Amplification for K712

[Fors10]

Hey, I'm new to these forums and this is my first post. Been lurking around a couple months and decided to jump in it.

I've had a pair of K712 pros for about 2 weeks now. Prior to that, I've had and still have the K550 and K601. I am not an audiophile (yet) by any means in terms of knowledge and gear as well as analytical listening "skill", but I'm getting there. I currently play my music from 2015 MBP to a local Finnish Dac/Amp called "Procaster Dac-03". It's a portable(I suppose) amp, although I use it mainly at home. It's claimed to drive HP's up to 300 ohms. Very similar to the NuForce uDac 3, but has received better reviews in comparisons etc.

Here's the most relevant specs of the Dac/Amp:

Spoiler

- Plug & play
- 24-bit / 96 kHz
- Output power 350 mW @ 32 ohm
- HP impedance 16-300 ohm
- Signal to noise 110 dB
- THD+N: 0,009 @ 1 kHz
- Micro-USB powered
- RCA & 3,5mm HP outputs
- Texas Instruments TAS1020B Dac chip

I should probably also mention that due to limited storage on my laptop and the fact I like having synchronized playlists on all my devices, I use 99% of time Spotify Prem HQ (320 kbps Ogg) as my source.

So, I know that my current amplification isn't even close to what these K712's would deserve, therefore I require some contribution in regards to it. I live in Finland, and it's unfortunate we don't have too vast selection for different manufacturers here... My current Dac/amp set me back 90€. What is recommended to amplify these HP's? Tube/Solid state, what brand, what model? etc. Price range can vary from 100 to 500.

From what I can find from my local supply is pretty much a narrow line of choices. Brands like CA DacMagics( XS, 100, Plus), LehmannAudio amps, Beyerdynamic A20, none of those FiiO or Schiit line that seems to be pretty popular here. Generally, there's very few tube amps that I could find... Even searched through some german sites like Thomann.

I can tell my current Dac/Amp is either horrible quality or then my MBP HP jack is somewhat mediocre. There's very little difference between them... The MBP has a warmer sound signature, bit punchier and deeper(more present) bass reproduction, whereas the Procaster concentrates on being very bright, on the cost of some low end presence. I'm looking for a set up that delivers a natural warmish sound that reflects as if I was listening to the tune live. Notes that are meant to be punchy and deep has to be punchy and deep, same concept with the highs. My MBP seems to actually deliver better overall sound over the Procaster... But then the MBP lacks power to drive these, requiring about 70-80% power for average volume, whereas the Procaster requires 40-45%, which puts me into using Procaster.

Also, someone enlighten me if Texas Instruments has any foothold in the DAC scene. I've no idea if it's a decent or a garbage brand. I could literally find no info or any reviews/discussion about TI Dac chips in general. The MBP uses a Cirrus 4208 CRZ.

Selling the K712 is not an option, I love them. Pls, help or educate me better.

Edit: Don't get me wrong, the K712's still sound fairly amazing with current set up, at least to my ears, but I'm fairly certain I could make them sound even better, use more of their potential.

 

[cossix]

Hey, I'm new to these forums and this is my first post. Been lurking around a couple months and decided to jump in it.

I've had a pair of K712 pros for about 2 weeks now. Prior to that, I've had and still have the K550 and K601. I am not an audiophile (yet) by any means in terms of knowledge and gear as well as analytical listening "skill", but I'm getting there. I currently play my music from 2015 MBP to a local Finnish Dac/Amp called "Procaster Dac-03". It's a portable(I suppose) amp, although I use it mainly at home. It's claimed to drive HP's up to 300 ohms. Very similar to the NuForce uDac 3, but has received better reviews in comparisons etc.

Here's the most relevant specs of the Dac/Amp:

Spoiler

- Plug & play
- 24-bit / 96 kHz
- Output power 350 mW @ 32 ohm
- HP impedance 16-300 ohm
- Signal to noise 110 dB
- THD+N: 0,009 @ 1 kHz
- Micro-USB powered
- RCA & 3,5mm HP outputs
- Texas Instruments TAS1020B Dac chip

I should probably also mention that due to limited storage on my laptop and the fact I like having synchronized playlists on all my devices, I use 99% of time Spotify Prem HQ (320 kbps Ogg) as my source.

