Amps are overated?

[TheMarchingMule]

...Okay, I take it back then.

 

[Chef Medeski]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dugq /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm new to the headphone game but this is my experience over the last few months. I bought a pair of K701s but had to use my integrated amp's headphone output. Overall, I wasn't impressed but wasn't expecting to be since I had heard that the K701s needed their own amp. I then bought the X-CAN V3 with the X-PSU (I already had the X-DAC 3 so it seemed like the sensible choice). Again, I wasn't impressed, in truth I couldn't notice any difference at all. I then performed the capacitor and diode upgrades sold by rock grotto and replaced the valves with a pair of mullard e88cc. absolutely wonderful. So, in my limited experience, I would say that amplification in itself may not have any audible results, but the right ampliication can make all the difference in the world.

Thats true. I've only used the Tomahawk and Bithead. I dont know Im interested in trying one of Dr.Xin's amps but not for now as I'm havign a little budget crisis. Maybe at a meet.

 

[ast]

with my limited headfi experience (less than a month), I would agree Heahphone Amp may not make big enough difference to justify the price.

When i first checked in Head-fi.com, I wan looking for my first headphones since night listening disturbs my young kids. I wanted to to straight high level and then decide what to afterwards.

For headphones, thanks for all the info from this forum, I ordered the following to the following:

--AKG K701
--ATH-AD2000
--Shure E500 PTH
--Etymotic ER-4S

but I couldn't get any decisive info on Amps. I will only want an Amp for my office at work, where I will be using computer/iTune --> digital out. So I want decent DAC/Amp combo. From the header list of this site, I get into Headroom.com and seems they are quite reputable and high quality vendor. So I ordered pretty much their top-of-the-line gear:

Desktop Amp + MAX Amp module + MAX DAC + Stepped Antenuator + Separate Desktop Power Supply = $2016.

Since I want smaller footprint and only one phone output, I didn't feel like the MAX Amp model. According to HeadRoom, the combo I got performs almost exactly the same as MAX Amp.

Ok, got all the shippment the last two weeks. I started quite intensive A/Bing.

--First thing out is the Ety ER-4S, no bass and too lean. returned back to Amazon.
-- Shure E500: awesome! good is almost everyway, sound, comfort, low profile. a keeper.
--Audio-Technica AD2000: awesome! great overall except quite uncomfortable to my ears! the sound is so much like my speakers. The bass is much better than K701. Sounds fuller as well. Sounds flawless.
-- K701. GREAT! so neutral and clear. I literally hear each individual instruments without fatigue. Soundstage is wonderfully wide and well postiioned. But I don't want keep too many headphones around so decided to let this one, but I'm a little regretted already!

Ok, the HR DAC/Amp. I was expecting quite dramatic improvement over the company issued desktop computre soundcard output. I used Apple Lossless format and iTune, then USB digital output to the Amp. To my shock, I honestly couldn't hear much of a difference. I kept changing genre to test base, treble, stage, image, female vocal, male vocal, fast, slow, ..... Is there a difference, yes only sometimes yet they very subtle indeed. There is one track that computer soundcard has static noises, while HR smoothed it out quite nicely, so I know the HR DAC does a better job here. But does it worth > $2000 ? not in my judgement. I don't mind the price at all, in fact I was planning to spend more, but I'd like to get matching return from it. So the whole thing stopped me from moving on the Amp ladder.

FYI, here is the excerpt from Heedroom about the DAC/Amp:


-----------------------------------
Digital to Analog Converter (DAC) Options

Now, on to the various available Desktop Amp DAC options. The basic 'Desktop' DAC is based on the Cirrus CS4398 chip which is their top-of-the-line, flagship DAC. There is actually not too much we can do here to make it sound even better but, as always, we give it a darn good shot!...

...

The other thing that can be done for ultra hot-rodded DAC performance is to insert an asynchronous sample rate converter and do a bit of fancy up-sampling and complex de-jittering. Well, that’s precisely what we've done in the 'Max' DAC. A lovely AD1896 chip lives between the digital receiver and the DAC. It takes the incoming digital data, stores it, up-samples it, interpolates it, picks a nice juicy word, and then clocks it out right on time. The thing probably does more complex math in half a millisecond than you’ve done with a calculator in your entire life!

-----------------

Electronics Module Options

The 'electronics module' is the internal circuit board chiefly responsible for the amp's sound quality. Because it will cost significantly more to swap or change later on, the first option you should consider is which freshly-revised HeadRoom electronics module to have installed within the Desktop Amp. The Desktop Amp comes stock with the very punchy, articulate and authoritative 'Desktop module'. This is a superb-sounding, crisply-detailed and exquisitely well-balanced module choice and will deliver more than enough robust audio performance for most discriminating listeners.

