[Triggaaar]

My (very) old headphones have just died (I’m not sad) and so I have the excuse – sorry, need to buy a new pair. Any advice would be much appreciated.
 
Unfortunately I can only get one pair, and I can’t spend (or save up to spend) much on amps (think Fiio level). Use will be mostly while at my PC, but being able to relax on the sofa with them every once in a while would be a bonus. I have studio monitors in my study, so I won’t always needs to use the ‘phones. Mostly pop music (inc rock).
 
I have read and read (and read) through the options. A sad journey, given the musical goal, but a necessary one. I will be auditioning the HD600 and HD650, but I won’t be able to try out anything from Hifiman. I could try the closed planar Oppo PM3s, just to get something different. I’m sure I will like the Sennheisers, they will be a considerable step up from my old cans, but then I will have to take a punt and choose.
 
Here’s an extremely condensed version of what I’ve gleaned so far:
HE400s – poor build quality, easy to drive (22ohms 98dB), good sound quality for the price (replace pads).
HE400i – relatively easy to drive, improved build quality. More sub bass than 400s.
HD600 – further improved build quality. Neutral, easy to listen to for long sessions. Scales well.
HD650 – Similar to HD600. Possibly suffers with a budget amps.
 
I can’t afford to spend a lot on an amp, so I think the HD650 will probably be wasted on me, and it’s at the bottom of my list.
 
I like the thought that I could have the 400s with a cheap amp, and then occasionally take it to another room and run it straight from a portable device. The build quality concerns me though.
 
If I was in the US, I’d have ordered the 400i for $250 already. Sadly on this side of the pond it’s currently the equivalent of $420. I’m keeping my eye out for sales, but there was nothing on Black Friday etc. Can it be driven by a phone for the occasional use?
 
The HD600 is probably a fairly safe choice (both sound and build quality). It’s clearly respected by every reviewer. Not being able to use it away from my PC wouldn’t be the end of the world. The HE400x might be a bit more exciting (perhaps more detail) which appeals to me, at the expense of being an easier listen.
 
The thought of only having one pair of headphones might be enough to bring most of you to tears, but that’s where I’m at. But I do get to listen to stereos around the house, so it’s not like this pair will be my only source of music.
 
With all that in mind (and thank you to anyone who managed to read much of that), what would be your advice?

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triggaaar /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

HD600 – further improved build quality. Neutral, easy to listen to for long sessions. Scales well.

HD650 – Similar to HD600. Possibly suffers with a budget amps.

 

I can’t afford to spend a lot on an amp, so I think the HD650 will probably be wasted on me, and it’s at the bottom of my list.

 

The HD600 and HD650 have the same impedance and barely any difference in sensitivity, and the HD650 is 1dB better actually, so it will be marginally easier to drive than the HD600. That means that on the same amp you can go louder you'd go louder on the HD650 hearing it as it is before the amp starts distorting and changing the signal.

 

If you are basing those observations on qualitative assessments, then what they are hearing isn't an amplifier running out of steam sooner on the HD650, but hearing what the HD650 really​ sounds like, and they have to crank the volume higher to hear the upper midrange better. Not that the only factor here is how the HD650 is weaker than where it is at 1000hz above 3000hz, but also because the HD600 is louder than 1000hz at the same range. In other words, the HD600 is just naturally louder in the upper midrange and lower treble.

 

From my own experience though given the same level of earpad wear (ie if you swapped out earpads when you listen to them briefly back to back, or both are on new earpads), the difference is barely there. You won't notice it until you get to a badly recorded track that the HD600 will make slightly worse but the HD650 will slightly gloss over.

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triggaaar /img/forum/go_quote.gif

The thought of only having one pair of headphones might be enough to bring most of you to tears, but that’s where I’m at. But I do get to listen to stereos around the house, so it’s not like this pair will be my only source of music.

 

Not me, I only have the HD600 on my desktop rig. I have multiple systems only for multiple venus: an ASG-1.3 IEM on the go, plus a BT speaker for the patio. In the process of getting serious speakers for my laptop at my work desk.

