Android phone low volume connecting to amp. Advice please?
Jul 26, 2018 at 11:45 AM Thread Starter Post #1 of 15

Spangles

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Hi, I have two issues but hopefully I can solve them both with one product.

Mainly I want to connect my phone to my hi-fi amp using the 3.5mm headphone jack to two rca. I currently have this set up but the volume is so low I have to turn the (Pioneer Precision) amp's volume way up far past what it needs normally and it just doesn't sound right, bass is very weak compared to when using headphones in the phone.

For instance I have a TV connected via headphone jack to rca in the same amp and I don't need to turn the volume up past CD player level.

I am using the Line In input for the phone.

What is the best way to boost the volume? I don't need a dac as my ears can't tell the difference in sound when I've used one before so I think I need a small amp but not a portable one to carry outside. My earphones are perfect in the phone.

I also have a TV in the bedroom and wish to get a better sound for my Fidelio headphones. At the moment I do not have a volume issue with them as they are connected to the TV but I would like a better sound if possible. Maybe I need an amp with an optical input for that?

Could I buy one product to solve both issues or would I be better off buying two different solutions?

I don't want anything bigger than 20 cms wide.

I would really appreciate any advice or even a link to a thread already discussing this topic.

I tried searching but couldn't find any.

Thanks.
 
Jul 27, 2018 at 1:56 AM Post #3 of 15
For instance I have a TV connected via headphone jack to rca in the same amp and I don't need to turn the volume up past CD player level.
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What is the best way to boost the volume? I don't need a dac as my ears can't tell the difference in sound when I've used one before so I think I need a small amp but not a portable one to carry outside. My earphones are perfect in the phone.

You should probably still just get a DAC but make sure it has a 2V line output. Your ears might not be able to tell the difference between DAC chips themselves but in this case where you can tell the difference between the CDP and the phone having a same level of output voltage will help. An amp can do that but your main problem is that the first amp will likely add noise, which is unavoidable from the amplification process, and then your integrated amplifier will receive a signal that has that noise in there and then amplify that along with everything else while adding its own noise. Both individually aren't a problem but together they can be, so a DAC will be safer as long as it has a 2V line output and is compatible with USB input from your phone.
 
Jul 27, 2018 at 2:45 PM Post #4 of 15
Hi ProtegeManiac,

thanks very much for replying with great advice. I would never have known about that problem.

What should I be looking for in the specifications of a DAC to find out if it has a 2v Line Output?

I was looking at the Fuller 2 and it has three things mentioning volts:

THD: 0.003%, 20Hz-20KHz, at 1V RMS

SNR: 105db, A-weighted, referenced to 1V RMS

Gain: 1.7 (4.6db)

I'm having a wild guess that it's the Gain that is what I should be looking at?

Do you think if I bought a really cheap DAC to plug into the Magni 3 that would do the trick? Or do I need a good DAC to match the pre-amp?

Thanks again for your advice.
 
Jul 27, 2018 at 3:41 PM Post #5 of 15
thanks very much for replying with great advice. I would never have known about that problem.

What should I be looking for in the specifications of a DAC to find out if it has a 2v Line Output?

Uhhh...that it has 2V line output. It's going to be right there.



I was looking at the Fuller 2 and it has three things mentioning volts:

THD: 0.003%, 20Hz-20KHz, at 1V RMS

SNR: 105db, A-weighted, referenced to 1V RMS

Gain: 1.7 (4.6db)

They put it on the description and not listed in the specs page for some reason.


I'm having a wild guess that it's the Gain that is what I should be looking at?

Gain is for the preamp/headphone amp, not the DAC line output. Just look for one with a 2V or higher output. Note that 2V is Sony Redbook Standard.


Do you think if I bought a really cheap DAC to plug into the Magni 3 that would do the trick? Or do I need a good DAC to match the pre-amp?

If it lists the specs and is compatible with your phone then sure.

Problem is even good quality DACs that cost a bit more can fail at either. Modi2 doesn't work on most smartphones since it's dependent on bus power; Modi2 and Modi2 Uber have 1.5V on the line output; and only the Multibit version has 2V.

The ODAC Rev B has 2V though but it's dependent on bus power. if it doesn't get a full 5V 500mA it won't do 2V, if it even works at all.

If you want to gamble with cheaper DACs than these you can but note that it will be a gamble. You might as well just use the Modi Multibit and have SPDIF inputs for your CDP in case you want to use that with it, or the Fulla2 since it has a separate USB port for power that you can hook up to a USB charger.
 

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Jul 27, 2018 at 4:49 PM Post #6 of 15
Thanks again ProtegeManiac, I really appreciate you taking the time to help me out.

Yeah it is strange it's not mentioned in the specs but I think I know what you mean now.

I was looking at a DAC called the SMSL M3 USB Powered Audio Decoder. In the specs it says Output Levels 1.9v rms. I assume this is relating to the rca stereo outputs?

It is powered by USB and has a micro input for that which I'm sure could be plugged into a charger like the Fuller as you said.

It also has a good range of inputs, Micro USB, Coaxial (SPDIF I think) and Optical.

I was thinking I could just plug this straight into my hi-fi amp and the phone would sound better at a normal volume? Plus I could plug the TV in using the Optical input instead of straight to the amp?

I could use the Magni 3 as a headphone amp using the headphone out socket on my TV in the bedroom?

It's strange I don't notice the difference in DACs because I noticed a huge difference when comparing a CD with an SACD of the same album. The SACD had so much more information musically, I was very surprised, the songs sounded almost like a different genre in a very good way.
 
Jul 27, 2018 at 11:12 PM Post #7 of 15
I was looking at a DAC called the SMSL M3 USB Powered Audio Decoder. In the specs it says Output Levels 1.9v rms. I assume this is relating to the rca stereo outputs?

Most likely, yes. But confirm with the dealer/manufacturer that it is a fixed voltage line out instead of a variable voltage output controlled by its preamp stage.


It is powered by USB and has a micro input for that which I'm sure could be plugged into a charger like the Fuller as you said.

Yes that's how it works.

Oh and "Fulla" isn't for "Fuller," it's how some people pronounce "Full of," ie, a word play on "full of Schiit." It's like how Americans particularly singers pronounce "_ould have" as "_ould've" and now people all over the world including Americans are saying ""_ould of," which doesn't even make sense but that's just one of the ways that popular music shapes people's minds (same way people think you always shoot guns sideways as opposed to how this was a way for rappers to shoot out a car window spraying bullets without really aiming while hiding their faces).


It also has a good range of inputs, Micro USB, Coaxial (SPDIF I think) and Optical.

I was thinking I could just plug this straight into my hi-fi amp and the phone would sound better at a normal volume? Plus I could plug the TV in using the Optical input instead of straight to the amp?

Yes you can do all that. Also as long as the 1.9V is accurate then yes it will be neglible difference vs the 2V on your CDP.


I could use the Magni 3 as a headphone amp using the headphone out socket on my TV in the bedroom?

I wouldn't really do that. You'd have a potentially noisy signal going into the Magni. Why not just move the SMSL M3 there? Even without the Magni if you'll just do low volume night time listening?


It's strange I don't notice the difference in DACs because I noticed a huge difference when comparing a CD with an SACD of the same album. The SACD had so much more information musically, I was very surprised, the songs sounded almost like a different genre in a very good way.

