Amp or different headphones? What do u think?

Nov 7, 2016 at 9:05 PM Thread Starter Post #1 of 19

Bazza Hallward

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Hi I'm new here but have followed head-fi.org for a while. I've always been a fan of personal audio... have owned lots of Sennhesiers and have owned Stax,Grado,Koss,and NAD headphones.

But I'm still a noob :laughing:

In fact I am stuck!

I own a pair of Grado PS500s at the moment. But I'm using them directly from my source Oppo. I've tried then with a Quad PA-One and with my NAD C165bee preamp. Volume is not a problem and that is why I bought a pair of 32 ohm headphones in the first place. But there is a problem. And I think it is a lack of control. I know the grado's can sound better.

So a low impendance amp is one option (the Quad PA-One has a 32 ohm output impedance and the NAD has a 10 ohm output impedance which possibly rules them out).

The other option is a pair of high impedance headphone such as HD650s. The NAD pumps 5V into 600 ohms so volume shouldn’t be an issue... but I won't know until I buy them.

I do like the sennheiser sound (except the HD600s which I found a little bland). I like the Grado's too but I wish they were smoother and had more bass especially with rock.

So what are your thoughts? Keep the grados and get an amp or get the sennheisers and run them out of the NAD?

Cheers!
 
Nov 7, 2016 at 10:03 PM Post #2 of 19
Hi I'm new here but have followed head-fi.org for a while. I've always been a fan of personal audio... have owned lots of Sennhesiers and have owned Stax,Grado,Koss,and NAD headphones.

But I'm still a noob :laughing:

In fact I am stuck!

I own a pair of Grado PS500s at the moment. But I'm using them directly from my source Oppo. I've tried then with a Quad PA-One and with my NAD C165bee preamp. Volume is not a problem and that is why I bought a pair of 32 ohm headphones in the first place. But there is a problem. And I think it is a lack of control. I know the grado's can sound better.

So a low impendance amp is one option (the Quad PA-One has a 32 ohm output impedance and the NAD has a 10 ohm output impedance which possibly rules them out).

The other option is a pair of high impedance headphone such as HD650s. The NAD pumps 5V into 600 ohms so volume shouldn’t be an issue... but I won't know until I buy them.

I do like the sennheiser sound (except the HD600s which I found a little bland). I like the Grado's too but I wish they were smoother and had more bass especially with rock.

So what are your thoughts? Keep the grados and get an amp or get the sennheisers and run them out of the NAD?

Cheers!


My Alessandros sound not good thru my Sansui,too much juice.....too much bloat,mud.

If you like the Grado aggressiveness and already have a powerful amp I might suggest trying to dig up a pair of AKG K240 sextetts.

I can write several paragraphs on them but I will spare you.If youre interested lemme know and I will go into more detail.

My Alessandros sound much better thru my Schiit Magni Uber
 
Nov 8, 2016 at 12:46 AM Post #3 of 19
Hi I'm new here but have followed head-fi.org for a while. I've always been a fan of personal audio... have owned lots of Sennhesiers and have owned Stax,Grado,Koss,and NAD headphones.

But I'm still a noob :laughing:
In fact I am stuck!
I own a pair of Grado PS500s at the moment. But I'm using them directly from my source Oppo. I've tried then with a Quad PA-One and with my NAD C165bee preamp. Volume is not a problem and that is why I bought a pair of 32 ohm headphones in the first place. But there is a problem. And I think it is a lack of control. I know the Grado's can sound better.
So a low impedance amp is one option (the Quad PA-One has a 32 ohm output impedance and the NAD has a 10 ohm output impedance which possibly rules them out).
The other option is a pair of high impedance headphone such as HD650s. The NAD pumps 5V into 600 ohms so volume shouldn’t be an issue... but I won't know until I buy them.
I do like the sennheiser sound (except the HD600s which I found a little bland). I like the Grado's too but I wish they were smoother and had more bass especially with rock.
So what are your thoughts? Keep the grados and get an amp or get the sennheisers and run them out of the NAD?

