[tourmaline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by spritzer /img/forum/go_quote.gif Amps are especially tricky since they are always compromised except in the hand built ultra high end.

Mine is pretty much completely transformed with all the goodies audio has to offer; signal wiring, loads of black gate caps (not standard), vcaps etc.

So, i would say this comes pretty close to your definition. And it is very revealing.

Good recordings really shine, crap recordings let you hear why you think they are crap.

i even feel the source and the amp are not the weakest part of the system, the headphones are!

They still have some ground to pick up compared to really good speaker systems.

 

[mirumu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tourmaline /img/forum/go_quote.gif Mine is pretty much completely transformed with all the goodies audio has to offer; signal wiring, loads of black gate caps (not standard), vcaps etc. So, i would say this comes pretty close to your definition. And it is very revealing. Good recordings really shine, crap recordings let you hear why you think they are crap. i even feel the source and the amp are not the weakest part of the system, the headphones are! The still have some ground to pick up compared to really goos speaker systems.

There is also the issue of topology though. There are a number of very different ways to build an audio amplifier with very different circuit layouts and tolerances. Each of these have their own pros and cons. Many of these topologies are never seen in commercial headphone amplifiers. For example, many commercial designs avoid transformers in the signal path because a poor transformer will sound bad and a good transformer will cost a lot of money pushing up the cost (they can also be hard to design). Additionally many of the best sounding tubes are never used because there is no consistent supply that can provide for any reasonable scale of commercial production. Some designs are also just downright dangerous to build and it is no surprise that commercial designers would rather avoid this sort of design.

You can replace parts in commercial amps like you describe with silver wire, black gates, etc but changing the topology is not practical and even if you did so, you would essentially have a new amplifier. With the hand built ultra high end amplifiers Spritzer is talking of the builder has the freedom to design the circuit in any way they want and customize the design right from the start around whatever parts they want no matter how rare they may be. When you have this level of freedom and the cash to back it up you will make very different design choices to a commercial builder and will quite likely go with a very different topology. I'd say it's by-and-large impossible to find a commercial amp designed and built with so few compromises.

 

[tourmaline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mirumu /img/forum/go_quote.gif There is also the issue of topology though. There are a number of very different ways to build an audio amplifier with very different circuit layouts and tolerances. Each of these have their own pros and cons. Many of these topologies are never seen in commercial headphone amplifiers. For example, many commercial designs avoid transformers in the signal path because a poor transformer will sound bad and a good transformer will cost a lot of money pushing up the cost (they can also be hard to design). Additionally many of the best sounding tubes are never used because there is no consistent supply that can provide for any reasonable scale of commercial production. Some designs are also just downright dangerous to build and it is no surprise that commercial designers would rather avoid this sort of design. You can replace parts in commercial amps like you describe with silver wire, black gates, etc but changing the topology is not practical and even if you did so, you would essentially have a new amplifier. With the hand built ultra high end amplifiers Spritzer is talking of the builder has the freedom to design the circuit in any way they want and customize the design right from the start around whatever parts they want no matter how rare they may be. When you have this level of freedom and the cash to back it up you will make very different design choices to a commercial builder and will quite likely go with a very different topology. I'd say it's by-and-large impossible to find a commercial amp designed and built with so few compromises.

What about the high end krell, mark levinson, audio note gaku on etc? These cost between 50.000 and 100.000 dollars.

I wouldn't call these regular commercial amps.

Some commercial amps are good. hence some cheaper amps beating more expensive amps.

Remember somebody had a custom amp build (15.000 or so) for his headphone and ended up with a commercial amp and cheaper headphone.

To him, it sounded more balanced and better. So, no, not every over the top amp is worth the money. Even some experts say high end isn't worth the money and hardly better then good mid price amps. Some high end amps are on old design topology, nothing new. They only use higher end components.

Oh, i am very pleased with my transformed amp, it's in the ballpark of the big ones.

If you have a good design, good components make it so much better! And in general, that's all the expensive amps have, better components.

Don't forget taste. Some really crappy measuring amps sound better then amps with very tight tolerances! detail isn't everything in audio, musicallity is. Detail and musicallity is the hardest thing to make.
Alot of people say audio note is not so well designed but they are quite picky with their components(very well selected for a certain sound) and still sound very good.