...

The top-of-the-line 'Max' electronics module is physically quite a bit larger to accommodate the one-to-a-package Burr-Brown OPA627 op-amps. These parts are some of the most expensive audio op-amps money can buy, and they are totally worth it. Liquid-quick, transparent, intricately detailed highs and a deeply textural, rich bass response bracket an organically ultra-smooth & silky midrange. We are head-deep into serious Class-A operation here, folks! In the 'Max' module, absolutely NO expense is spared right down to the gold coated, double-thick 2 oz. copper-traced, four-layer circuit board... Woo-Hoo! Long live the HeadRoom module king!
----------------------------------



I tend to agree with some fellow posters there that headphones count more than 90% of the sound quality, given reasonable price consideration.


...

 

[YoungClayB]

Ok, so here's my take...

I use a 4th gen B&W ipod as my source and I have triple.fi 10 pros and recently purchased a tomahawk/cryo micro combo. The total cost ended up being a little over 400 bucks.

Yes, the sound is better, but 400 dollars better? I'm not so sure.

I feel like my money might have been better spent on a new 80GB 5th gen iPod instead. A friend of mine has a 5th gen iPod and the headphone out on his iPod sounds WAY better than the headphone put on my 4th gen iPod. (almost as good as the tomahawk/cyro micro)

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Dept_of_Alchemy]

I'm surprised to hear that the best from HeadRoom is only marginally better than a stock computer soundcard...

I like to compare this hobby to wine tasting quite a bit. A $10 bottle of Merlot is going to taste pretty much the same as a $200 bottle if you've never had wine before.

 

[NanduAjit]

I guess it also has to do with the type of music and the quality of recording you listen to. The most important link in an audio system is the recording, and if thats not good it doesnt matter what stuff you put in between that and the headphones, dirt in-dirt out. For my home setup the dedicated headphone amp makes worlds of difference, but im hesitant to get a small amp the size of a cigarrete pack for $350 for portable listening. I wonder what the profit margin on this type of amp will be??. I should start up a company,build the amps in my homeland of India

, but it might still be more expensive than the chinese products, damn

. Also i tend to insist on better sound quality more at home than on a bus or train, I just need to hear music to keep me entertained when im out. Thats just me, everyones different and thats whats so good about this site, all the unbiased opinions come through. Bravo.

 

[Lord Chaos]

I tend to solve problems only when the problem appears. It can be restated as "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

I started recording things with a mono tape recorder (Voice of Music) and a microphone when I was, oh, 10 years old? I took it with me to college and bought an old turntable to plug into its magnetic input, and then bought a better speaker to go with it. Over the ensuing years I spent a lot of money on better equipment: Citation amplifiers, Thorens turntable, dbx noise reduction, Advent cassette deck, etc. Eventually I looked at all this high-priced gear compared to the miniscule record collection, and decided to change my priorities. I then went for the 95th percentile, and called it good enough. A CD player that had been a demo unit, and a Proton integrated amp that was on sale. Everything sort of balanced out, and I had money to buy CDs.

Recently I upset the balance with Shure E500 IEMs. With those I heard the deficiencies in the Squeezebox, so I bought a DAC1 to solve the problem. Yep. That solved the problem. I just ordered a second DAC1, this one with USB input, for the main system to replace the Sony pre-amp and its over-bright DAC. It will also take an input from the Powerbook, whose analog circuitry is noisy.

So... no matter where you start, you end up spending money. Just make sure that spending the money brings you what you want and not what someone else says you need.

It also helps if the new item improves the quality of your life...

 

[Spookykinkajou]

Quote:

Originally Posted by YoungClayB /img/forum/go_quote.gif Ok, so here's my take... I use a 4th gen B&W ipod as my source and I have triple.fi 10 pros and recently purchased a tomahawk/cryo micro combo. The total cost ended up being a little over 400 bucks. Yes, the sound is better, but 400 dollars better? I'm not so sure. I feel like my money might have been better spent on a new 80GB 5th gen iPod instead. A friend of mine has a 5th gen iPod and the headphone out on his iPod sounds WAY better than the headphone put on my 4th gen iPod. (almost as good as the tomahawk/cyro micro) Just my 2 cents.

After reading your post, I decided to a/b my TH/jumbo cryo/e500/ipod vs e500/ipod.

After fiddling with the volume trying to make it as equal as possible I went back and forth between a few songs I know. The recordings are all apple lossless.

To be honest, I'm very hard pressed to hear a difference. In other words, i can't. maybe if i listened A LOT more I could...but for commuting I don't think I'd ever notice.