Well what exactly were you comparing them through? If you just used a regular PCM DAC and a regular CDP, then the CDP can only read the CD layer. If you heard a difference it could be due to errors or noise. Even if you used an SACDP but you output via toslink to the same DAC, the SACDP could be converting the signal to PCM considering SPDIF can't handle the bandwidth of SACD and even 32bit audio, so again there could be quantization errors having to do that conversion on the fly.

At the same time, even if you tried both through an SACDP, if the SACD was from a better master or remaster of the album, then it will sound better. The thing is, the same thing is true even if both were CD or any PCM format. The real advantage with SACD (and vinyl) is that you're more likely to get albums with proper mastering than the high gain Loudness War draftees on other formats.

And then there's the variance in how the analogue signal is handled. When you compare two properly designed DACs, ie, 2V with very low noise and distortion, and practically the same channel separation, there is usually no audible difference. Add one DAC with lower output voltage or noisier signal (which can be due to oversampling or upsampling) or crap channel separation and then you'd start hearing some differences.
 
Jul 28, 2018 at 1:21 PM Post #8 of 15
Hi ProtegeManiac,

thanks. I checked Amazon answers for any queries regarding voltage but there were none so I tried to post a question but apparently I don't have enough community points or something.

I searched online for SMSL and although there is a web site listed the page doesn't exist so that's a bit strange.

I didn't realise the M3 was also an amp, I just searched the DAC section of Amazon. So it would be good if I could use it for both phone and headphones in bedroom. I need to use headphones in the bedroom at night due to poor sound insulation.

I decided to look for questions underneath the SMSL Sanskrit 6th on Amazon UK as that is just a DAC but it has a 2Vrms Output Level:

Question:
Does this dac work with windows 10?
Answer:
Yes. You just need to match your digital output to the input on the Sanskrit. It's not a line amp.

There is one more answer where the person just says "Works fine on Windows 10 for me."

I find this confusing. I understand it's not a line amp as it's just a DAC but how do you match the digital output of the source? I used to own an EMU 0404 and I could choose 16 bit or 24 bit 96khz etc, is that what the person is referring to? I don't see how that could be done on a TV or Smartphone even though the specs say it works with Android 4.0 and above.

The thing is, it doesn't have a volume control so I'm assuming that means the 2Vrms is fixed? There is one button on the front to Select input. This is all completely new to me.

This is a review on the US Amazon site:

Fantastic DAC. The specs for the price on this are ridiculous, and it performs equally well. It does have a rather high output @ 2.0 Vrms, so it might be above the maximum input voltage of some headphone amps, such as the O2 amp on high gain which can cause clipping. Keeping your volume below 80% or so will prevent this from being an issue, however.

I've never had to turn my volume up past 20% on my hi-fi amp apart from connecting the phone via headphone jack and that's about 60/70% to get same volume though with weak sound.

Am I correct in thinking a DAC is the thing that will reduce noise so if I want to hook up my phone to my main hi-fi amp it would be better to have DAC only as a DAC with Amp would create unwanted noise for the chain? Sorry, this noise thing is new to me too.

It's very difficult to find a DAC or DAC/AMP that has the two inputs I would like, usb and optical along with stereo rca outputs. The SMSL products are the only ones I can see that are budget friendly.

Don't know why I spelt Fulla wrong. I didn't know that about holding the gun sideways, I thought directors made actors do it because it looked cool. Interesting it was originally a drive by technique.

Regarding the SACD situation, I've only owned a cheap portable FiiO DAC for the phone which had 3 settings for output level but it seemed to make my phone sound worse. My friend owns a Naim DAC and he swears that it made a big difference in sound to his CD player but personally I can't tell the difference.

The CD in question was the Police's Synchronicity so it was hardly a Linn Records level recording. I don't think it was part of the Loudness Wars which I did read about a couple years ago and it's just getting bizarre how much record companies are asking producers to raise the volume on recordings so they sound better over the radio? On very good equipment it apparently sounds terrible.

I used to own a Pioneer Precision CD player which was well regarded in the budget end of the market but at the same time I owned a Cambridge Audio Universal Player which was the bottom end of their range so it wasn't sophisticated.

However when I compared the CD played on the much higher spec CD Player to the SACD on the low end Cambridge the sound was very different. I think both albums were remastered.

Just for instance, I didn't realise how 'dub' sounding the bass on Wrapped Around Your Finger is (although that might make dub fans frown sorry).

Every Breath You Take had a very 'Country' feel to the phrasing of the vocals.

Both much better insights to the songs I thought and the CD just didn't produce them.

It is possible the DAC on the Cambridge was much better as it was made years later than the Pioneer. The Pioneer was tweaked by Tom Evans though so the electronics were quite high grade for that price range.

This post is very long. You don't need to reply because it seems the more you tell me the more questions I have....

Thanks again though.

Just to add, my main interest is getting the phone working with my hi-fi in the best way possible. I can think about the bedroom headphone situation later if I can't find a single solution for both.

Just wish the manufacturers would specify the nature of the voltage output.
 
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Jul 28, 2018 at 11:39 PM Post #9 of 15
I didn't realise the M3 was also an amp, I just searched the DAC section of Amazon. So it would be good if I could use it for both phone and headphones in bedroom. I need to use headphones in the bedroom at night due to poor sound insulation.

Yes the M3 can work that way. If anything I doubt it works as well as the Magni but otherwise for low level listening it should work fine.


I decided to look for questions underneath the SMSL Sanskrit 6th on Amazon UK as that is just a DAC but it has a 2Vrms Output Level:

Question:
Does this dac work with windows 10?
Answer:
Yes. You just need to match your digital output to the input on the Sanskrit. It's not a line amp.

There is one more answer where the person just says "Works fine on Windows 10 for me."

I find this confusing. I understand it's not a line amp as it's just a DAC but how do you match the digital output of the source? I used to own an EMU 0404 and I could choose 16 bit or 24 bit 96khz etc, is that what the person is referring to? I don't see how that could be done on a TV or Smartphone even though the specs say it works with Android 4.0 and above.

The thing is, it doesn't have a volume control so I'm assuming that means the 2Vrms is fixed? There is one button on the front to Select input. This is all completely new to me.

That line is kind of confusing, You just set Windows to output at the resolution of the file being played.

If anything what it probably means is connect it to the digital inputs and then select that input on the Sanskrit.


This is a review on the US Amazon site:

Fantastic DAC. The specs for the price on this are ridiculous, and it performs equally well. It does have a rather high output @ 2.0 Vrms, so it might be above the maximum input voltage of some headphone amps, such as the O2 amp on high gain which can cause clipping. Keeping your volume below 80% or so will prevent this from being an issue, however.

I've never had to turn my volume up past 20% on my hi-fi amp apart from connecting the phone via headphone jack and that's about 60/70% to get same volume though with weak sound.

Am I correct in thinking a DAC is the thing that will reduce noise so if I want to hook up my phone to my main hi-fi amp it would be better to have DAC only as a DAC with Amp would create unwanted noise for the chain? Sorry, this noise thing is new to me too

A DAC will have less noise than using a headphone amp to connect as a line input, whether it's an actual headphone amp circuit or using the compromise headphone driver and line output on a smartphone audio chip.

However don't confuse a one-box headphone amp and DAC - as long as it has a line or preamp output (whichever one you need) - as the same thing as using the headphone amp output for the same purpose. The former have those other outputs that bypass the amp circuit.