Think electrostats; those have in general more detail but less drive and musicallity. Dynamic has beter drive, better bottom end and more musicality and body, but less detail. very hard to combine the 2 in a good mix.

The best systems are usually very expensive dynamic speaker setups! headphone mostly fail because of the headroom. Big orchestra's are pretty much very hard for a headphone to propperly display. A good speaker is able to display a full orchestra with ease and air. Something very hard for headphones!

 

[mirumu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tourmaline /img/forum/go_quote.gif What about the high end krell, mark levinson, audio note gaku on etc? These cost between 50.000 and 100.000 dollars. I wouldn't call these regular commercial amps. Some commercial amps are good. hence some cheaper amps beating more expensive amps. Remember somebody had a custom amp build (15.000 or so) for his headphone and ended up with a commercial amp and cheaper headphone. To him, it sounded more balanced and better. So, no, not every over the top amp is worth the money. Even some experts say high end isn't worth the money and hardly better then good mid price amps. Some high end amps are on old design topology, nothing new. They only use higher end components. Oh, i am very pleased with my transformed amp, it's in the ballpark of the big ones. If you have a good design, good components make it so much better! And in general, that's all the expensive amps have, better components. Don't forget taste. Some really crappy measuring amps sound better then amps with very tight tolerances! detail isn't everything in audio, musicallity is. Detail and musicallity is the hardest thing to make. Alot of people say audio note is not so well designed but they are quite picky with their components(very well selected for a certain sound) and still sound very good. Think electrostats; those have in general more detail but less drive and musicallity. Dynamic has beter drive, better bottom end and more musicality and body, but less detail. very hard to combine the 2 in a good mix. The best systems are usually very expensive dynamic speaker setups! headphone mostly fail because of the headroom. Big orchestra's are pretty much very hard for a headphone to propperly display. A good speaker is able to display a full orchestra with ease and air. Something very hard for headphones!

There's definitely the money-no-object crowd, especially if you look outside the headphone amplifier market. If you go high enough the line between commercial products and custom designs can blur a bit too. You're right too, there's no guarantees that a custom amplifier will sound better than a commercial offering. I wouldn't suggest for a moment that old designs are bad either, I find I tend to prefer them. There are though a lot of commercial amplifiers that are heavily compromised designs with the aim of the builder turning a profit. I don't have a problem with that, you can't run a business any other way, but it is good to have realistic expectations of what they are and what they can do. Not all of their flaws can be fixed with better components.

Unfortunately though the idea of better components is not quite as simple as you suggest. Just because you use a better transformer does it mean that it will sound better than a circuit that doesn't use a transformer? Some circuits are just different and not all use the components the same way. Better components with a poor topology will still sound bad. Some of the good sounding cheaper amps you talk of don't have such great components but they will have a reasonably well designed circuit with a topology fitting the components used. The best amplifiers have both a good circuit design and good components. One without the other is a recipe for disaster.

I do agree that it comes down to taste and musicality but this is one of the very reasons why the one-side-fits-all commercial amplifiers are not always the best option. I'm keen to get a nice amplifier for my Omega 2s but what I'm looking for isn't commercially available. It all depends what you're looking for.

 

[humanflyz]

Price has nothing to do with topologies that are never used in the commercial market. And just because they are not used doesn't mean they aren't better than commercially-available designs. There are a host of reasons why mainstream audiophile companies won't use certain esoteric designs that are meant to push the envelope, but that doesn't mean nothing better than mainstream offerings can exist.

"Regular commercial amps" have nothing to do with price in this context; we are talking purely in terms of design here.