 
Plugging 32-Ohm (GradoPS500) headphones, into a headphone amplifier with a 10-Ohm output impedance (NAD C165bee) is not really a big issue, when it comes to impedance.
You can spend $60 for a FiiO A3 headphone amplifier , which has a less then 1-Ohm output impedance and plug it into the NAD's line-output.
 
Check out the Massdrop (Senn) HD6XX headphones (basically a relabeled HD650), for $200.
https://www.massdrop.com/buy/massdrop-sennheiser-hd6xx
That is something you can plug into the NAD.
I think the HD6XX would offer you a very different sound, from your current Grados.
 
 
Nov 8, 2016 at 10:30 AM Post #4 of 19
In my experience (and I've owned and demo'd a few Grados), Grados are pretty invariant when it comes to changing them from amplifier to amplifier. This should not be read as "he's saying theres 0.0% differences lets make a huge fight!" but as "they pretty much are what they are." If you feel they need more bass, less edge, and more inner detail/refinement/smoothness/whatever-word-fits then you, my friend, should consider looking for new headphones, not a new amplifier. The HD 600 series from Sennheiser are a very popular contrast to the Grado sound, and something that I agree bears serious consideration. If you want "more smooth and more bass" that's very much towards the Sennheiser sound. Audio-Technica (like W1000X or A2000X) and/or Ultrasone (HFI-2400, PRO2900, etc) may also bear consideration, as well as the Koss ESP/950 system.

As far as the amp discussion itself: go ahead and tar and feather me, but having tried it, the RA-1 is honestly my pick for Grados. It's small, its simple, and it just works. That said, if I had to somehow try and quantify "how much better is it" vs something like my integrated amp or another headphone amp, it probably doesn't represent a great value (but then again, IMO/IME, no headphone amp really does). While I think the RA-1 will improve synergy with Grados, it isn't going to change their sound signature dramatically (nor will any other amp) - hence why I'm saying I'd probably look at new cans, were it me (of course, I'd still keep the Grados too).
 
Nov 8, 2016 at 11:37 AM Post #5 of 19
 If you want "more smooth and more bass" that's very much towards the Sennheiser sound. Audio-Technica (like W1000X or A2000X) and/or Ultrasone (HFI-2400, PRO2900, etc) may also bear consideration, as well as the Koss ESP/950 system.

 

I will agree the ATH AD2000s are a good alternative,but try to find the non X version,pretty much a superior version to the X.

We are all making all these suggestions without knowing what style of music you like.Since you have Grados im guessing rock must be part off the mix,but who knows.

I listen to rock/metal/folk 90-95% of the time and for rock I grab my HE-500s,for metal with an aggressive sound I grab my Sextetts(MPs) or AD2000s,theyre essentially a toss up when it comes to metal though the 2000s are a bit smoother,but the Sextetts bring out guitar like no other headphone Ive heard,at the cost of slight grain in upper mids/lower highs.

I used o own the HD600s and while theyre nice headphones I found them rather soulless and bland for my musical tastes.
 
Nov 8, 2016 at 5:59 PM Post #6 of 19
Hey thanks everyone,
This feedback is great.
 
Yea, I listen to a lot of rock and some of it is metal. I tend to listen to rock more on headphones simply because it's not as palatable to the rest of the household through the stereo. Otherwise I actually enjoy a wide range of music.
And I've done a bit of research on all your suggestions of amp and headphones. The Schiit is a very good price too - not crazy money.
 
I have to say that my thoughts about the Grados with the NAD came from something I read about a 1:8 rule of output impedance to headphone impedance. But I've also read that isn't a big issue with many headphones, including Grados... one of the reasons why I bought them. So maybe they don't need a low impedance output  - especailly if I am looking for a warmer and smoother sound. I'm actually starting to think that the 10 ohm output of the NAD (which has 2V into 32 ohms) may actually be pretty good for the Grado's.
 
