Android 14 and "USB Lossless" ...what does it even mean?
May 13, 2024 at 6:27 AM Thread Starter Post #1 of 9

droid23

100+ Head-Fier
Joined
Jan 11, 2011
Posts
305
Likes
787
Location
Austria & Italy
So, I stumbled on a very actual article on this topic of Android 14's "lossless USB", where a Japanese enthusiast was trying to find out what it means and what it actually can provide, since Google themselves are a bit "cryptic" with that.

Sorry it's in Japanese but I provide also a Google translator link:
https://av.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/series/dal/1590643.html

Google translator to english:
https://av-watch-impress-co-jp.tran...l=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=de&_x_tr_pto=wapp
(translation doesn't work flawlessly though, sorry. just scroll through the article and refresh page, then it translates again)

It's not my intention to start a big discussion on that, but let's see, maybe it leads to some more good insights!?

Cheers
 
Last edited:
May 13, 2024 at 6:53 AM Post #2 of 9
"Lossless" is a bit unlucky. "Bit perfect" is where this is about.
Android by design resamples all audio to 48 kHz.
In the past there were media players allowing you to bypass this default sample rate (and therefore the entire android audio) using a USB DAC.
This now has become an option in Android 14.
Just like you can call hog mode in OSX or use a driver like WASAPI/Exclusive in Win to bypass operating system audio, today the programmer can do the same in Android 14.
 
May 13, 2024 at 6:59 AM Post #3 of 9
I don’t know specifics but I have seen a few complaints that bit perfect “doesn’t work” on certain devices running Android 14 with responses to the effect that it is an available option and manufacturers and developers need to utilise that option otherwise the standard 48khz Android resampling will apply.
 
May 13, 2024 at 9:35 AM Post #4 of 9
I don’t know specifics but I have seen a few complaints that bit perfect “doesn’t work” on certain devices running Android 14 with responses to the effect that it is an available option and manufacturers and developers need to utilise that option otherwise the standard 48khz Android resampling will apply.
Yes, that is also what I get from this articles conclusion.

Google and Android devs respectively just implemented the ability into the Android 14 "AudioMixerAttributes" but nothing more. This is just a possibility, and is not a guarantee that your very phone running on Android 14 makes use of it, as it is stated here:



"Bit-perfect playback attribute
The bit-perfect playback attribute is optional and is supported only in the AIDL implementation of the Audio HAL. To support bit-perfect playback, vendors must add the bit-perfect output flag AUDIO_OUTPUT_FLAG_BIT_PERFECT to the dynamic mix port that can be routed to the USB device."




If they don't, everything will be still stuck with the "default" system wide audio mixer and will be transmitted in 48 kHz either to your headphone directly, or to your dongle.

Did I understand it correctly?
 
May 13, 2024 at 6:12 PM Post #5 of 9
Unfortunately, only the first dozen or so paragraphs translate for me, so I’m not sure if the point I’m going to make is addressed (put right/into perspective) later in the article. There seems to be an unhealthy marketing driven obsession in the audiophile world, actually there are many but I’ll address a particular one:
However, to go a little further, there has been a problem with Android that it basically resamples to 48kHz internally.
Why is that “a problem”? And:
Therefore, even if you try to reproduce high-quality sound using a USB-DAC, all 44.1kHz and 96kHz sound sources are converted to 48kHz, making it impossible to listen to the original sound.
In the case of 44.1kHz sample rate, what sound is missing/lost when converted to a 48kHz sample rate? And in the case of 96kHz and other higher sample rates, the sound that is missing/lost when converted to 48kHz is “impossible to listen to” anyway, it’s well outside the range of adult hearing.

The reason Apple and Google waited so long before supporting higher than 48kHz sample rates for playback is because it’s just an audiophile marketing tactic that makes no audible difference, so they weren’t going to waste resources implementing it until devices had enough resources to waste and there was some tangible benefit (such as marketing to more than just a tiny niche).

There’s certainly a case for making sure no audio processing of the data is occurring but “bit-perfect” just seems to be a marketing invention aimed paranoid audiophiles.

G
 
May 14, 2024 at 2:46 AM Post #7 of 9
Coming from audiology and audiological sciences related to hearing, I fully, and literally naturally, agree that, from a pure neurophysiological point of view, healthy little humans up to the age of roughly around 25yo, cannot process any sound lower than 20 Hz, and higher than 20 to 21 kHz with our cochlea and our end-point in the brain, the auditory cortex. Every FQ outside of that simply isn't there for our brain, so to speak, and nobody is able to give an "evaluation" of "nothing", unless you're deeply rooted in the esoteric realm maybe.
This is the complete framework we're living our hearing lives... until we age (presbycusis might apply more or less) or damage our hearing due to carelessness, or sadly acquire any other hearing related pathology along the way.

But there is still the technical aspect...
I try to give you my understanding, but it's very basic, since I'm not a sound engineer:

In production and mastering, higher bitrates (e.g. 24 over 16) give the potential for lower noise and noise floor, as well as providing more headroom for higher dynamic range, whereas higher sampling frequency gives options for better low-pass (anti-aliasing) filters. You push the artifacts created by filtering up to higher, safely non audible frequencies... and that's one part of the Nyquist–Shannon sampling theorem. So, if I'm right and if you have extremely good recording equipment, say with >20 kHz, in mastering, you would be wise to use a much higher FQ range to give enough leeway to apply any kind of filtering without producing audible artifacts, in order to keep the data as pristine as possible (for whatever reason, but mostly they refer to archival/preservation aspects of it). Would you be able to hear a difference to CD Audio's 16-44.1? Yes, if you're a dog.
 