It's very difficult to find a DAC or DAC/AMP that has the two inputs I would like, usb and optical along with stereo rca outputs. The SMSL products are the only ones I can see that are budget friendly.

It tends to make the boards more complex and thus production can be more expensive than if it just had either SPDIF or just USB (although originally USB cost more due to programming the software but generic OS USB audio software has taken over by this point for most USB receiver chips).


Regarding the SACD situation, I've only owned a cheap portable FiiO DAC for the phone which had 3 settings for output level but it seemed to make my phone sound worse. My friend owns a Naim DAC and he swears that it made a big difference in sound to his CD player but personally I can't tell the difference.

Wait..so you couldn't actually hear the difference. Was it even a proper SACD set up, because DSD and SACD use very different DAC chips. Regular PCM use 16bit to 24bit chips; DSD and SACD use 1bit chips. Hybrid 32bit chips that can run SACD without converting them to PCM via a DSP first only came out within the last few years.


The CD in question was the Police's Synchronicity so it was hardly a Linn Records level recording. I don't think it was part of the Loudness Wars which I did read about a couple years ago and it's just getting bizarre how much record companies are asking producers to raise the volume on recordings so they sound better over the radio? On very good equipment it apparently sounds terrible.

It does but for everyone who listened only to the horrible masters and then upgraded hardware, they'll hear an improvement due to that, and won't realize how bad it is until they listen to the same song but one copy is a properly mastered one.


I used to own a Pioneer Precision CD player which was well regarded in the budget end of the market but at the same time I owned a Cambridge Audio Universal Player which was the bottom end of their range so it wasn't sophisticated.

However when I compared the CD played on the much higher spec CD Player to the SACD on the low end Cambridge the sound was very different. I think both albums were remastered.

Just for instance, I didn't realise how 'dub' sounding the bass on Wrapped Around Your Finger is (although that might make dub fans frown sorry).

Every Breath You Take had a very 'Country' feel to the phrasing of the vocals.

Both much better insights to the songs I thought and the CD just didn't produce them.

It is possible the DAC on the Cambridge was much better as it was made years later than the Pioneer. The Pioneer was tweaked by Tom Evans though so the electronics were quite high grade for that price range.

The universal disc player very likely uses a PCM 24bit DAC so it can decode DVDs. It just happens to read SACD but it won't use a real DSD specific DAC - it converts it to PCM and then runs it through its 24bit PCM DAC.

In short if you're hearing differences it would have a lot more to do with the better mastering on the SACD. Conversely, it could be due to the conversion process, which doesn't always leave errors in terms of noise artifacts that you can easily identify as noise. It's like how upsampling used to be a thing because the top end was smoother, until it turned out that it had a lot more to do with how the signal picked up noise due to the upasampling process.


Just to add, my main interest is getting the phone working with my hi-fi in the best way possible. I can think about the bedroom headphone situation later if I can't find a single solution for both.

I've been using this rig mostly (just with newer smartphones and less form fitting docks), although this doesn't integrate with other systems, ie the DAC-HPamp only has output for the headphones.
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Just wish the manufacturers would specify the nature of the voltage output.

Chances are most low end stuff don't; some upper tier stuff don't or outright lie but instead of a lower voltage they do slightly higher than 2V. Then when someone swaps out the DAC for example they'll notice it sounds "better" without getting suspicious as to how much higher the line voltage is.
 
Jul 30, 2018 at 2:32 PM Post #10 of 15
Hi ProtegeManiac,

Sorry for the late reply, thanks again for your further advice.

That DAC Headphone Amp you have looks beautiful. I don't know what make or model it is but I would wager it cost more than all the hi-fi I've ever purchased.

I've read that the HD600s are incredible too. They look open back which from my limited experience is the best type. I once owned Goldring DR150s and I loved them.

Your phone would have a decent DAC in it too compared to most I've read as Samsung are quite serious about audio these days. Apparently their soundbars are up there with the best.

The Cambridge Audio Universal Player I owned was actually a dvd player, the DVD89 which I forgot about because it was mainly for music I bought it for although it did have DivX playback (remember that) which I liked because those were the download days. It was released in 2008 and it got a great review in TechRadar. The DAC it used was the Crystal CS4360 which was apparently better for audio than video.

I was thinking my view on the SACD Police album might have been contradictory. It's possible that I knew that album very well so noticed any slight changes in it I wouldn't have in other albums. I bought Neil Young's Harvest on DVD Audio because that format has/had an ever higher range than SACD. However I think it was also best played in a surround sound set up and I didn't notice a difference with that.

I ended up selling the DVD89, put all my CDs, SACDs, DVD Audio onto my hard drive because I was disappointed with the amount of material available on SACD/DVD Audio plus I was more excited about the possibilities of digital recording advancing so much that no hardware media would be able to keep up so everyone would eventually play all audio via their computer because of the crazy bit rates and hhz that can achieve. That turned out disappointing as well because only Tidal seems serious about delivering high quality streams.

I do understand the myriad complexities with selling/streaming high quality production but I was reading about Dolby Atmos the other night and it blew me away thinking about what serious artists/producers could achieve with it. Eddie Kramer and Jimi Hendrix done some remarkable things on Electric Ladyland. There is a fascinating documentary where Kramer talks about Hendrix imagining a sound and Kramer trying to reproduce it, often quite successfully.

Also people say there is no point creating such high quality because it's only between the ages of 18-25 that we can hear the full spectrum of 20hz-20,000hz. I understand the gradual loss of high pitch sounds but I think people are confusing it with quality of sound. I only have a 25hz-13,000hz range but I can still differentiate quality. There was a reviewer on Amazon who said the SMSL M3 sounded as good as the Chord Mojo but he thinks that's because he's over 50. I don't think that would be a reason because if it was then there would be no audiophiles over the age of 25.

I just seen a web store called HDTracks in the UK that sells quite a lot of albums at 24/96 but I have no idea how well they have been remastered. They are quite expensive, £33 mostly which would be good if they were well done. Neil Young, widely known as an audiophile sells HQ albums from his own site.

I digress. I don't think I can achieve what I want to with the Fidelio headphones because I don't have the room in the bedroom for a full sized digital amplifier similar in quality to the Pioneer.

What I want is something close so....

If you were buying budget equipment for this situation would you buy the SMSL Sanskrit DAC and Magni 3 or the SMSL M3 and Magni 3 to achieve the best overall sound? Or would you spend double and buy the Schiit Jotunheim? I'm just wondering if that would mean anything close to double the sound. That's the thing about online shopping, it's difficult to listen to before buying. There are very few high street hi-fi stores left.

Oh, talking about Dolby Atmos, the reason I was reading about it is because it's an app on my phone which has always puzzled me because a phone can only output stereo. Anyway, literature says it can mimick the sound a little bit with the right hardware. I don't know if my phone has the hardware because it's a budget Moto E4 Plus. I did turn Atmos on for the first time yesterday and was surprised at the increase in volume. I mean I had to turn my phone's volume down half way. I thought this might be a solution to the hi-fi problem but I connected it to the Pioneer but it was dreadful. The Atmos app has 4 'intelligent equalisers' for Music. They are definitely not intelligent. The only one that sounded half decent was 'Rich' but even that sacrificed a lot of bass to focus on the central and treble frequencies. 'Open' sacrificed all the upper frequencies for a damp squid of bass sound. 'Focused' sounded like it added the cosmic background radiation. 'Manual' didn't seem to allow manual changing as every time I pushed a frequency up it just fell back down to central.