So, I know that my current amplification isn't even close to what these K712's would deserve, therefore I require some contribution in regards to it. I live in Finland, and it's unfortunate we don't have too vast selection for different manufacturers here... My current Dac/amp set me back 90€. What is recommended to amplify these HP's? Tube/Solid state, what brand, what model? etc. Price range can vary from 100 to 500.

From what I can find from my local supply is pretty much a narrow line of choices. Brands like CA DacMagics( XS, 100, Plus), LehmannAudio amps, Beyerdynamic A20, none of those FiiO or Schiit line that seems to be pretty popular here. Generally, there's very few tube amps that I could find... Even searched through some german sites like Thomann.

I can tell my current Dac/Amp is either horrible quality or then my MBP HP jack is somewhat mediocre. There's very little difference between them... The MBP has a warmer sound signature, bit punchier and deeper(more present) bass reproduction, whereas the Procaster concentrates on being very bright, on the cost of some low end presence. I'm looking for a set up that delivers a natural warmish sound that reflects as if I was listening to the tune live. Notes that are meant to be punchy and deep has to be punchy and deep, same concept with the highs. My MBP seems to actually deliver better overall sound over the Procaster... But then the MBP lacks power to drive these, requiring about 70-80% power for average volume, whereas the Procaster requires 40-45%, which puts me into using Procaster.

Also, someone enlighten me if Texas Instruments has any foothold in the DAC scene. I've no idea if it's a decent or a garbage brand. I could literally find no info or any reviews/discussion about TI Dac chips in general. The MBP uses a Cirrus 4208 CRZ.

Selling the K712 is not an option, I love them. Pls, help or educate me better.

Edit: Don't get me wrong, the K712's still sound fairly amazing with current set up, at least to my ears, but I'm fairly certain I could make them sound even better, use more of their potential.

I'm not extremely well-versed in dac chips but the Texas Instruments chip seems to be a budget one. Usually the Sabre chip is what people want. Schiit has a solid lineup of good amps, and FiiO owns the portable amp market in terms of affordable picks. Magni 3 is essentially the best amp under $100 but you'd have to see if that sounds good with the AKG. Some headphones are picky

 

[cossix]

If you can find a Chord Mojo, that's a great piece if gear and measures better than stuff twice its price

 

[Anaz]

Hey, I'm new to these forums and this is my first post. Been lurking around a couple months and decided to jump in it.

I've had a pair of K712 pros for about 2 weeks now. Prior to that, I've had and still have the K550 and K601. I am not an audiophile (yet) by any means in terms of knowledge and gear as well as analytical listening "skill", but I'm getting there. I currently play my music from 2015 MBP to a local Finnish Dac/Amp called "Procaster Dac-03". It's a portable(I suppose) amp, although I use it mainly at home. It's claimed to drive HP's up to 300 ohms. Very similar to the NuForce uDac 3, but has received better reviews in comparisons etc.

...

So, I know that my current amplification isn't even close to what these K712's would deserve, therefore I require some contribution in regards to it. I live in Finland, and it's unfortunate we don't have too vast selection for different manufacturers here... My current Dac/amp set me back 90€. What is recommended to amplify these HP's? Tube/Solid state, what brand, what model? etc. Price range can vary from 100 to 500.

For the AKG K712 Pro I'd recommend an amp that can provide a lot of current, a solid state or hybrid amp with a warm-ish sound - e.g. a Chord Mojo or Audio-GD R2R 11* (or NFB11.28 ... Audio-GD can be bought from European distributors). I think the sound of a tube amp will work against the detailed nature of AKG 7-series sound, a warm-ish amp will not emphasize the AKG 7-series' sibilance, and the power is required to bring out the K712's 3db low boost.

* Funnily enough, I have an R2R 11 and am thinking of buying a K712.

 

[Monsterzero]

For the AKG K712 Pro I'd recommend an amp that can provide a lot of current, a solid state or hybrid amp with a warm-ish sound - e.g. a Chord Mojo or Audio-GD R2R 11* (or NFB11.28 ... Audio-GD can be bought from European distributors). I think the sound of a tube amp will work against the detailed nature of AKG 7-series sound, a warm-ish amp will not emphasize the AKG 7-series' sibilance, and the power is required to bring out the K712's 3db low boost.

* Funnily enough, I have an R2R 11 and am thinking of buying a K712.

+1

I like the R2R-11 very much and agree that it pairs well with bright-ish headphones.
The Mojo is a wonderful piece of kit as well,however the sound stage it throws is a bit narrow vs. R2R-11,which kinda diminishes one of the K712's strong points.