Last edited:
May 14, 2024 at 5:12 AM Post #8 of 9
from a pure neurophysiological point of view, healthy little humans up to the age of roughly around 25yo, cannot process any sound lower than 20 Hz, and higher than 20 to 21 kHz with our cochlea and our end-point in the brain, the auditory cortex.
To be accurate, I think we need to acknowledge that there are conditions under which this quote isn’t necessarily true. There have been some studies demonstrating that some young adults can process and hear/detect frequencies up to around 24kHz. However, this is uncommon and requires pure tones/sine waves at extremely high sound pressure levels (around 110dB or so). Such studies are somewhat rare and old, because it is now known that such levels can result in hearing damage after a relatively short exposure time and so it would be difficult/impossible to design a study today that is medically ethical. None of this applies to consumers listening to music though, because music never consists of just a single sine wave above 20kHz, peak levels are typically around 200Hz with relatively low or no energy above 20kHz. At reasonable listening levels, young adults can typically achieve about 17.5kHz, not uncommonly only around 16kHz and extremely rarely more than about 19kHz.
In production and mastering, higher bitrates (e.g. 24 over 16) give the potential for lower noise and noise floor, as well as providing more headroom for higher dynamic range, whereas higher sampling frequency gives options for better low-pass (anti-aliasing) filters. You push the artifacts created by filtering up to higher, safely non audible frequencies... and that's one part of the Nyquist–Shannon sampling theorem.
We have to be careful here because we have to separate file format from processing environment, a fact that is pretty much always omitted in audiophile marketing, reviews, etc. A 24bit file format provides more headroom than a 16bit file format when recording but that’s it, that’s pretty much where the benefit ends. Using more than 16bit is necessary when processing (mixing and applying effects) as error/noise occurs in the LSB (least significant bit) and sums with each successive process/plugin. Even with 24bit, with enough channels and processing, this can add up to an audible increase in the noise floor and this is why professional DAWs and hardware mixers have never operated at 16 or 24bit. The internal (virtual) mixing and processing environment in professional DAWs today is 64bit float and even the very first commercially available digital mixer (in 1987 from Yamaha) used a 27bit environment. In other words, the 16bit or 24bit file is loaded into RAM (in the DAW) and processed at 64bit, noise/error from each process/processor is therefore confined to roughly the 64th bit and even summing many thousands of channels and processors together does not result in noise/error anywhere near even reproducible levels, let alone audible levels. The final stage is then to come out of the virtual environment and record the completed mix to a file format (16 or 24bit), after all the processing has been completed.
So, if I'm right and if you have extremely good recording equipment, say with up to 48 kHz, in mastering, you would be wise to double the FQ range to give enough leeway to apply any kind of filtering without producing artefacts, in order to keep the data as pristine as possible (for whatever reason, but mostly they refer to archival/preservation aspects of it).
Mmmm, not really. There was (20+ years ago) a legitimate reason for higher than 48kHz sample rates, although it had nothing to do with filtering. There were certain processes that required higher than 24kHz audio frequencies, for example, vintage analogue limiters and compressors had particular sound signatures partially reliant on intermodulation distortion (IMD). Ultrasonic distortion caused IMD within the audible band. So to emulate such processing in the digital domain required calculating distortion products up to around 30kHz or so, to derive the IMD, which obviously could not be accomplished if the max allowable freq was 22.05kHz or 24kHz. So in the early days of higher than 48kHz sample rates, just apply a processor on a 44.1/48kHz file (such as a vintage compressor emulation plugin) and it could quite easily be ABX’ed against the original analogue unit or the same plugin operating on a 96kHz file. Hey presto, an audible difference between 48kHz and 96kHz! However, that situation only existed for a few years. In the 2000’s computers got much more powerful and plugin programming got much more sophisticated. Feed say a 48kHz recording into such a plugin in the mid 2000’s and the plugin would internally upsample to 96kHz, calculate what it needed to in the ultrasonic freqs, create the IMD in the audible range and downsample back to the input sample rate (48kHz), which obviously preserved the IMD in the audible range. Now 96kHz vs 44.1/48kHz could no longer be ABX’ed and the benefit of higher sample rate recordings no longer existed!

Audiophiles seem very troubled by up/over sampling, apparently without realising that the music they’re listening to has already been up/over sampled (and down sampled again) many times, commonly around a dozen times or so and occasionally several dozens of times. One more time will not make any audible difference (unless you apply a deliberately inappropriate/broken filter).

G
 
Last edited:
May 14, 2024 at 5:34 AM Post #9 of 9
I agree and thank you for your explanations answering the 2nd and 3rd quote. As I said, my knowledge is limited in that regard, but glad I was not totally wrong here... conceptually wrong.

To your first answer, I know, since that's the field I work in... or let's say it's part of my work. I chose to leave out some audiological (and sometimes historical) findings because I wanted my comment not be extremely extensive. For example some we also can hear frequencies below 20 Hz, in the upper infrasound range when the spl is high enough. But also here, and not only in audible low frequencies, we often can feel these FQs with our body.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top