So I doubt I have the hardware and I don't want any colour added to the sound anyway.

I tried listening to the song on your phone, Nightwish, but I think that would require the standard of equipment you have to reproduce that massive soundstage. It sounded very compressed on my phone but I know for sure it wasn't recorded like that.

Why is there that steel plate on top of your amp? Is that for cooling?

Did you make that headphone cable? Looks quite sophisticated.

I do go on a tangent sorry.

Thanks again for your help and time.
 
Jul 31, 2018 at 12:24 PM Post #11 of 15
That DAC Headphone Amp you have looks beautiful. I don't know what make or model it is but I would wager it cost more than all the hi-fi I've ever purchased.

Not as expensive as it looks, plus I got it used. Meier stopped using this Shanling chassis too (then again, so did Shanling) and restructured their price brackets. This is roughly equivalent to the Jazz than the Classic, so while not exact, you could infer the chassis costs around $150. Ouch. Double ouch for the tiny nick it now has on the top that should be too tiny to see but I'm OC about these things.


I've read that the HD600s are incredible too. They look open back which from my limited experience is the best type. I once owned Goldring DR150s and I loved them.

Not necessarily although for the most part they'd be easier to design since the driver design just needs to be open air and then the effect of the chamber behind it doesn't need to be accounted for anymore.


Your phone would have a decent DAC in it too compared to most I've read as Samsung are quite serious about audio these days. Apparently their soundbars are up there with the best.

The S3 didn't come with the dock unlike my S1, which had the line out port (it had one but I wasn't gonna blow $45 on it). Even then mine are T-Mobile units and they have different DACs than the other versions. The S phones I had all sucked next to the Note series. My S7 is the best so far (dealt with noise initially - it can't charge and play music simultaneously) but the Note 4 still trumps all the S phones. Haven't really used my S9+ other than to test it; just got it practically free from our family plan and I tend to never be excited over the newest stuff unless whatever I'm using broke (or was stolen, like my Note3).


The Cambridge Audio Universal Player I owned was actually a dvd player, the DVD89 which I forgot about because it was mainly for music I bought it for although it did have DivX playback (remember that) which I liked because those were the download days. It was released in 2008 and it got a great review in TechRadar. The DAC it used was the Crystal CS4360 which was apparently better for audio than video.

It was a good DAC for any kind of audio (it's just that for video+audio you'd very likely output digital 5.1 to a receiver anyway so it won't be used). It's just that it isn't a real DSD-compatible DAC. Like all universal players, even Sonys, they all converted to PCM first.


I was thinking my view on the SACD Police album might have been contradictory. It's possible that I knew that album very well so noticed any slight changes in it I wouldn't have in other albums. I bought Neil Young's Harvest on DVD Audio because that format has/had an ever higher range than SACD. However I think it was also best played in a surround sound set up and I didn't notice a difference with that.

Either it didn't actually play differently on surround or you don't really notice imaging, even when surround screwed it up (ie sometimes instead of just putting up crowd sounds on the surrounds they actually put the band up there, which surrounds the listener with the wrong sound, since the band is in front, you're not sitting in the middle of the stage).


I ended up selling the DVD89, put all my CDs, SACDs, DVD Audio onto my hard drive because I was disappointed with the amount of material available on SACD/DVD Audio plus I was more excited about the possibilities of digital recording advancing so much that no hardware media would be able to keep up so everyone would eventually play all audio via their computer because of the crazy bit rates and hhz that can achieve. That turned out disappointing as well because only Tidal seems serious about delivering high quality streams.

The thing is, mastering quality has more impact than the format. if and when the same master sounds different on two formats, and especially SACD/DSD vs anything, it's because a direct comparison wasn't really possible then - either universal players converted DSD/SACD to PCM or at best you use only an SACD player to play both layers.

Add to that how large the files are and how not everyone has absolutely unlimited data, then on top of that, how small the audiophile market is.


I do understand the myriad complexities with selling/streaming high quality production but I was reading about Dolby Atmos the other night and it blew me away thinking about what serious artists/producers could achieve with it. Eddie Kramer and Jimi Hendrix done some remarkable things on Electric Ladyland. There is a fascinating documentary where Kramer talks about Hendrix imagining a sound and Kramer trying to reproduce it, often quite successfully.

That's because Atmos isn't just mere surround on two planes. It's synonymous with "ATMOSphere," ie, it factors in height. Watch a horror flick where a girl looks up from the toilet to see a nun floating above the bathroom stalls and her cackling will very clearly sound like it's coming from above you. Same way Iron Man or Iceman (Val Kilmer, not the X-Men character) will sound like they zoomed above you, which before would be a thing only if all your speakers were positioned up on the ceiling (like everybody with Bose Lifestyle systems).

Same thing with music mastered specifically for playback on a true Atmos system but personally I'd do away with the gimmicks and just go with a proper 2ch speaker system.


Also people say there is no point creating such high quality because it's only between the ages of 18-25 that we can hear the full spectrum of 20hz-20,000hz. I understand the gradual loss of high pitch sounds but I think people are confusing it with quality of sound. I only have a 25hz-13,000hz range but I can still differentiate quality. There was a reviewer on Amazon who said the SMSL M3 sounded as good as the Chord Mojo but he thinks that's because he's over 50. I don't think that would be a reason because if it was then there would be no audiophiles over the age of 25.

That idea is kind of more related to DSD which had ridiculously high oversampling rates as well as response range.

The problem with that, DSD or not, is that nobody even hears past 25,000hz. No human anyway. The only thing that very high frequencies really do is affect or attest to the quality. In the first, like with the upsampling noise before, it just gets in there playing in the background affecting how the drivers sound. The second is more of how some gear, but particularly the speakers and electrostatic headphones, having a far extended response can often speak to its quality, in that if the transducer can move fast enough to reproduce those extremely high frequencies, it tends to mean they will also be smoother at the top end. Look at Sonus Fabers, any speakers that use electrostatic diaphragms or ribbon tweeters, or heck, Stax. It's overused for headphones in general that past electrostats it doesn't mean anything at all outside of how smooth Stax headphones are. Regardless it's at best a correlation, not a direct causation.

Also regardless of the high frequency limit if one can hear the differences in how the sound plays out in what range one can hear then of course the playback system will matter, unlike for a child with full frequency hearing who can't tell G from D much less a Sonus Faber from a JVC boombox (or a dog who likely wouldn't care about details).


I just seen a web store called HDTracks in the UK that sells quite a lot of albums at 24/96 but I have no idea how well they have been remastered. They are quite expensive, £33 mostly which would be good if they were well done. Neil Young, widely known as an audiophile sells HQ albums from his own site.

You can't unless you Google and check what other people have to say about the particular master being sold on sites like those, though to be fair, for the most part these are usually better than some CD copies for the artists who aren't expected to really have them rotate on radio. Not because the CD copy is 16/44.1, but because they don't really need to have a Loudness War competitor that would sound good to the average listener listening to satellite radio that came with their car. HDTracks used to sell 16/44.1 too but basically dropped the option since people go to HDTracks to get them in 24/96 or 24/88, and even back when 24/96 DACs weren't common, people can just download the 24/96 track and convert it to 16/44.1 at home and keep the high res master copy archived. The conversion would not have a high risk of artifacts and on top of that wouldn't use computing resources (or battery life) converting it on the fly every time the files are played.