 
I'm leaning towards the idea of having two pairs of headphones with different sound signatures and just using the NAD C165BEE headphone out. I know I'd regret selling the PS500! Why didn't I think about that before? Two pairs of headphones... depending on my mood ;-)
 
So I'll do some more reseach on your headphone suggestions. Thanks!
 
Nov 8, 2016 at 7:53 PM Post #8 of 19
I will agree the ATH AD2000s are a good alternative,but try to find the non X version,pretty much a superior version to the X.


We are all making all these suggestions without knowing what style of music you like.Since you have Grados im guessing rock must be part off the mix,but who knows.


I listen to rock/metal/folk 90-95% of the time and for rock I grab my HE-500s,for metal with an aggressive sound I grab my Sextetts(MPs) or AD2000s,theyre essentially a toss up when it comes to metal though the 2000s are a bit smoother,but the Sextetts bring out guitar like no other headphone Ive heard,at the cost of slight grain in upper mids/lower highs.


I used o own the HD600s and while theyre nice headphones I found them rather soulless and bland for my musical tastes.


Note: I said A2000X, not AD2000 or AD2000X. Very different headphones. I have not heard either of the ADs, but I do remember the original AD2000 being FOTM some years ago, so there's probably quite a bit written about them, for better or for worse. I have no idea how the new "Z" (there's an A2000Z, I don't know if there's an AD-Z yet) compares sonically, but from what I've read, they dropped the all-magnesium build in lieu of a mostly plastic frame, which is an aesthetic turn off imho. But maybe they sound better, who knows. :o

For rock and metal I'd agree on the Sennheisers being a bit bland - they just aren't an incredibly fast headphone. Ultrasone and ESP/950 are where I'd be looking then, based on what I've heard, owned, etc. Honestly the ESP/950 were what made me sell the Sennheisers - they do everything the Senns can do, better, and they're *fast*, and (and this is really subjective) more comfortable too.

I have to say that my thoughts about the Grados with the NAD came from something I read about a 1:8 rule of output impedance to headphone impedance. But I've also read that isn't a big issue with many headphones, including Grados... one of the reasons why I bought them. So maybe they don't need a low impedance output  - especailly if I am looking for a warmer and smoother sound. I'm actually starting to think that the 10 ohm output of the NAD (which has 2V into 32 ohms) may actually be pretty good for the Grado's.


Short answer is throw that 1:8 thing out with the bathwater. Longer answer is: it's based on some (bad) assumptions about a given transducer or transducer set (this can be a headphone, a speaker, whatever) having some sort of "ideal response" (note how arbitrary that is) wrt its impedance interaction, and that because higher output impedance + more reactive load will result in frequency response variation (from what you ask? the same load with low output impedance source), that "variation" is obviously an error, and therefore higher output impedance is bad. Hopefully this explanation shows exactly how bad the logic here is...

To get deeper:

- The original IEC specification (which is often mocked by people trying to sell something, more on this in a bit) calls for a 120 ohm output impedance, but also for the device to be able to do 5V. A lot of receivers can do this easily, and usually exceed the IEC specified impedance - what they usually are doing is taking a high value resistor (just using equipment I own as a small sample, this can range as high as 560 ohms) and throwing it on the output from the internal amplifier. This is done to bring the level down to something safe for the headphones and the listener.

- This "this is a bad thing" requires the headphones/speaker/object to be a fairly reactive load, that is, the impedance plotted vs frequency has to look like a roller coaster. That + higher output impedance and you get into variations on power transfer and you'll see increases in magnitude at points in the frequency response correlating to the impedance. Not all headphones exhibit this reactivity, for example orthos generally look like a resistor from the amplifier's perspective (e.g. impedance is just flat at whatever its specified at), some dynamic cans are pretty "stable" too (Grado being an example).

- In more recent years, the IEC specification means less and less because a lot of mobile and integrated devices simply can't provide that kind of output, and that's driven a lot of ultra-sensitive, low impedance cans that can get stupid loud with almost no input (e.g. Beats Pro). The point behind those designs is for better compatibility (and battery life) with something like the iPhone.