 

[tourmaline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mirumu /img/forum/go_quote.gif There's definitely the money-no-object crowd, especially if you look outside the headphone amplifier market. If you go high enough the line between commercial products and custom designs can blur a bit too. You're right too, there's no guarantees that a custom amplifier will sound better than a commercial offering. I wouldn't suggest for a moment that old designs are bad either, I find I tend to prefer them. There are though a lot of commercial amplifiers that are heavily compromised designs with the aim of the builder turning a profit. I don't have a problem with that, you can't run a business any other way, but it is good to have realistic expectations of what they are and what they can do. Not all of their flaws can be fixed with better components. Unfortunately though the idea of better components is not quite as simple as you suggest. Just because you use a better transformer does it mean that it will sound better than a circuit that doesn't use a transformer? Some circuits are just different and not all use the components the same way. Better components with a poor topology will still sound bad. Some of the good sounding cheaper amps you talk of don't have such great components but they will have a reasonably well designed circuit with a topology fitting the components used. The best amplifiers have both a good circuit design and good components. One without the other is a recipe for disaster. I do agree that it comes down to taste and musicality but this is one of the very reasons why the one-side-fits-all commercial amplifiers are not always the best option. I'm keen to get a nice amplifier for my Omega 2s but what I'm looking for isn't commercially available. It all depends what you're looking for.

If you look at tube amp designs, yes, a good transformer makes it in general much better, regardless of design topology!

A good cap with good top and bottom frequency responce makes an amp better, regardless of design topology! What design does is placing some neccessary components into a certain place. Some would use another design to avoid some of these components in that path. Better cabling makes a difference; regardless of design topology, you need wires in an amp.

 

[tourmaline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by humanflyz /img/forum/go_quote.gif Price has nothing to do with topologies that are never used in the commercial market. And just because they are not used doesn't mean they aren't better than commercially-available designs. There are a host of reasons why mainstream audiophile companies won't use certain esoteric designs that are meant to push the envelope, but that doesn't mean nothing better than mainstream offerings can exist. "Regular commercial amps" have nothing to do with price in this context; we are talking purely in terms of design here.

This is discussable; why wouldn't a commercial company use their best designs?! There is fierce competition and to stand out you need to have better sound, simple as that, especially in the high end section, where it is often decided by nuances and taste.

The hardest thing to do for any designer is making an amp that is not costing an arm and a legg yet can compete with the big ones!

Some companies don't have the philosophy to bring the best, but to bring the best for a certain pricerange!

And to be honest, differences are quite small in priceranges. Only a modded amp will take it one or two notches up the ladder, with less money then a commercial variant would cost!

 

[Carl]

Well, no electronic device will ever be entirely neutral on part of the fact that all electronic parts affect the sound and a device with no parts isn't much of a device. Speakers, amps, they're all the same in that respect. Good parts, generally speaking of course, are more expensive, but as to whether better parts are used in more expensive products, that isn't always the case. Good design is about steering the electron and mechanical movement around the design compromises and through the least compromised parts so overall parts (and theoretically product cost) is lower relative to the resulting sound. Again, refering to both speaker, amps, turntables, etc.

Depending on whether "musicality" means "added distortion" or "subtracted distortion" will affect how you would describe the qualities of an electrostatic speaker. Low hysteresis due to low excursion and low mass, low intermodulation from being a balanced driven dipole, they have much less inherant distortion and nonlinearity than even the smallest, lightest cone speaker. Even lighter speaker types like plasmas have even less. To me, that is musicality, but I appriciate that music appriciation spreads further than just my take on things.

A major part of the bass limitations of electrostats and the treble limitations of dynamics comes down to simple reactance of the electronic devices. Capacitance for stats and inductance for dynamics. As the frequency changes the speaker is less capable of doing it's job in driving it's mechanical load. Of courser, this is just an extension of my first point. Stats, when fully able to drive their load have bass that sounds just like live unamped performances, of course they're completely incapable of adding the distortion of large scale power amplification and high output cone speakers like you'd encounter at a rock concert, which is an extension of my second point.

There is no technical reason a headphone cannot reproduce things that speaker can, even if in practice this happens to be the case. The same mechnical process of sinosoidal preasure variations hitting our pinna at an angle of incidence with differing phase/amplitude/frequency is involved either way. Headphones have a much smaller air body and room size, so more reflections are involved, but each reflection is itself smaller, but that is still something that can be ameliorated. Headphones have fixed angles of attack, but then so do speakers, a toughy that one, and tends to lead to the pandoras box of more drivers. And that just leaves the issue of headphones being binaural playback devices rather than stereophonic ones, something that can only really be delt with via DSP due to the very high complexity of converting stereophonic sound to binaural sound. Still, it is at least completely possible on paper. So yes, in practice a speaker is typically more realistic than a headphone, but none of its advantages are impossible to solve.