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triggaaar /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

With all that in mind (and thank you to anyone who managed to read much of that), what would be your advice?

 

HE400S with any decent portable amp. Never mind the power output, just get one with a very low output impedance.

 

Or get the HD600 and just use it at that one desk. It's all plastic too but the parts should be more acceissible in your location from Sennheiser dealers.

 

[Triggaaar]

Thank you for taking the time to help.
 
I wasn't suggesting the HD600 or 650 need different amounts of power to drive them properly, I referring to the quality of sound. I've read that both scale well with higher quality amps/dacs, and particularly the HD650.
 
It's also confusing, as the 650 appears to have changed over the years, and if now closer to the 600 than it was.
  "You won't notice it until you get to a badly recorded track that the HD600 will make slightly worse but the HD650 will slightly gloss over."
Thanks, that would be a big plus for me, a lot of pop is poorly recorded.
 
"Not me, I only have the HD600 on my desktop rig"
Do you see no advantage in having the 650 instead?
 

"HE400S with any decent portable amp. Never mind the power output, just get one with a very low output impedance."

Thank you. Can you recommend any?

 
"Or get the HD600 and just use it at that one desk. It's all plastic too but the parts should be more acceissible in your location from Sennheiser dealers."
So you don't feel there's a particular sound quality advantage / difference that I should be considering (ie, they're all reasonably neutral and good enough)?
 
Many thanks!

 

[ProtegeManiac]

 
Quote:

 
I wasn't suggesting the HD600 or 650 need different amounts of power to drive them properly, I referring to the quality of sound. I've read that both scale well with higher quality amps/dacs, and particularly the HD650.

 
Well, saying one headphone is harder to drive means precisely that - a higher amount of clean power necessary to drive it loudly. The quality of the sound is affected because as output level rises so do distortion and noise, so the more you crank an amp, the more of those you will get, thus reducing quality.
 
They both scale well with better amps but take note that doesn't mean spending $2,000 on an amp would mean it sounds $1,300 better than a $700 amp.
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triggaaar /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

 

It's also confusing, as the 650 appears to have changed over the years, and if now closer to the 600 than it was.

 

I'm not sure hat you mean by the HD650 changing over the years. If anything maybe six years ago there would be a lot more people using them with lower cost OTL amps like the Little Dot MkII which would have a tendency to make the HD6x0 cans with more worn out pads sound even warmer than the pad wear by itself would do, but now you have more people pairing them with the Magni or the Valhalla for example.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triggaaar /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

Do you see no advantage in having the 650 instead?

 

I personally prefer the HD650 actually, just that I also personally did not consider the $100+ over MSRP worth it for a better color finish and the more forgiving treble response. On top of which I found a used HD600 and paid even less, even after buying new pads.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triggaaar /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

Thank you. Can you recommend any?

 

ibasso D-Zero MkII. The MkIII is on its way so you might want to wait for that one to pop up on Amazon.

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triggaaar /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

So you don't feel there's a particular sound quality advantage / difference that I should be considering (ie, they're all reasonably neutral and good enough)?

 

Reasonably neutral just not in the same way, ie, they're not absolutely neutral in different ways.

 

[Monsterzero]

FWIW when i was trying to decide between HD600 and HD650 way back when i found amps that could easily drive the 600 struggled with muddiness on the 650(im assuming due to midbass hump).

I was testing w/ portable amps and recall only hearing one(dont recall which it was) that made the muddiness go away.

I will also mention that I ended up getting the HD600 and used it for years as my gaming headphones...an Astro Mixamp Pro drove it to near earsplitting levels...so its not terribly hard to drive.

 

[Triggaaar]

Firstly, I'm going to have to learn to use this editor, so that my quotes don't look so rubbish
 
"Well, saying one headphone is harder to drive means precisely that"
I'm just double checking my original post - either you misread or I'm confused, I didn't say the 650 was harder to drive. I said the 650 'Possibly suffers with a budget amps', so I was meaning low quality amps, not low power ones.
 