- Some manufacturers actually have designed, or design, products with the IEC target in mind - AKG, Audio-Technica, and Beyerdynamic are all solid examples of this (there's also similar arguments to be made for speaker design, including by some quite smart folks like Floyd Toole). If I remember correctly, Sennheiser has been ambiguous as to whether or not they care about the IEC target. HOWEVER, this can all boil down to a matter of preference (you aren't risking damage to the headphones) - maybe you don't like to add the flavor packet to your ramen, or you put ketchup in your mac'n'cheese, or you drink your Dr Pepper warm, etc.

So, and here's where a lot of the really hardcore, numbers-driven objectivist guys teeth are going to be grinding, we end up circling back to how we used to talk about amplifiers: try it, listen, hear, and decide if you like how it sounds with the rest of your system.

In the case of Grados, they aren't seeing wild variations in impedance, so you won't get huge variations in frequency response with relative changes in output impedance. This isn't to say with massive changes in output impedance there wouldn't be something happening, but the bigger question is "would you actually hear it?" and "if you could actually hear it, would you consistently notice it?" From experience with various Grados and sources, I will say that for me, the answer is no. Even with Sennheisers and other reactive cans, while I do notice the difference, its pretty easy to forget about if you aren't doing continuous A/B comparisons of gear (and end of the day even with the "big" changes that some Sennheisers can experience, they're still going to sound like they sound, you aren't gonna turn them into something they aren't just by changing the amplifier or source component or whatever).

So, if you want something that's smoother, bassier, etc that's another pair of cans, because you won't turn the Grados into that with another amplifier.

To hopefully prevent a lot of potential screaming: I am not saying all amplifiers sound exactly the same all the time in all usage scenarios. I am not making any absolutist statements. Of the amplifiers I own, and have owned, I would say that to my ears there are slight differences that can, in concert with the rest of the system, either serve to somewhat heighten or diminish enjoyment of the overall setup. Think of it more like adding salt to your food than exchanging your taco for sushi.

Some stuff to read if you really want to get into the whole output impedance discussion:
http://en.goldenears.net/index.php?mid=KB_Columns&document_srl=1389
http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/musings-headphone-amplifier-output-impedance (here, Dr Meier cites Sennheiser as saying the HD 800 is designed with low output impedance in mind, but I vaguely remember reading that the HD 580/600 assumed higher output impedance if for no other reason than they were probably designed before the Cold War officially ended).

I'll also add: anything that goes down the marketing-driven road of "damping factor" or "electrical damping" or whatever else can probably be discarded with prejudice. It's mostly just a rehashing of very old debates.

Some more stuff you might read:
http://roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm#damping
http://sound.whsites.net/impedanc.htm
http://www.butleraudio.com/damping1.php (I've posted this before and it's cased some confusion - Butler Audio did not write or prepare this article, they're merely hosting an article that was originally written in 1967 by a JBL engineer)
http://eaw.com/amplifier-damping-factor-more-is-better-or-is-it/ (awful grey-on-white text but does a good job exploring how wire loss can muddy this discussion)
http://www.audioholics.com/audio-amplifier/damping-factor-effects-on-system-response

Side note for the peanut gallery: I'm not looking for a fight here, and I'm trying to present this information is as non-biased a way as possible. There *can be* an impact here, but for Grados its fairly small (if noticeable), and for headphones that are more impacted by it, it will ultimately come down to personal preference more than anything else. Yes, something *is* happening, but how you as the listener INTERPRET or EXPERIENCE that something is not easily quantified or objectified.
 
Nov 8, 2016 at 9:18 PM Post #9 of 19
Note: I said A2000X, not AD2000 or AD2000X. Very different headphones. I have not heard either of the ADs, but I do remember the original AD2000 being FOTM some years ago, so there's probably quite a bit written about them, for better or for worse. I have no idea how the new "Z" (there's an A2000Z, I don't know if there's an AD-Z yet) compares sonically, but from what I've read, they dropped the all-magnesium build in lieu of a mostly plastic frame, which is an aesthetic turn off imho. But maybe they sound better, who knows.
redface.gif


For rock and metal I'd agree on the Sennheisers being a bit bland - they just aren't an incredibly fast headphone. Ultrasone and ESP/950 are where I'd be looking then, based on what I've heard, owned, etc. Honestly the ESP/950 were what made me sell the Sennheisers - they do everything the Senns can do, better, and they're *fast*, and (and this is really subjective) more comfortable too.