I digress. I don't think I can achieve what I want to with the Fidelio headphones because I don't have the room in the bedroom for a full sized digital amplifier similar in quality to the Pioneer.

What I want is something close so....

If you were buying budget equipment for this situation would you buy the SMSL Sanskrit DAC and Magni 3 or the SMSL M3 and Magni 3 to achieve the best overall sound? Or would you spend double and buy the Schiit Jotunheim? I'm just wondering if that would mean anything close to double the sound. That's the thing about online shopping, it's difficult to listen to before buying.

Well you can drop the Jotunheim because even the Magni3 has more than enough power for any of the Fidelio headphones, and the Jotunheim isn't going to have any other advantage like running pure Class A or having a different disortion pattern (although it's the older Magni versions that got sharper when pushed; either nobody has really pushed the Magni3 given its high output level or it really doesn't distort that way). If anything I'd pick the Asgard over the Magni3 (even with its lower power output) for that.

Chances are though you might not even get the Fidelios to an output level that would really stress the M3. It would have to be a really craptastic amp to just have an obviously bad sound vs the Magni3 or even the Asgard.


There are very few high street hi-fi stores left.

Upside is that for those who live in places where online dealers or manufacturers who try to avoid middlemen (like Schiit in North America) would just make it easier to return an item while having a wider selection than brick and mortar stores.

Of course, it's not like they're totally going away. Very high end stuff still needs dealers or at least direct delivery and installation. In the case of something like the Focal Grande Utopia for example the dealer has to deliver them and then haul them into the house, because you might as well get that service if you're paying upwards of $20,000 for the speakers.

You're also paying for the dealers' worker's comp insurance.
FOCAL-Utopia-III-Grande-EM-e1337103329799.jpg


Oh, talking about Dolby Atmos, the reason I was reading about it is because it's an app on my phone which has always puzzled me because a phone can only output stereo. Anyway, literature says it can mimick the sound a little bit with the right hardware. I don't know if my phone has the hardware because it's a budget Moto E4 Plus. I did turn Atmos on for the first time yesterday and was surprised at the increase in volume. I mean I had to turn my phone's volume down half way. I thought this might be a solution to the hi-fi problem but I connected it to the Pioneer but it was dreadful. The Atmos app has 4 'intelligent equalisers' for Music. They are definitely not intelligent. The only one that sounded half decent was 'Rich' but even that sacrificed a lot of bass to focus on the central and treble frequencies. 'Open' sacrificed all the upper frequencies for a damp squid of bass sound. 'Focused' sounded like it added the cosmic background radiation. 'Manual' didn't seem to allow manual changing as every time I pushed a frequency up it just fell back down to central.

So I doubt I have the hardware and I don't want any colour added to the sound anyway.

It's a DSP that tries to add something like room reverb to simulate Atmos, the same way Virtual Surround is used on gaming soundcards so somebody playing on headphones but can't use speakers (ex - paranoid idiot neighbor might call cops when he hears gunfire) so there's some sense of depth and more accurate directionality in gaming audio (and people who watch movies on their PCs), although in that one there's also some cross filtering going on to get past the hard pan left-center-hard pan right tendency of a headphone system. I have no idea what Atmos simulation counts for the right downstream components though but chances are it might also be intended for a surround system where the Android still outputs 5.1 to an HT receiver but then the Atmos simulator simulates the ambient height speakers.


I tried listening to the song on your phone, Nightwish, but I think that would require the standard of equipment you have to reproduce that massive soundstage. It sounded very compressed on my phone but I know for sure it wasn't recorded like that.

It's not really massive in the same way a Beethoven symphony would be recorded as a massive soundstage but you can't have a too narrow, hard pan Left-Center-hard pan Right with everything forward or inside the head image as on most headphone systems. The amp also has built in Crossfeed in case I use a source that doesn't have it, but for locally stored FLAC on my phone I just use Neutron Music Player's variable Crossfeed. It basically makes for a slightly deeper image (more apparent on something like a K702 though) but ultimately the biggest benefit which some think is a problem is that the cymbals aren't right by my ears. They're closer to the center, which in a real stage would be the case since the drummer doesn't have 10ft long arms.


Why is there that steel plate on top of your amp? Is that for cooling?

Dust protection. There's a massive vent over the output stage. Plate stops dust falling in but doesn't really impede convection.


Did you make that headphone cable? Looks quite sophisticated.

Local DIY-er made it for me. Nothing sophisticated - just Kimber conductors he got cheap and then braided. Color coding just makes it easier to track left and right channels (then he marks which ones are the same ends of each so it's easier to sort out - from +).
 
Aug 2, 2018 at 3:45 PM Post #12 of 15
Hi ProtegeManiac,

thanks again for the detailed reply.

I had a Google search for your amp but couldn't find it. I find a review of the Jazz and Jazz ff. It was a very positive review and that didn't surprise me as German products are rarely poor quality. The Jazz doesn't look half as cool as yours though but you did say that was a Shanling chassis so it's a pity they stopped using it.

I like the dust protection system. I've never seen it before but it makes sense.

Are you connecting your phone via the mini usb port straight to the Meier?

I didn't explain the DVD-Audio surround sound properly. I've never actually owned a surround sound system, I just read that DVD-Audio sounded best on 5.1 so that's why maybe I didn't notice much difference with Harvest. I must say though I wasn't well acquainted with the CD or Vinyl.

Thanks for explaining the format vs mastering situation. I appreciate it more now because it did puzzle me how a master tape could ever sound better on a higher bit rate format. Although I think master tapes are of a high quality themselves? Maybe not as good as pure digital but still workable.

You make a very good point regarding mail order items for people who live in outside major cities. Free return of items is a very good system.

I did have a chuckle when I looked at the price of those speakers, £129,999 and the fact they still use the '9' to make them look less than £130,000. Those Stax headphones are very expensive too. I'd love to hear both those speakers and headphones, they must offer something special. You are right about the speakers, I think I would like a specialist to arrive and set them up! And for sure the dealer's workers' comp insurance would be needed as they are enormous. Once they've been positioned you're going to have to move the seat if you want any further improvements.

Quad made famous electrostatic speakers way back long ago and they were regarded as very hi-fi but I don't think they caught on because they didn't deliver the bass of more 'regular' loudspeakers. I assume the nature of headphones being smaller means Stax won't have that problem. For £3,500 I hope not.

I would love to hear the Atmos effect you describe of sounds coming from above but I'd also prefer it to be in a cinema with the very best technology. The soundbars are supposed to be good but they're relatively expensive at the moment and I like my stereo system, gives me what I need from movies. The Tannoys are extra special at focusing voices. They have a supertweeter for high frequencies but I've not read a review where anyone has said they've heard anything coming from it. I like your explanation of it because I do like the speakers although you can get them for peanuts second hand. I think folk don't like the supertweeter being on top but the actual speakers sound great for budget stand mounts.

I read on a hi-fi review site about the Neutron Music App being the best for Flac files. PowerAmp is supposed to be good too but I think what you mentioned about the Neutron made them extra special for un compressed music.

I think I understand the Hard Right Hard Left problem you mentioned. With the AKG K450s that I use with my mobile the sound is mostly inside my head but with the Goldrings there was much more space which is why I loved watching movies with them.

The Fidelios I have aren't the high end range although they are decent, they are the semi open L1s. What I don't like about them that the Goldrings had is a direct cable input. There is a small 3.5mm cable connected to the Fidelios that connects to a variety of longer cables with 1/4 inch or 3.5mm endings. With the Goldrings you could directly connect a high quality cable. I don't understand why it's not standard on over the ear headphones.