 

[YJX94]

K712 is a picky little b.a.s.t.a.r.d when it comes to amping, tube amps sound great with it though. I'm currently running it off an O2+ODAC with no complaints but will be upgrading to NFB-11/R2R-11.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

I live in Finland, and it's unfortunate we don't have too vast selection for different manufacturers here... My current Dac/amp set me back 90€. What is recommended to amplify these HP's? Tube/Solid state, what brand, what model? etc. Price range can vary from 100 to 500.

From what I can find from my local supply is pretty much a narrow line of choices. Brands like CA DacMagics( XS, 100, Plus), LehmannAudio amps, Beyerdynamic A20, none of those FiiO or Schiit line that seems to be pretty popular here. Generally, there's very few tube amps that I could find... Even searched through some german sites like Thomann.

If your DAC has a fixed level line out through its RCA output you can just get an amp like the Meier Jazz FF. Meier prices include shipping and EU VAT where applicable. Best part is, Germany's not too far off, so if you have to ship it for warranty or even out of warranty repairs, at least shipping won't kill your wallet.

Oh and don't look through Thomann - they're more on pro audio. As much as the same headphones are used most of the upstream components there are studio components where 1) you also pay for the mic preamp and ADC circuit as much as the DAC and amp side and 2) even if you spend a lot of money, most of them have a high output impedance on the headphone output and not as much power for the money as dedicated headphone amps and DAC-HPamps.

I can tell my current Dac/Amp is either horrible quality or then my MBP HP jack is somewhat mediocre. There's very little difference between them... The MBP has a warmer sound signature, bit punchier and deeper(more present) bass reproduction, whereas the Procaster concentrates on being very bright, on the cost of some low end presence.

Could be high output impedance on the MBP boosting the bass. Or on both - MBP does that and the Procaster does the opposite. Or the Procaster specs aren't all that accurate adn you're getting a lot of distortion going that way at your listening level.

Or maybe the Procaster isn't distorting and you're hearing what the K712 sounds like, which, despite having stronger and deeper bass than the K702, also has a bigger treble peak.

I'm looking for a set up that delivers a natural warmish sound that reflects as if I was listening to the tune live.

Meier Jazz FF. Never too warm to colour the sound badly, but when distortion sets in it gets smoother than how other amps do the opposite and makes the treble on the headphones worse. Or save up more and get Violectric - generally same effect on sound but it runs at Class A/B (as opposed to Meier's amps pushed for more Class A bias) and pushes more power.

That said, what exactly is your standard for "live?" Because in my case live music is either a tinny sound in an open air location or woolly bass guitars, overpowering drums, barely audible vocals in enclosed locations.

Also, someone enlighten me if Texas Instruments has any foothold in the DAC scene. I've no idea if it's a decent or a garbage brand. I could literally find no info or any reviews/discussion about TI Dac chips in general. The MBP uses a Cirrus 4208 CRZ.

I wouldn't get too caught up on the DACs - it still depends on the circuit design. Four years ago I tested several CDPs using Wolfson WM8740, some Cirrus 4396 and 4398, and whatever NAD uses. NAD came out number two, one Wolfson unit sounded dark, Cirrus units were the same brand and had sharper treble and while the response balance seemed OK the bass drums were the least imaged behind the vocals (in fact, in the entry level Cambridge, the bass sounded like it was coming from in front of the vocals).

What came out on top? Arcam CD72 had the best tonal balance and best imaging. Used a Burson PCM1716. Note that at the time WM8740 and WM8741 was all the rage as much as Sabre chips are now.

 

[Fors10]

If you can find a Chord Mojo, that's a great piece if gear and measures better than stuff twice its price

For the AKG K712 Pro I'd recommend an amp that can provide a lot of current, a solid state or hybrid amp with a warm-ish sound - e.g. a Chord Mojo or Audio-GD R2R 11* (or NFB11.28 ... Audio-GD can be bought from European distributors). I think the sound of a tube amp will work against the detailed nature of AKG 7-series sound, a warm-ish amp will not emphasize the AKG 7-series' sibilance, and the power is required to bring out the K712's 3db low boost.

* Funnily enough, I have an R2R 11 and am thinking of buying a K712.

+1

I like the R2R-11 very much and agree that it pairs well with bright-ish headphones.
The Mojo is a wonderful piece of kit as well,however the sound stage it throws is a bit narrow vs. R2R-11,which kinda diminishes one of the K712's strong points.