My bad,i misread your original post,BUT....ATH AD2000 (non X) is widely considered to be the fastest dynamic driver headphone ever made.....if its not,then i have yet to hear it.
It is excellent for metal and trance,but as i said earlier for classic rock I like my planars better.
 
Nov 8, 2016 at 9:32 PM Post #10 of 19
My bad,i misread your original post,BUT....ATH AD2000 (non X) is widely considered to be the fastest dynamic driver headphone ever made.....if its not,then i have yet to hear it.

It is excellent for metal and trance,but as i said earlier for classic rock I like my planars better.


Haven't heard the AD2000, but I do remember those claims being made years ago when "headphone speed" was a more common discussion (and based on how fast the closed-back top-tier ATs are, I'd believe it too). IME there gets to be a point of diminishing returns though, relative to whatever you're listening to, so depending on that, the "extra speed" may go unnoticed.
 
Nov 8, 2016 at 9:48 PM Post #11 of 19
Haven't heard the AD2000, but I do remember those claims being made years ago when "headphone speed" was a more common discussion (and based on how fast the closed-back top-tier ATs are, I'd believe it too). IME there gets to be a point of diminishing returns though, relative to whatever you're listening to, so depending on that, the "extra speed" may go unnoticed.


Its quite a unique headphone...warm,but not laid back,midbass monster,but lightning quick....dunno how they did it TBH
 
Nov 9, 2016 at 3:27 PM Post #12 of 19
Short answer is throw that 1:8 thing out with the bathwater. Longer answer is: it's based on some (bad) assumptions about a given transducer or transducer set (this can be a headphone, a speaker, whatever) having some sort of "ideal response" (note how arbitrary that is) wrt its impedance interaction, and that because higher output impedance + more reactive load will result in frequency response variation (from what you ask? the same load with low output impedance source), that "variation" is obviously an error, and therefore higher output impedance is bad. Hopefully this explanation shows exactly how bad the logic here is...


Thanks obobskivich. This is exactly what I needed to hear/read. This impedance matching story has confused me a lot. In fact I started to believe that I wasn't hearing my PS500s the way they were intended, which affected my perception about how they sound with the NAD. NAD's 10 ohm output probably offers a lot of advantage over regular headphone outs without having to go to a full low impedance amp, if the lower impedance is an advantage. In fact the PS500s are slightly warmer and smoother through the NAD than directly out the Oppo as well as a touch more open sounding.

And thanks for all the references, they'll keep me busy!
 
Nov 9, 2016 at 3:51 PM Post #13 of 19
Thanks obobskivich. This is exactly what I needed to hear/read. This impedance matching story has confused me a lot. In fact I started to believe that I wasn't hearing my PS500s the way they were intended, which affected my perception about how they sound with the NAD. NAD's 10 ohm output probably offers a lot of advantage over regular headphone outs without having to go to a full low impedance amp, if the lower impedance is an advantage. In fact the PS500s are slightly warmer and smoother through the NAD than directly out the Oppo as well as a touch more open sounding.

And thanks for all the references, they'll keep me busy!


This whole lexicon of "hearing [...] the way the [...] intended" really needs to go by the wayside too - that one can lay directly at Dr Dre's feet but it has gone so far in recent years its just scary. Honestly if it sounds good to you, and isn't hurting you, your gear, or anyone else (or their gear), then who the heck cares? Sure the musician, the producer, the speaker designer, etc may have their intention or preference or whatever for their object, but the author is dead man...;)

If you like how one configuration of your gear sounds better for you, then just go with it. Someone else may hear things differently, and that's their prerogative, but end of the day you're the one listening to it so you're the one that has to like it. :)
 
Nov 12, 2016 at 2:42 PM Post #14 of 19
I think that's worth reiterating. I was listening to The Cure last night then I switched over to System of a Down! Warmth, smoothness and excitement are already features of the PS500s and the NAD seems to only enhance that.