Kimber make very good cables I've read. Very long history, 40 years making them.

So I've decided on two options, either a Sanskrit DAC on its own or an SMSL M3 DAC/Headphone Amp that I can use for the phone and a Magni 3 for the Fidelios that I can use with the Sanskrit or M3 and connect the television to the optical input.

As I can't tell the difference in DACs I'm thinking it's probably best just to get the M3 first and see what it's like and then add the Magni or even maybe a more expensive headphone amp later. I'm sure the M3 must be better than the headphone out on my TV?

Thanks again, really appreciate your time and information.

EDIT: Can I just clarify please ProtegeManiac, when you were describing the output of a DAC/AMP and a DAC going to another hi-fi amp or Headphone Amp where you saying it wouldn't matter which one I choose because the DAC/AMP would bypass the AMP electronics (thus avoiding noise) and just use the DAC if I connected it to a hi-fi or Headphone Amp?

I hope that makes sense, I just don't easily understand digital audio playback. I know you did explain it but I wasn't quite sure if that's what you are saying.
 
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Aug 3, 2018 at 2:16 AM Post #13 of 15
I had a Google search for your amp but couldn't find it. I find a review of the Jazz and Jazz ff. It was a very positive review and that didn't surprise me as German products are rarely poor quality. The Jazz doesn't look half as cool as yours though but you did say that was a Shanling chassis so it's a pity they stopped using it.

They started using the chassis around 2005 or 2006, then the Cantate first came out 2009 and was revised 2010.


Are you connecting your phone via the mini usb port straight to the Meier?

No. Android >> dock >> USB OTG adapter (miniUSB to female USB-A) >> USB A to USB B cable

The Cantate.2 has a USB-B input for its DAC. Higher tier models like the Symphony and older equivalent of the Cantate could be ordered without the DAC I think.


I didn't explain the DVD-Audio surround sound properly. I've never actually owned a surround sound system, I just read that DVD-Audio sounded best on 5.1 so that's why maybe I didn't notice much difference with Harvest. I must say though I wasn't well acquainted with the CD or Vinyl.

But you did not play it manually set to 5.1, right? Because if you did then the universal disc player will send out a signal for Center and L-R surrounds but they'd have nowhere to go.


Thanks for explaining the format vs mastering situation. I appreciate it more now because it did puzzle me how a master tape could ever sound better on a higher bit rate format. Although I think master tapes are of a high quality themselves? Maybe not as good as pure digital but still workable.

Very high res analogue or even digital tape. The thing with the analogue copies though is they aren't really designed to be used repeatedly so they're archived other than when mastering a new copy of the album.


You make a very good point regarding mail order items for people who live in outside major cities. Free return of items is a very good system.

Just be aware that there's a repacking fee of some kind on most items.


I did have a chuckle when I looked at the price of those speakers, £129,999 and the fact they still use the '9' to make them look less than £130,000. Those Stax headphones are very expensive too. I'd love to hear both those speakers and headphones, they must offer something special.

Stax at that price range, not so much. The sound will still be mostly inside your head, just smoother.

With speakers, well, the more you spend on them, presumably you should also increase spending on the environment they'll be in (ie dedicated room, acoustic treatments, etc) which is why speakers will really scale up if you're coming from more common speakers in a living then won the lottery and now have a 4M X 6M acoustically treated room to house speakers like that, where imaging is about as realistic as it gets.


You are right about the speakers, I think I would like a specialist to arrive and set them up! And for sure the dealer's workers' comp insurance would be needed as they are enormous. Once they've been positioned you're going to have to move the seat if you want any further improvements.

You probably shouldn't move the seat either and get it as right as possible while there's somebody else who can move them for you. And some mark the posiiton of the speakers and chairs in case they ever have to be moved for any reason it would be easy to reposition them.




Quad made famous electrostatic speakers way back long ago and they were regarded as very hi-fi but I don't think they caught on because they didn't deliver the bass of more 'regular' loudspeakers. I assume the nature of headphones being smaller means Stax won't have that problem. For £3,500 I hope not.

They kind of do because physics. Electrostats might be extremely smooth in the midrange and treble since they just vibrate the diaphragm, but they have zero excursion for low frequencies. Not that an electrostat can't have enough bass ever, just that they're going to need a lot more surface area. That's why Mark Levinson for example has a conventional subwoofer at the bottom. Magnepan sells an electrostatic subwoofer which is compact for that kind of diapgragm but I wouldn't expect anyone to even use it for HT; it's mostly just there to fill out the bottom end for music.


I would love to hear the Atmos effect you describe of sounds coming from above but I'd also prefer it to be in a cinema with the very best technology. The soundbars are supposed to be good but they're relatively expensive at the moment and I like my stereo system, gives me what I need from movies.

Uhhh I'm not talking about soundbars here. Even between a regular 2ch system and "Atmos" soundbars I'd just watch with 2.0 audio. A soundbar would need to be impractically wide to even have real left and right separation, then they're adding Atmos purely on DSP processing instead of an actual Atmos-level DSP using 10 surround channels.

Look at how the L-C-R at regular height is complimented by higher height L-C-R speakers above the screen. Those will barely ever play but in a situation where Batman or Iron Man is flying over one character and then says something off-screen you're going to hear their voice from above as opposed to just around the same level as the other audio but farther out along the X-Z axis.
Aufmacher_Artikel_24.jpg



The Tannoys are extra special at focusing voices. They have a supertweeter for high frequencies but I've not read a review where anyone has said they've heard anything coming from it. I like your explanation of it because I do like the speakers although you can get them for peanuts second hand. I think folk don't like the supertweeter being on top but the actual speakers sound great for budget stand mounts.

Dynaudio dealt with that by making the speakers taller and reversing the position, this way they make sure the tweeter is always at ear height and the bass doesn't reflect off the floor...
63aa033d1b3d2d133b362b69dbf19d30.jpg


...or they just outright mirror the drivers but the tweeters need to be at ear level still.
dynaudio-confidence-c4-platinum.jpg



I read on a hi-fi review site about the Neutron Music App being the best for Flac files. PowerAmp is supposed to be good too but I think what you mentioned about the Neutron made them extra special for un compressed music.

It's not that it's going to be better at FLAC just by default. People who use Neutron use it because of its DSP. If you won't use it, there are player apps with smoother interfaces for that. And that's what I use it for despite how the horizontal orientation of my Note3 dock has an atrocious horizontal interface format on Neutron unlike how MM and Foobar makes for an interface that looks a lot like a modern Squeezebox.


I think I understand the Hard Right Hard Left problem you mentioned. With the AKG K450s that I use with my mobile the sound is mostly inside my head but with the Goldrings there was much more space which is why I loved watching movies with them.

Whether it's all inside the head or slightly out the main problem is that L-C-R are all strong but with gaps in the middle, something inherent to when each ear hears only one driver. C is only imaged because both channels play the same signal.


The Fidelios I have aren't the high end range although they are decent, they are the semi open L1s. What I don't like about them that the Goldrings had is a direct cable input. There is a small 3.5mm cable connected to the Fidelios that connects to a variety of longer cables with 1/4 inch or 3.5mm endings. With the Goldrings you could directly connect a high quality cable. I don't understand why it's not standard on over the ear headphones.