Are you saying the only reason the HD650 suffers if you don't spend a lot on an amp is because mid range amps aren't producing clean enough power? If so, ok, then all I'm saying is that I've read that the 650 needs cleaner power (more expensive) than the 600. And if that's wrong, cool, but I've read that several times.
  "They both scale well with better amps but take note that doesn't mean spending $2,000 on an amp would mean it sounds $1,300 better than a $700 amp."
Understood. Law of diminishing returns etc.
 
But perhaps:
HE400i with $50 amp beats HD650 with $50 amp
but
HD650 with $800 amp beats HE400i with $800 amp
 
"I'm not sure hat you mean by the HD650 changing over the years"
I've read on here that Sennheiser have modified it, so the HD650 you buy today is not like the original HD650.
 
If that's not right, it's funny, because several owners here have said it.
 
"I personally prefer the HD650 actually, just that I also personally did not consider the $100+ over MSRP worth it for a better color finish and the more forgiving treble response. On top of which I found a used HD600 and paid even less, even after buying new pads."
Understood.
 
"ibasso D-Zero MkII."
Cool, but they don't seem to be an option in the UK (at least, not for fair prices). Unless I can get it direct.
 
"Reasonably neutral just not in the same way, ie, they're not absolutely neutral in different ways."
Thanks.
 
Thanks again for all the help.

 

[buke9]

My (very) old headphones have just died (I’m not sad) and so I have the excuse – sorry, need to buy a new pair. Any advice would be much appreciated.

Unfortunately I can only get one pair, and I can’t spend (or save up to spend) much on amps (think Fiio level). Use will be mostly while at my PC, but being able to relax on the sofa with them every once in a while would be a bonus. I have studio monitors in my study, so I won’t always needs to use the ‘phones. Mostly pop music (inc rock).

I have read and read (and read) through the options. A sad journey, given the musical goal, but a necessary one. I will be auditioning the HD600 and HD650, but I won’t be able to try out anything from Hifiman. I could try the closed planar Oppo PM3s, just to get something different. I’m sure I will like the Sennheisers, they will be a considerable step up from my old cans, but then I will have to take a punt and choose.

Here’s an extremely condensed version of what I’ve gleaned so far:
HE400s – poor build quality, easy to drive (22ohms 98dB), good sound quality for the price (replace pads).
HE400i – relatively easy to drive, improved build quality. More sub bass than 400s.
HD600 – further improved build quality. Neutral, easy to listen to for long sessions. Scales well.
HD650 – Similar to HD600. Possibly suffers with a budget amps.

I can’t afford to spend a lot on an amp, so I think the HD650 will probably be wasted on me, and it’s at the bottom of my list.

I like the thought that I could have the 400s with a cheap amp, and then occasionally take it to another room and run it straight from a portable device. The build quality concerns me though.

If I was in the US, I’d have ordered the 400i for $250 already. Sadly on this side of the pond it’s currently the equivalent of $420. I’m keeping my eye out for sales, but there was nothing on Black Friday etc. Can it be driven by a phone for the occasional use?

The HD600 is probably a fairly safe choice (both sound and build quality). It’s clearly respected by every reviewer. Not being able to use it away from my PC wouldn’t be the end of the world. The HE400x might be a bit more exciting (perhaps more detail) which appeals to me, at the expense of being an easier listen.

The thought of only having one pair of headphones might be enough to bring most of you to tears, but that’s where I’m at. But I do get to listen to stereos around the house, so it’s not like this pair will be my only source of music.

With all that in mind (and thank you to anyone who managed to read much of that), what would be your advice?

Where is this HE 400S has poor build quality coming from? I've had mine for over a year and I'm not real easy on headphones so what is this about?

 

[Triggaaar]

Where is this HE 400S has poor build quality coming from? I've had mine for over a year and I'm not real easy on headphones so what is this about?

I'm glad you're finding yours good.
 
Reviews on materials used and build quality for the standard (not inexpensive) price are not good. The worst review I've seen regarding build quality and also the overall performance is on YT from metal571. Pretty much every other review I've seen has praised the sound quality for the price, although several have said that the build quality is not on a par with its rivals (lihe the Phillips X2, Senn HD6xx etc).