Anyway, that's just my take on the situation.

 

[tourmaline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carl /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well, no electronic device will ever be entirely neutral completely possible on paper. So yes, in practice a speaker is typically more realistic than a headphone, but none of its advantages are impossible to solve. Anyway, that's just my take on the situation.

Most important thing is synergy between the components. Spending loads of money will not guarantee this synergy and is a waste of money, regardless of design. I heard expensive setups sounding crap and i heard relatively cheap setups playing the rooftiles off.


And looking into a design; if you have a certain design with certain parts used and you replace it with better components(less intrusive), you betcha it'll sound much better. A good mod shop will look into the parts that needs to be modded and at wich place(s) the mod will have most impact, mostly it's not just a simple swap of components, but trying to improve on the design.

True, i think headphone design is a little behind speaker design and they need to pickup, as sennheiser does next year. Eventually we'll get there, but at what price?! The most important problem is headroom.

 

[Carl]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tourmaline /img/forum/go_quote.gif Most important thing is synergy between the components. Spending loads of money will not guarantee this synergy and is a waste of money, regardless of design. I heard expensive setups sounding crap and i heard relatively cheap setups playing the rooftiles off.

Sure. But really synergy is just looking at the system as one entity electrically and mechanically. It's only when you start looking at things discretely, be it on the device level, the part level, that you start losing sight of things. At the end of the day you're just pushing electrons and air around, the little pictures are simply parts of a bigger one.

Quote:

And looking into a design; if you have a certain design with certain parts used and you replace it with better components(less intrusive), you betcha it'll sound much better. A good mod shop will look into the parts that needs to be modded and at wich place(s) the mod will have most impact, mostly it's not just a simple swap of components, but trying to improve on the design.

I don't think you'll find anyone who would disagree with the suggestion that better sounding parts sound better. The problem with parts rolling in practice is people tend to lose sight of the big picture both in designing and upgrading, which is why you often see people spend big money on a putting a fancy cap in one part of an amp but leave some nasty electrolytic for the cathode bypasses (where it's directly in the current path) and the like. Understanding how the energy is being transfered and using good parts where it counts is the secret to getting good sound and not spending bajillions in the process. Of course, it's also a very time consuming and mentally draining secret, and there's plenty of people out there who'd rather just hand over a wad of cash for something overpriced and be done with it.

Quote:

True, i think headphone design is a little behind speaker design and they need to pickup, as sennheiser does next year. Eventually we'll get there, but at what price?!

Sennheiser have never been at the bleeding edge, really. Even the HE90 is fairly straightforward from a sound production point of view when you think about it, even if it is quite a marvel in terms of materials science.

There are a number of really nicely designed headphone drivers in existance. The problem in my mind is the housing designs. You wouldn't pay big bucks for a set of Avant Gardes or Acoustats if they had a housing made of cheap injection mold polypropyline, right? Having an impressive amp with fanstastic damping properties is kinda pointless if you have the driver glued or squeezed into place in a blob of plastic because you'll lose it all again due to the lack of mechnical damping. This annoys me a lot as it's so endemic to the headphone industry.

Quote:

The most important problem is headroom.

In terms of transient peaks? You simply need something fast, low in reactance, capable of high pulse power handling, and well able to couple the electrical and mechanical parts of the system together.

 