Of the serious headphones around AFAIK only Grados still haven't switched to removable cables.


Kimber make very good cables I've read. Very long history, 40 years making them

IIRC they were raided by Feds after somebody figured out the "Made In USA" branding was a technicality, ie, they just cut the cables and then solder on the plugs in the US. Which is also probably how our DIY-er here found the conductors cheap in China, before they went into the finished cable spool.

Technically they should have changed it to "Assembled in the USA" or something. Although personally I can't see what the problem was with considering a Mustang using an A/C compressor from Japan or Taiwan is still made in the US.

In any case I wouldn't really fuss over the cable. Just that any other alternative wasn't that much cheaper and the jackets were too stiff for headphone use, and that's how I ended up with those.


So I've decided on two options, either a Sanskrit DAC on its own or an SMSL M3 DAC/Headphone Amp that I can use for the phone and a Magni 3 for the Fidelios that I can use with the Sanskrit or M3 and connect the television to the optical input.

As I can't tell the difference in DACs I'm thinking it's probably best just to get the M3 first and see what it's like and then add the Magni or even maybe a more expensive headphone amp later. I'm sure the M3 must be better than the headphone out on my TV?

If you don't have the Magni3 yet then yes that's probably the best route right now for the least amount of money.


EDIT: Can I just clarify please ProtegeManiac, when you were describing the output of a DAC/AMP and a DAC going to another hi-fi amp or Headphone Amp where you saying it wouldn't matter which one I choose because the DAC/AMP would bypass the AMP electronics (thus avoiding noise) and just use the DAC if I connected it to a hi-fi or Headphone Amp?

I hope that makes sense, I just don't easily understand digital audio playback. I know you did explain it but I wasn't quite sure if that's what you are saying.

As long as it has the correct connections, like the right digital inputs you need so it bypasses the analogue circuits of wherever the signal comes from, and then whatever comes after them needs to use the correct connection.

If it's a DAC-HPamp and its only output other than the headphone amp output is a preamp output then you'd have a problem integrating it with a speaker amp that has its own preamp circuit for example.
 
Aug 4, 2018 at 8:01 AM Post #14 of 15
Hi ProtegeManiac,

I see your amp now when searching for Cantate. I wonder why they stopped using such an aesthetically pleasing chassis?

It's strange that every type of USB OTG cable can be found apart from MiniUSB to USB-B.

I'm not sure which speaker set up I used to play the DVD-Audio. I think it was stereo as in the Settings you could choose which speaker set up you had.

Didn't realise the Master Tapes were that sensitive but it does makes sense only to use them when remastering to keep them at their best. I think a lot of people expected DAT to be huge. Not sure why it wasn't but I expect it was the CD-RW being so cheap.

Yes winning the lottery must be every audiophile's dream. Of course it's a dream for everyone but just imagining having the perfect room and testing out the most sophisticated equipment is quite the fantasy. Although I've always though I'd buy all McIntosh because I just love the style of their gear. Of course everyone would have to check out some D'Agostino. I'm sure there's a price point not far above 5 grand per component where I'd start failing blind tests, especially with Siltech Emperor Crown speaker cables.

That home theatre you showed looks incredible. It must be as close to being in the cinema one could get, maybe even better. Is that two monoblocks and two giant subwoofers? Definitely better than the best soundbar available I'm sure ha.

I remember reading about those Mark Levinson speakers and how revolutionary they were combining old tech with new. It was funny and surreal seeing them randomly placed in the apartment in a TV show where the character wasn't rich and there was no sign of other high end sources. Was it Friends?

I've always loved the design of Dynaudio speakers. I didn't realise they had supertweeters set up like that. Makes sense but I think what is even better is having the bass speakers on top to prevent reflection off floor surfaces. My Tannoys have front facing bass ports and two sponges supplied to fill the ports if the bass is too boomy heh very high tech.

That monoblock in the Dynaudio picture, that's really famous but I can't remember the name. Is that Levinson too? I don't recognise any of the other sources.

The mirror image Dynaudios look beautiful. Probably sound so too. They won't be in the lottery winner price range either if memory serves me right, they're expensive but not more than normal car.

Talking of lottery winning, I was looking at an SMSL review on YouTube and on the right hand side there was a video showing $50,000 Sennheisers yieks. They did come with a marble tube headphone amp too though and I think they are electrostatic. The guy says the frequency range is 5hz to 100,000hz wow. Is there any living creature that can hear that high? Bats maybe?

Regarding the Neutron app I got it totally wrong. I'm sure what the reviewer was referring to was their ability when connecting a phone via the usb port to a dac? It's a pity about the interface as I thought that would be the easiest part of making an app?

So that Hard Left Hard Right is something inherent in all headphones due to their closeness? I guess with top equipment that effect is reduced? You mentioned Gaming and I read an article that said a good soundcard can make a lot of difference to whether a person wins or loses a game because the best ones can let you hear people coming up from behind you? I don't play games so I don't know. I'm sure it's true though, just as a good internet speed will give players an edge even if it's a millisecond. When it comes to stock market algorithms there is massive demand for computers to be physically closer to the stock exchange servers because the programs make deals so quickly that a nanosecond can make a difference. Crazy stuff. I do like to keep my speaker cables the same length though even if the amp isn't positioned centrally. Not that I notice, just cause it would bug me.

Why would Grado not allow custom cables to be used? Wouldn't it be cheaper to manufacture headphones with a cable in socket? I don't like the way AKG has a twist on cable socket because if the cable gets caught in something it will snap rather than just come out as it would using a normal socket.

Yeah that is a bummer for Kimber getting raided by the Feds. I mean are all the components in a Schiit product manufactured in the USA? I'd be surprised if some of the chips weren't made in the Far East.

Talking of Mustangs, I'd love a '67 model. What a classic design that is.

It looks like the M3 will be the way to go because the guy who made the review (who must have about 40 pairs of headphones) said the difference between the SMSL and the Micca OriGen is the M3 can be used to connect to a hi-fi with passive speakers but the OriGen would be best for connecting Active speakers because of their volume controls.

So I think connecting the SMSL to a hi-fi means the volume is controlled by the hi-fi which is perfect for me as I have a remote for that. Also, even though he didn't demonstrate this I assume it must mean it has the correct voltage output you mentioned earlier. He also said connecting them to a hi-fi would mean bypassing the AMP electronics so that should be good.

Hopefully by next week I can report back with my first thoughts on how good it is. I'm not expecting miracles for such a cheap component but it would be so handy to use the phone as a quality source.

Forgive me for not formatting my posts the neat way you do but I feel I'm not telling you anything new so there's no reason for me to quote you whereas everything you've told me is new information.

Thanks very much for taking the time to do that, it's very kind of you.

PS I had to have a search for most expensive speakers just for fun and they are definitely well named for $1,200,000, the Magico Ultimate. Would be fun pairing them with the right source.
 
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Aug 5, 2018 at 2:22 AM Post #15 of 15
I see your amp now when searching for Cantate. I wonder why they stopped using such an aesthetically pleasing chassis?

Because it's expensive. Cantate.s only real advantage to the one tier down amp was the USB DAC and the chassis, so now they streamlined and just have the Jazz FF.


It's strange that every type of USB OTG cable can be found apart from MiniUSB to USB-B.

That's because the original really was just the OTG to female USB adapters and the market was bigger for the smaller connectors, since the bulk of the adapters isn't a thing on desktop systems with USB-B on the DAC, unlike portables that use miniUSB.


