Why mess with a classic design? the later ones have some interesting features, and the Vestax are pretty nice too but if you are ever going to play out, rememeber that the 1200/1210 mk2 are industry standard the world over and this is therefore what it's best to learn on.

Putting them on a properly isolated surface will give you better sound quality as will isolating them from speakers etc. The Kab feet sound interesting. At home I would get a few suspended wall shelves from a Hi-Fi company like target or the sound organisation. These turn up on ebay frequently.


As far as carts go, Stanton make excellent carts which are widely used in broadcast, archiving and Hi-Fi set ups as well as DJing. Get something decent like the 681EEE. There is a set I think which comes with some high quality stylii for listening at home and interchangeable cheaper ones for scratching.

For monitoring JBL Control 1's are cheap, compact and fairly neutral although I would hook up a better 2nd set for listening. A decent beefy Japanese amp like the NAD is a good compromise which will drive both sets of speakers. Otherwise go for a basic pro amp like those made by Sampson to power your monitors and run a cable from the tape outs on your mixer to your Hi-Fi amp.

In terms of mixers, it's worth spending money on a good one. Go for something with a minimal set of features where they have spent all the money on quality faders and eq rather than "phrase samplers" or other crap. Rane, Allen & Heath and Soundcraft all make professional boards so they sound pretty safe bets.

So far as cans are concerned avoid anything with an overly elaborate construction. They will need to handle getting stepped on and yanked about so again go for simplicity of design and build quality. Personally I have used Sennheiser HD25sp / HD25's for decades. They are practically indestructible, and all the parts are replaceable. I have gone through numerous drivers, pads and cables but they keep on pumping.

 

[Mecc]

Thanks everyone. This is the advice I'm really looking for. Otherwise, I'd seriously waste money everywhere and make bad decisions.

I'm taking a look at the options. Mixing or scratching...

Quote:

If I had the money for a set-up designed for mixing with focus on sound quality, I would get: 2 Technics 1200 M3D or later models, a Soundcraft Urei 1620LE rotary mixer, and Audio Technica Dj carts (forget the name, and havn't used them, but have heard good things). If you wanted to scratch, replace the mixer with an Allen and Heath Xone 02, rane ttm56 or ecler nuo 2/3, and the carts with Shure M44Gs.

WOW. The 1620LE is $1,700... rediculous!... I've read a bit about that mixer on the wave forums, didn't know it was that expensive. It had better be something legendary.

Quote:

If you were going to buy new, I would get M3Ds or later models over the Mk2s.

Now I think i'm getting 2 m5g's, rane ttm56, Shure M44Gs, and the HD25. All those items will put me in the 2k mark. I will research the other mixers and other parts like amp speakers before my final decision. I don't think I'll get the amp and speakers just yet. Later down the road. I need to put alot of thought into this. Like I put around 2k into a gaming rig last summer and I hardly game on it. Though it still serves a good purpose. I don't want to second guess anything I get. I gotta look into the mixing or scratching deal. Is there a setup thats great for both cause i'm not even sure about what I want to do. I really am clueless. I only know that I'm ok with investing all this money into this hobby cause I've had the desire to do it for a long time. I'm also a hardcore bemani player, so yeah, I'm sure I'll be dedicated.

I don't trust buying any used 1210 mk2 on ebay.

What's the counterweight mod?

There's a comparison chart with all the arms and an OL1 with all mods has structural upgrade, High grade internal/ external, high conductivity phono plugs, and slotted arm tubes checked. I don't see anything mentioning counterwieght. I must be missing something

Ok, I'm looking at the shop.

If the silver tone arm can be bought for Export Retail 509.79 (does that mean us dollars?), then that's not as bad as I thought. I think I would go with a silver tone arm over a fully modded OL which is close to that price. I thought the silver tone arms were around 1000 with the armboard. Once again, I must be missing something.

I don't have much time to research right now. I don't want to make any purchases just yet either. I want to figure everything out in two weeks. My budget will be about 2k for 2 TT, mixer, catridges, and headphones. 1k for everything else. Or just 3k for everything really. Keep the recommendations and input coming. I don't have anything set in stone. Just a good idea of what I want. I don't neccesarily care for an audiophile setup at the moment because that will probably be out of my budget. I can upgrade later on. I think that's the best way to appreciate the upgrades.

 

[fewtch]

Quote:

Originally Posted by memepool As far as carts go, Stanton make excellent carts which are widely used in broadcast, archiving and Hi-Fi set ups as well as DJing. Get something decent like the 681EEE. There is a set I think which comes with some high quality stylii for listening at home and interchangeable cheaper ones for scratching.

I like the sound of Stanton carts, but the ones I've tried seem to have pretty bloomy bass. Sounds nice, but not particularly appropriate for classical and acoustic music. I'd recommend something with an advanced stylus shape like Microline, as they track *so* much better.

 

[massappeal85]

The LE went for ~$1300 on ebay when it came out. Check www.djdeals.com and www.agiprodj.com for good prices and service. Considering you were about to spend who knows on the KAB mods for 2 turntables, I don't think its that much.