[tourmaline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carl /img/forum/go_quote.gif Sure. But really synergy is just looking at the system as one entity electrically and mechanically. It's only when you start looking at things discretely, be it on the device level, the part level, that you start losing sight of things. At the end of the day you're just pushing electrons and air around, the little pictures are simply parts of a bigger one. I don't think you'll find anyone who would disagree with the suggestion that better sounding parts sound better. The problem with parts rolling in practice is people tend to lose sight of the big picture both in designing and upgrading, which is why you often see people spend big money on a putting a fancy cap in one part of an amp but leave some nasty electrolytic for the cathode bypasses (where it's directly in the current path) and the like. Understanding how the energy is being transfered and using good parts where it counts is the secret to getting good sound and not spending bajillions in the process. Of course, it's also a very time consuming and mentally draining secret, and there's plenty of people out there who'd rather just hand over a wad of cash for something overpriced and be done with it. Sennheiser have never been at the bleeding edge, really. Even the HE90 is fairly straightforward from a sound production point of view when you think about it, even if it is quite a marvel in terms of materials science. There are a number of really nicely designed headphone drivers in existance. The problem in my mind is the housing designs. You wouldn't pay big bucks for a set of Avant Gardes or Acoustats if they had a housing made of cheap injection mold polypropyline, right? Having an impressive amp with fanstastic damping properties is kinda pointless if you have the driver glued or squeezed into place in a blob of plastic because you'll lose it all again due to the lack of mechnical damping. This annoys me a lot as it's so endemic to the headphone industry. In terms of transient peaks? You simply need something fast, low in reactance, capable of high pulse power handling, and well able to couple the electrical and mechanical parts of the system together.

The mod on my amp is carefully done, don't worry.

I know grado is glueing the rs1. I owned one so i know. I dunno about sennheiser, it's harder to see without taking it apart.

headroom means perception of space, you never get a big space big speakers can create. Also there is no real middle, it's always slightly offset to the left, or to the right. inherant of headphone design.

Simly put: headphone market is not as big as speaker market. If all, headphone sales is a sidestep from speaker market. Sales over here for high end headphones is nothing compared to speaker sales!

 

[Elephas]

I think the idea of a custom-built amp is very attractive, but for me there are also some difficult issues.

Resale value is a big one. A custom amp will probably be more difficult to sell and a bigger discount might be required.

Another is service and support. The builder is the best person to fix it or perform upgrades, but there's a greater risk that a non-commercial DIY amp-maker will become unavailable in the future.

How to find and choose a builder is probably the biggest problem.

 

[Jon L]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carl /img/forum/go_quote.gif The problem in my mind is the housing designs. You wouldn't pay big bucks for a set of Avant Gardes or Acoustats if they had a housing made of cheap injection mold polypropyline, right?

That's also been one of my biggest gripes with these mega-buck horn speakers with plastic horns. I just don't understand why they do this. Edgarhorn's midrange horn is made out of one whole piece of real wood and solid as rock for this reason.

 

[spritzer]

A modded T1 will always be a bad amp. It's a highly compromised design but I like its sound with the Lambda line and many of the older phones and the tubes cost next to nothing so it stays put. It was also free so that might be a factor as well. I even bought a T1W to keep it company. just because it matches the SR-Omega in color..

Krell, Levinson, Lamm and others are only highly priced and not really high end. for me the the dividing point is the willingness to use a cardboard box as a case so you can spend some more on the internal parts.

All jokes aside there aren't really many companies willing to make their own caps, resistors, transformers, volume controls etc. because no stock part is good enough. That is ultra high end and there sits Kondo firmly but other companies are coming around with specially made caps such as ARC, C-J and CAT. It's a good start but not enough. Another worthy contender is Shindo and at a more down to earth price. He gets around the ultra expensive components issue by using old components that were very well made (Sprague caps, Allen Bradley resistors etc.) and he got them for cheap when they were "obsolete". He uses tubes that aren't as popular so they are still cheap and often sound better.

IMO there are two types of synergy. One is where you use the best parts available and they each build on each others strengths and then there is the type where you use the components to make up for the deficiency's of the system as a whole. Slow cables to hide the ugly top end, bloomy tubes to produce more bass etc.

The best custom build is you but there is a lot of knowledge involved and the dangers are very real. Shorting a fully charged 500uf/500v cap will teach you to respect it. When you go even higher in voltage it can arc into your hand i.e. jump through the air. No metal objects on or near you allowed...

The use of plastic in transducers is a bad, bad thing. It's nearly unavoidable with ESL's but use a little as you can get away with. It really gets to me when I hear the housing mucking up the driver at a complex spot by not diffusing the vibrations...

 

[Iron_Dreamer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elephas /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think the idea of a custom-built amp is very attractive, but for me there are also some difficult issues. Resale value is a big one. A custom amp will probably be more difficult to sell and a bigger discount might be required.

But if the custom amp is that great of a performer, why would selling it ever be an issue (unless one bought beyond their means)?