I'm not sure which speaker set up I used to play the DVD-Audio. I think it was stereo as in the Settings you could choose which speaker set up you had.

If the vocals were loud enough then it's unlikely it defaulted to 5.0.


That home theatre you showed looks incredible. It must be as close to being in the cinema one could get, maybe even better. Is that two monoblocks and two giant subwoofers? Definitely better than the best soundbar available I'm sure ha.

Can't tell if the amps are monoblocks but it's possible he's using more amps somewhere else for the other speakers.


I remember reading about those Mark Levinson speakers and how revolutionary they were combining old tech with new. It was funny and surreal seeing them randomly placed in the apartment in a TV show where the character wasn't rich and there was no sign of other high end sources. Was it Friends?

No need to be rich when you have a Wall St job and not spending on child support.
1*oypjko8tBC3iwwkL77bh6w.png




I've always loved the design of Dynaudio speakers. I didn't realise they had supertweeters set up like that. Makes sense but I think what is even better is having the bass speakers on top to prevent reflection off floor surfaces. My Tannoys have front facing bass ports and two sponges supplied to fill the ports if the bass is too boomy heh very high tech.

They're not actually supertweeters, they're still cut at the normal range taking over from the midrange/midwoofer. Supertweeters are cut higher, usually 8000hz or higher, basically just to fill in where a "full"range driver trails off (and even then no need to fuss with the crossover design as the point where it crosses over is less critical for extremely precise high and low pass settings).


That monoblock in the Dynaudio picture, that's really famous but I can't remember the name. Is that Levinson too? I don't recognise any of the other sources.

Not a monobloc, it's a stereo amp. That's why there's only one between both speakers. Not sure what the amp is though. Could be an older Krell.


The mirror image Dynaudios look beautiful. Probably sound so too. They won't be in the lottery winner price range either if memory serves me right, they're expensive but not more than normal car.

IIRC it's around US $8,000. And apart from the large room to put them in, best have a large enough storage space for the box in case you ever move.


Regarding the Neutron app I got it totally wrong. I'm sure what the reviewer was referring to was their ability when connecting a phone via the usb port to a dac?

No. Practically any app will work via USB as long as the phone's Android software natively supports USB audio. When the phone's specific Android does not, the older option was USB Audio Player Pro, and even before that, it was USB Recorder Pro (ie they came out with a player app when they realized people were using it to stream audio via USB, as its software for dealing with external mics allowed Androids that do not have native support to stream audio via USB). It wasn't until some time after UAPP came out that Neutron came up with its own drivers embedded in the player itself, and even then, it was a request by Neutron users because UAPP didn't have the sophisticated DSP features that Neutron has.

If anything, on phones that don't support higher than 24/48 resolution, Neutron allows for up to 24/192. Samsung Note and S series support that natively by now though.


It's a pity about the interface as I thought that would be the easiest part of making an app?

That might be true for apps that are fairly straightforward but the elimination of home buttons for Multi-Window controls, no physical "Back" buttons, etc complicates how you access the audio content and the DSP on Neutron. On top of which, in my particular application with the horizontal Note 3 dock (which the manufacturer thought was very important thanks to how large phones made vertical orientation docks top heavy on the dock barring a heavy dock like what Apple has for the iPad), Neutron never bothered to fix what it looked like on horizontal mode, unlike how you get album art and info on one side and the controls on the other side on MediaMonkey and Spotify.


So that Hard Left Hard Right is something inherent in all headphones due to their closeness?

No, it's not simply the distance. It's because each ear hears only one driver, unlike how both ears will hear both speakers in a room. If anything if you position speakers flanking you instead of both in front you'd get a similar imaging profile, ie, the soundstage isn't projected in front with depth, although of course you're not going to get the problematic


I guess with top equipment that effect is reduced?

Only in how a smoother response curve will prevent instruments from getting pushed forward but otherwise it can't just override physics.

Except for Crossfeed. That comes on Meier amps where a high pass filter allows for some frequencies to gently filter across both channels. Neutron has it too but it's completely variable, but if you know the settings that Meier uses then you can replicate that without them having to ask for permission to license a Meier setting (ex Foobar specifically refers to the plug in as Meier Crossfeed, but it's not really Foobar that begged to use it; developer asked Meier for permission or something). Of course, that still doesn't make for a bigger soundstage, because you can't override physics. It actually makes the soundstage narrower, but deeper, since the cymbals don't end up too far forward and to the flanks.


You mentioned Gaming and I read an article that said a good soundcard can make a lot of difference to whether a person wins or loses a game because the best ones can let you hear people coming up from behind you? I don't play games so I don't know. I'm sure it's true though, just as a good internet speed will give players an edge even if it's a millisecond. When it comes to stock market algorithms there is massive demand for computers to be physically closer to the stock exchange servers because the programs make deals so quickly that a nanosecond can make a difference. Crazy stuff. I do like to keep my speaker cables the same length though even if the amp isn't positioned centrally. Not that I notice, just cause it would bug me.

No the soundcard can't really image sound behind the listener well enough. But you don't just stare in one direction in a game, so when you move the camera, the improved depth and directionality through the DSP features - ie the surround version of Crossfeed, Virtual Surround - has more perceptible location cues when the sound sources are in-frame, ie in front of your avatar's and your ears.

Also those nanosecond delays in gaming can have more to do with the internet connection and mouse than the soundcard. If you have a crap wireless mouse there's going to be lag; if you have a high ping ISP, every input will have lag.


Why would Grado not allow custom cables to be used? Wouldn't it be cheaper to manufacture headphones with a cable in socket?

If they'll have the cable mass manufactured in China that way then yes. Otherwise they're going to have to add to the manufacturing steps in the Brooklyn factory to solder on the sockets then assemble the cables. Which they don't really need to considering how many people would just customize their Grados anyway.

Headphile even transplants them into baffles that go onto Beyerdynamic chassis and the larger ear cup more easily fits a socket for a detachable cable


I mean are all the components in a Schiit product manufactured in the USA? I'd be surprised if some of the chips weren't made in the Far East.

Components can be made elsewhere just like a Mustang's A/C compressor. Chassis, board, and the trasnformers on the amps that don't use a brick (ie the Magni's etc brick comes from China, but being an external unit, it's not really counted as part of the amp itself) are made in the US then the components are soldered on in the California factory (afaik only the transformers are from out of state).

In the case of Kimber the argument was along the lines of no part of it was made in the USA at all, just the final assembly and repacking for retail from the large spools of cable.


Talking of Mustangs, I'd love a '67 model. What a classic design that is.

I'm more of the 1969 Boss, although otherwise - like with the Countach and Diablo - I prefer the first versions over the huge wings on the later models.


It looks like the M3 will be the way to go because the guy who made the review (who must have about 40 pairs of headphones) said the difference between the SMSL and the Micca OriGen is the M3 can be used to connect to a hi-fi with passive speakers but the OriGen would be best for connecting Active speakers because of their volume controls.

So I think connecting the SMSL to a hi-fi means the volume is controlled by the hi-fi which is perfect for me as I have a remote for that. Also, even though he didn't demonstrate this I assume it must mean it has the correct voltage output you mentioned earlier. He also said connecting them to a hi-fi would mean bypassing the AMP electronics so that should be good.

As long as you don't have the obvious lower output volume that you're getting now then you can safely assume the M3 has 2V or very near to 2V that it's not audible.
 

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