I think the ttm56 is overkill for a begginer. An Allen and Heath Xone: 02 is almost half the price and will do just as well for sound quality and scratchability. I have one and its awesome. Or save yourself some more and get an Ecler Nuo 2 or 3, which has longer line faders for mixing and good crossfaders.

Rega vs stock 1200 arm: I agree the rega arm is more solid then the stock arm. The stock arm has a removable headshell however that I find useful. You could switch from DJ carts to any audiophile carts wiht only having to zero the tonearm and adjust VTA, whereas with the rega arm your stuck with 1 cartridge without having to remove, install and align a new cart. I've been told the stock rb250 is only a minor improvement, so I would definitely get mods done to the rega.

My advice again is to save your money and buy records! Get stock 1200s, play around with different carts and then see if money towards modded rega arms is really worth it.

 

[memepool]

Origin Live is in England so the prices are UKP not USD (roughly double)
The Silver is therefore 1000USD+, the OL1 in stock form (basically an OEM Rega RB250) is around 200USD. The armboard for technics is about 70USD.
The "structural modification" entails removing the stock plastic counterweight stub and standard weight then fitting a new metal stub with a counterweight which is attached via hex bolt.

This mod improves the rigidity of the arm and removes resonances caused by the basic counterweight assembly lifting the performance of the arm into "superarm" territory. In other words this is widely regarded as the best tonearm you can buy for under 2000USD.

The problem with the standard Technics arm is that it dates from a time when a lot of rubber was used to damp the numerous unecessary joints ( like the removable headshell) in it's construction which in turn introduce a lot of unwanted resonances which suck all the detail out of the music leaving it sounding muddy and indistinct.

If you can, listen to a Rega Planar 3 turntable (costs about 1000USD) this is the standard entry level Hi-Fi turntable and sounds an awful lot better than a stock SL1200. Fitting the Rega arm to the Technics gives you the metronome accuracy of the direct drive motorboard with the detail retrieval of the modern tonearm. A formidable combo which you won't really improve over in Hi-Fi terms without spending at least 2000-3000USD.

You will need a basic speaker set up if you want to learn how to mix. The JBL monitors I mentioned should be possible for around 200USD per pair although at a push you can use an old 2nd hand receiver and a regular Hi-Fi speakers if you have any. The JBL's are much better to mix with however as they are designed as monitors which wont flatter the music rather allow you to hear accurately which is important obviously when you are trying to mix.

The Stanton 681EEE is around 150USD but you can put a more basic stylus on it for DJ work. there is a set which comes in a little miniature flightcase with two carts and four stylii which seems very good value.

 

[skyskraper]

a few things i reccomend to my customers and friends about decks:

1) if you're just starting out, you can get all the advice you want but you won't know what you really want/need until you have a bit of experience behind the decks. each dj is different and will have different nuances that are impossible to predict, you have to experience them.

2) a lot of dj gear is (relatively) low fidelity. particularly mixers. if sound quality is a concern then the best place to spend your money is on the mixer. hell even high end rane mixers still use TL07X op amps and 30c instrument amps. so instead of spending hundreds modifying a turntable for better sound from straight tone arms etc the money would be better spent on a better mixer.

3) get your decks calibrated and setup properly. i take the time to calibrate my decks and the decks of my customers repeatedly over each service period. most people can't calibrate the internals but a good service should be cheap. also what YOU can do and the most common thing that people ignore are the cartridge and tone arm setup combined with a perfectly level playback surface. the technics will come with a stylus alignment guage and the manual will have a guide for balancing and setting up the headshell and tone arm.

4) clean your records! argh it sh1ts me, it's the most oft forgotten things that affects the sound. use a good record cleaning cloth and fluid.

i like the kab fluid damper but it doesnt really suit all dj's styles. i found similar performance gains were gained by using freefloat cushions which are 1/10th of the cost per deck. i personally just levelled out my surface and used two layers of a thick rubber matt, i don't really have a need for the fluid damper or cushions in my setup. if i wasnt about to sell my last pair of 1200's then i'd finish my PSU modification experiments as i suspect that it would make a huge difference for a relatively low price. straight tone arms ala origina and rega i simply cannot justify spending on right now, i dj mainly with cd's and my records get played and recorded at home off a rega p3 so i can dj with cd recordings.

 

[SECT]

I been djing on a pair of 1200 MK2s for over 5 years now, and I got them 3rd hand. These are built like tanks and the only things I've ever done to them include replacing the pitch sliders in each (due to dust and what have you gathering up over the years) and remove the little ball bearing which sits at 0 (on the pitch) which hence removes the 'click' one encounters when mixing on 0.

I'd suggest get a pair of 1210s MK3+, just cause they look cool in black and you can replace all the leds with another color should you want to. Replacing the RCAs would be beneficial obviously, though I don't see the point really (considering all the music was probably mixed and mastered on standard RCAs). Thats money you could spend on vinyl

The 1210s don't have the annoying click at 0 pitch aswell, and the MK3s and up have the pitch reset.

 

[skyskraper]

ive owned black 1200 mk2's, also all the 1210's ive owned and serviced have had the zero "click"

even new out of the box the 1200's need a service and calibration, any tech worth their salt will remove the zero "click" and rebuild the pitch fader for you as part of that service.