If your DAC has a fixed level line out through its RCA output you can just get an amp like the Meier Jazz FF. Meier prices include shipping and EU VAT where applicable. Best part is, Germany's not too far off, so if you have to ship it for warranty or even out of warranty repairs, at least shipping won't kill your wallet.

Oh and don't look through Thomann - they're more on pro audio. As much as the same headphones are used most of the upstream components there are studio components where 1) you also pay for the mic preamp and ADC circuit as much as the DAC and amp side and 2) even if you spend a lot of money, most of them have a high output impedance on the headphone output and not as much power for the money as dedicated headphone amps and DAC-HPamps.




Could be high output impedance on the MBP boosting the bass. Or on both - MBP does that and the Procaster does the opposite. Or the Procaster specs aren't all that accurate adn you're getting a lot of distortion going that way at your listening level.

Or maybe the Procaster isn't distorting and you're hearing what the K712 sounds like, which, despite having stronger and deeper bass than the K702, also has a bigger treble peak.




Meier Jazz FF. Never too warm to colour the sound badly, but when distortion sets in it gets smoother than how other amps do the opposite and makes the treble on the headphones worse. Or save up more and get Violectric - generally same effect on sound but it runs at Class A/B (as opposed to Meier's amps pushed for more Class A bias) and pushes more power.

That said, what exactly is your standard for "live?" Because in my case live music is either a tinny sound in an open air location or woolly bass guitars, overpowering drums, barely audible vocals in enclosed locations.




I wouldn't get too caught up on the DACs - it still depends on the circuit design. Four years ago I tested several CDPs using Wolfson WM8740, some Cirrus 4396 and 4398, and whatever NAD uses. NAD came out number two, one Wolfson unit sounded dark, Cirrus units were the same brand and had sharper treble and while the response balance seemed OK the bass drums were the least imaged behind the vocals (in fact, in the entry level Cambridge, the bass sounded like it was coming from in front of the vocals).

What came out on top? Arcam CD72 had the best tonal balance and best imaging. Used a Burson PCM1716. Note that at the time WM8740 and WM8741 was all the rage as much as Sabre chips are now.

Thanks for all the input guys, really appreciate it. I'll try to have a look at the Chord Mojo, Audio-GD and the Jazz FF since they've clearly received some decent reviews. Also seems like the Jazz FF is in "november sale" for 260€.

Also, @ProtegeManiac, what do you think of the WM8740 chip? More specifically, the CA DacMagic Plus. It uses that Wolfson, infact two of them. How would the CA perform on the 712's? It's specced for cans up to 600 ohm. For instance, the 100 version uses a single WM8742 and the XS uses an ESS Sabre.

Generally, I'm looking forward to upgrade to a full dedicated home desktop amp/preamp, which has more features than a micro-usb port and a headphone jack. It needs to have features so that I can hook up my 2.1 active speaker system into it and have some room in connectivity incase I decide to upgrade my speaker system to something bigger.. Currently I'm using the procaster's RCA output to connect the 2.0 pair and then I've got my sub hooked to the active speakers' sub out.

I'd prefer if I could hook everything up to one device, but I'm open to the idea of a seperate DAC and HP amplifier combo, just need to keep the overall price below 500€. I'd prefer to buy from a local store, but buying from a 'known' and trusted international retailer or the company itself is not an issue.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Thanks for all the input guys, really appreciate it. I'll try to have a look at the Chord Mojo, Audio-GD and the Jazz FF since they've clearly received some decent reviews. Also seems like the Jazz FF is in "november sale" for 260€.

Corda Jazz is on sale for 260€.

Corda Jazz FF is going for 340€ - still a sale since the regular price is over 425€.

Also, @ProtegeManiac, what do you think of the WM8740 chip? More specifically, the CA DacMagic Plus. It uses that Wolfson, infact two of them. How would the CA perform on the 712's? It's specced for cans up to 600 ohm. For instance, the 100 version uses a single WM8742 and the XS uses an ESS Sabre.

Like I said, I wouldn't get caught up on the DAC chips, it's the circuit that really matters. AudioGD DAC-HPamps that use the WM8740 sound smooth, Cambridge 8xxC CDP is good; Cambridge 350C put the bass drum in front of the vocals on headphones, 650C had no depth at all on headphones (not surprising) but did better on speakers; Rega Saturn was noticeably darker sounding and I'm not talking about low noise black background.