This must be the intended sound. But you're absolutely right: that doesn't matter because it sounds good!

Thanks for your advice. :wink:
 
Nov 12, 2016 at 6:42 PM Post #15 of 19
Quote:


In my experience (and I've owned and demo'd a few Grados), Grados are pretty invariant when it comes to changing them from amplifier to amplifier. This should not be read as "he's saying theres 0.0% differences lets make a huge fight!" but as "they pretty much are what they are." If you feel they need more bass, less edge, and more inner detail/refinement/smoothness/whatever-word-fits then you, my friend, should consider looking for new headphones, not a new amplifier. The HD 600 series from Sennheiser are a very popular contrast to the Grado sound, and something that I agree bears serious consideration. If you want "more smooth and more bass" that's very much towards the Sennheiser sound. Audio-Technica (like W1000X or A2000X) and/or Ultrasone (HFI-2400, PRO2900, etc) may also bear consideration, as well as the Koss ESP/950 system.

 
That's between decent amplifiers, ie, none that would have any trouble driving them, since they aren't hard to drive. Put output impedance into the equation and they can go one way with one amp and another way with the next amp. My SR225 sounds like a tin can with my NAD304 (and the OP was using speaker amps also) while a touch too thick throughout the bass with my Little Dot MkII (even thicker than the HD600 driven by the same amp), while they sound fine off my 3ch CMOY. In all those cases the source was a 5g diyMod.
 
Going from the CMOY to a 2Move, Toucan, Cantate, Asgard, etc never made much of a difference over the CMOY to me that I can say confidently think isn't attributable to minute differences in output levels.
 
 
Quote:


I own a pair of Grado PS500s at the moment. But I'm using them directly from my source Oppo. I've tried then with a Quad PA-One and with my NAD C165bee preamp. Volume is not a problem and that is why I bought a pair of 32 ohm headphones in the first place. But there is a problem. And I think it is a lack of control. I know the grado's can sound better.

So a low impendance amp is one option (the Quad PA-One has a 32 ohm output impedance and the NAD has a 10 ohm output impedance which possibly rules them out).

 
What is the output impedance of the Oppo? If it has a low enough output impedance, then you're basically hearing the PS500 as close as possible to how it was meant to sound. Blowing more on a dedicated amp isn't going to be a lot of improvement. Grados are so easy to drive that the only way for amplification to really have an issue is if the output impedance is too high, but if the Oppo's is low enough, then that's about it for how that headphone really sounds like.
 
 
 
Quote:


The other option is a pair of high impedance headphone such as HD650s. The NAD pumps 5V into 600 ohms so volume shouldn’t be an issue... but I won't know until I buy them.

I do like the sennheiser sound (except the HD600s which I found a little bland). I like the Grado's too but I wish they were smoother and had more bass especially with rock.

 
When you found the HD600 "bland" what did you hook them up to? Because my HD600 while overall there were no glaring issues weren't having the sudden drum hits popping out against the other instruments for example (not even the vocals clearly in front of the other instruments) when driven by my NAD304, and in fact even my Marantz CD60 did slightly better.
 
If you used speaker gear, obviously the HD600 is closer to what it really sounds like than the same speaker gear with high output impedance driving Grados. The problem basically is that you haven't really heard either properly. That said, you can always invest in a really good but high value headphone amp that isn't necessarily overkill with the Grados for the money while being able to do well enough on the HD650 and HD6XX. If the amp doesn't improve the Grados (assuming the Grados totally sound like a tin can with your speaker amps now that is) and neither do some tweaks (bend the headband to press the drivers harder against your ears without hurting the earlobes - wider set in the middle and bent in at the edge - like current HiFiMan headbands), then sell it and get the HD650 or if you can make it, the HD6XX.
 

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