The way I see it the amp just mostly gives you more volume. At first that is probably why I thought it was better. i was just hurting my ears!

I do hear the hiss from the ipod with just the e500 plugged in. That is the only noticeable difference. and it's gone once the music starts.
i wish I had tested this earlier but i always just assumed the amp/cable were better and just kept buying new gear!

 

[Coltrane]

And the Tomahawk and ALO are already on sale!

I think the reference to wine was the most on point. The differences are no doubt VERY real to some people, but is it really worth the price and aggravation? Especially because some palettes just wont ever get developed? There is just simply WAY too much hyperbole on this site, and thats how the newbies keep getting sucked in. Just be upfront that the differences get very subtle very quickly once you hit a certain level.

 

[Kees]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coltrane /img/forum/go_quote.gif And the Tomahawk and ALO are already on sale! I think the reference to wine was the most on point. The differences are no doubt VERY real to some people, but is it really worth the price and aggravation? Especially because some palettes just wont ever get developed? There is just simply WAY too much hyperbole on this site, and thats how the newbies keep getting sucked in. Just be upfront that the differences get very subtle very quickly once you hit a certain level.

I think you are perfectly right.
On the other hand: for some people these subtle nuance are very real and very important. And they are the people that want to talk about that on forums like these.....and be unreservedly enthousiastic about it. I don't see why they should be critisized for that.

 

[granodemostasa]

amps are overrated. long live the Source!


seriously, headroom isn't the best buy for 2K, it just isn't. i've always gotten some pretty good SQ jumps when i make a price jump, but at the bottom, it can get very messy... especially with little amps and portable stuff.

 

[Spookykinkajou]

I think one reason I got really caught up in this hobby was the reviews. I was always reading I could expect great things from such and such amp or headphone.

I'm mostly interested in commuting thus I focused on reviews like Skylabs portable round up and obviously read about a thousand other pages on various amps. I've come to notice a lot of the reviews are usually done using full sized headphones even with portable amps like the Tomahawk, which in my opinion, has really thrown me off course. I've gone from super.fi 5 pro to e500 but I got the e500 when I received the TH so I never tried them unamped. I found them to be superior to the super.fi in pretty much every way.

Today I a/b'd the TH and e500 with a jumbo cryo/ipod and only the e500 out of the 5G ipod headphone amp. I really could not tell much of a difference sonically. I did notice the hiss reduction from the TH. But once the music is on I hear no hiss at all unamped. I guess I think it sounds good enough to me. Saves a little bulk and weight as well as $490.

I came home and since I had been comparing stuff I figured I should be comprehensive so I plugged the Tomahawk in to the squeezebox through a decent monster rca to mini that was designed for the ipod. I used the dt990 on hi gain at about 50% on the TH and adjusted the squeezebox to the appropriate volume. I was very impressed and am inclined to say it may even sound better than my corda aria powering the dt990. It's too early to be positive, but it seems to my ears to have better detail, soundstage, and stronger bass.

I must admit I'm very surprised to hear the dt990 so nicely from the TH. When I used the ipod or computer as a source to the TH it sounded nowhere near as good.

 

[melomaniac]

loved the wine comp. (and was also reminded of the single malt whisky thread elsewhere on head-fi). the diminishing returns on higher expenditure are a universal phenomenon, it seems - and yet: enough people go the extra mile. call it gadget love! this does not mean headphone amps are overrated: it means, merely, that some people will get more enjoyment than others (presumably in the same 80/20 proportion, I guess one in five will find it really worth it). I for one opted for the (relatively cheap) total bithead for sonic reasons (and because it saves battery life on the iPod and on the laptop), although I know I could do a lot better if I was willing to spend more (diminishing marginal returns being related to the law of increasing opportunity cost as well as the $ hitting your wallet when you click on pixels and wait for the mailman).

 

[ast]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dept_of_Alchemy /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm surprised to hear that the best from HeadRoom is only marginally better than a stock computer soundcard... I like to compare this hobby to wine tasting quite a bit. A $10 bottle of Merlot is going to taste pretty much the same as a $200 bottle if you've never had wine before.

I was more than surprised by the outcome myself. I guess you analogy of wine has some truth in it -- I have little expereince with Headfi, less than a month, although has been involved with HiFi for quite a few years. Even over there I find power Amps have very minimal effect on the sound quality. Maybe just my ears

 

[vcoheda]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dept_of_Alchemy /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm surprised to hear that the best from HeadRoom is only marginally better than a stock computer soundcard...

I know you heard what you heard, but that just can't be right. Either that or we have all been drinking the kool aid for too long.