Generally, I'm looking forward to upgrade to a full dedicated home desktop amp/preamp, which has more features than a micro-usb port and a headphone jack. It needs to have features so that I can hook up my 2.1 active speaker system into it and have some room in connectivity incase I decide to upgrade my speaker system to something bigger.. Currently I'm using the procaster's RCA output to connect the 2.0 pair and then I've got my sub hooked to the active speakers' sub out.

I'd prefer if I could hook everything up to one device, but I'm open to the idea of a seperate DAC and HP amplifier combo, just need to keep the overall price below 500€. I'd prefer to buy from a local store, but buying from a 'known' and trusted international retailer or the company itself is not an issue.

You can't use the Meier Corda Jazz FF for that. It has no preamplifier output. Even if you can double your budget and go one tier higher the DACcord has the preamp output, not the Classic. Seems weird but I consider it kind of smart no need to switch on the headphone amp or pull headphones off the socket to run the speakers.

Also, you're not going to find one with microUSB input. They're either desktop units with USB-B and sometimes preamp output to active speakers or power amps driving passive speakers, or you have a portable DAC-HPamp that uses microUSB but at best has only fixed voltage line output from its DAC with no preamp control. Other desktop units that don't use USB-B use USB-A to hook up iOS (and sometimes also Android) devices.

At that price point your choices are:
Schiit Modi2 + Magni3 or Vali2
AudioGD NFB-11 (no EU dealer with EU taxes applied to advertised price so no idea how much the total will be when it gets there)

 

[Fors10]

Corda Jazz is on sale for 260€.

Corda Jazz FF is going for 340€ - still a sale since the regular price is over 425€.

My bad, thanks for the clarification.

Like I said, I wouldn't get caught up on the DAC chips, it's the circuit that really matters. AudioGD DAC-HPamps that use the WM8740 sound smooth, Cambridge 8xxC CDP is good; Cambridge 350C put the bass drum in front of the vocals on headphones, 650C had no depth at all on headphones (not surprising) but did better on speakers; Rega Saturn was noticeably darker sounding and I'm not talking about low noise black background.

You're most probably right, I should pipe it down on just comparing what chip is in which dac. I'm still in a learning and understanding process of this industry, so I may sometime focus on the irrelevant parts, haha.

You can't use the Meier Corda Jazz FF for that. It has no preamplifier output. Even if you can double your budget and go one tier higher the DACcord has the preamp output, not the Classic. Seems weird but I consider it kind of smart no need to switch on the headphone amp or pull headphones off the socket to run the speakers.

Also, you're not going to find one with microUSB input. They're either desktop units with USB-B and sometimes preamp output to active speakers or power amps driving passive speakers, or you have a portable DAC-HPamp that uses microUSB but at best has only fixed voltage line output from its DAC with no preamp control. Other desktop units that don't use USB-B use USB-A to hook up iOS (and sometimes also Android) devices.

At that price point your choices are:
Schiit Modi2 + Magni3 or Vali2
AudioGD NFB-11 (no EU dealer with EU taxes applied to advertised price so no idea how much the total will be when it gets there)

Yeah, I'm interested in the Schiit Stack even before creating this thread, but if I were to buy it from my region, it would most likely have to be a used pair from someone who's ordered or brought it from abroad. And since the Schiit brand in general is pretty unpopular in Finland, as basically no retailers have them in stock here, it would be tough to find them used. Also searching some EU Amazon sites I struggle to find Schiit products, only on the UK site and not even sure if it would ship to Finland.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

You're most probably right, I should pipe it down on just comparing what chip is in which dac. I'm still in a learning and understanding process of this industry, so I may sometime focus on the irrelevant parts, haha.

Well, technically the DAC chip choice would be the somewhat irrelevant part

Yeah, I'm interested in the Schiit Stack even before creating this thread, but if I were to buy it from my region, it would most likely have to be a used pair from someone who's ordered or brought it from abroad. And since the Schiit brand in general is pretty unpopular in Finland, as basically no retailers have them in stock here, it would be tough to find them used. Also searching some EU Amazon sites I struggle to find Schiit products, only on the UK site and not even sure if it would ship to Finland.

I think they have a dealer in the Netherlands. You just pay a little extra for shipping due to the distance, but practically it's kind of like ordering a Schiit in California that would be sent to the US East Coast.