[Nomyzs]

Hi, 
 
I currently own AKG 712k pro, using it with Styleaudio Carat-Ruby 2.
I was thinking about buying AMP for my new headphones - like Asgard II. Is that the right way to do, to improve my listening experience? 
Or should I buy a new dac/amp combo. I dont want to spent much money, was thinking about 300 dollars (or euro I should say) max. 
I like warmer sound resposne, totally avoding harsh highs. 

 

[NA Blur]

To me the Asgard II is not going to darken the sound much because it is designed to give a neutral response. Perhaps a tube amp will smooth out the sound a bit, but I think your money is better spent either on better music or a different headphone with a different sound signature like the Fidelio X2 or HiFiMAN HE-400s.
 
What type(s) of music do you listen to most often?

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nomyzs /img/forum/go_quote.gif

I currently own AKG 712k pro, using it with Styleaudio Carat-Ruby 2.

I was thinking about buying AMP for my new headphones - like Asgard II. Is that the right way to do, to improve my listening experience? 

Or should I buy a new dac/amp combo. I dont want to spent much money, was thinking about 300 dollars (or euro I should say) max. 

I like warmer sound resposne, totally avoding harsh highs. 

 

An amplifier is called an amplifier because it just amplifies the signal going into it, making it a strong enough signal to drive a headphone. It is not an equalizer, it does not magically transform the sound, thus the reason why it's called an amplifier instead of "harmonically euphonic boombasticator." 

 

That said, if an amplifier changes the sound, it's because of distortion, so getting a better amplifier minimize the amount of distortion you end up dealing with. In some cases, distortion plus some other factors - like high gain that makes setting the volume iffy (like 3mm of movement on the knob gets you 3dB difference in output), impedance-related or impedance+power delivery+distortion issues - can result in a very different sound like getting harsher highs. The problem of course is that while the overall system response won't make the headphone/speaker sound any worse, if you're dealing with a headphone with a certain response that already has some treble emphasis, the amplifier nor the DAC will not magically EQ that response away. Again, all it will do is not make it worse.

 

That spike centered at 6.3khz isn't going to magically melt away with a good amplifier.

 

Basically, manage your expectations. At best, a good amplifier will not make such problems worse, tightening up the splash of the cymbals instead of grating your ear drums, and tightening the kick of the bass drums so they get a bit closer to being a hard "thud" rather than a loose and hollow knock, but the overall balance will be the same. Consider getting different headphones also, like the HD650.

 

[Nomyzs]

Thanks for your great responses, especially your post ProtegeManiac.
You definitely cleared away some problems I had (I am a bit of noob). I don't plan on changing my AKG 712k pro, they are the best cans I had and I would like to listen to them a bit more before I make a decision. I planned to buy something around HD800 in the future when I will be making another step into the audio world, but that's obviously very far away as of right now.
 
I don't know how to write it properly, it's just that, I have a feeling that my AKG don't sound, as full as they could, when compared to my Shure 840 or my friends Denon MM 400, but of course that could just be my thinking. I have noticed also that since I bought them I am adjusting the volume knob more than ever. It's like, I would like to hear some parts of the song more so I turn up the volume ( I also need to turn the knob more to get any sound), but then I hit a wall, because the headphones are too loud and they hurt my ears, that could also be the spike you showed me ProtegeManiac, or just the fact how the headphones are.
 
In the end I was thinking, that logically, because I never owned a dedicated headphone amp, it could solve the issue I have, plus in the future it would allow me build my rig more, like buying mentioned HD 800 or other high impendence cans. 

 

[RojasTKD]

Thanks for your great responses, especially your post ProtegeManiac.
You definitely cleared away some problems I had (I am a bit of noob). I don't plan on changing my AKG 712k pro, they are the best cans I had and I would like to listen to them a bit more before I make a decision. I planned to buy something around HD800 in the future when I will be making another step into the audio world, but that's obviously very far away as of right now.

I don't know how to write it properly, it's just that, I have a feeling that my AKG don't sound, as full as they could, when compared to my Shure 840 or my friends Denon MM 400, but of course that could just be my thinking. I have noticed also that since I bought them I am adjusting the volume knob more than ever. It's like, I would like to hear some parts of the song more so I turn up the volume ( I also need to turn the knob more to get any sound), but then I hit a wall, because the headphones are too loud and they hurt my ears, that could also be the spike you showed me ProtegeManiac, or just the fact how the headphones are.

In the end I was thinking, that logically, because I never owned a dedicated headphone amp, it could solve the issue I have, plus in the future it would allow me build my rig more, like buying mentioned HD 800 or other high impendence cans. 

From what I have read, the HD800 is a very technically capable headphone and is known for Great resolution. It is also said to be somewhat bright. There are puerile modding their HD 800 to tame some of its treble spikes.of course there are others that live the treble. Still, you may have the same (or worse) issue with HD 800 being too bright.

I can second the X2 suggestion, or a HE-400i off the top of my head. I own all three (Fidelio x2, HE-400i and AKG K712 and other).

 

[derbigpr]

You should look into buying a headphone amp / DAC combo, because just getting the Asgard 2 without having a good DAC is pointless. Your best bet is getting something like the JDS Element, Asus Essence STU, Schiit Modi 2 + Magni 2 or Vali 2, or even Modi 2 DAC + Asgard 2 amp if you can stretch to 350 dollars, which would be a great combo for the K712 because the Asgard 2 is a slightly warm sounding amp. Don't let the low impedance of the K712 fool you, they're NOT easy headphones to power properly (they'll get loud enough out of pretty much anything, but won't sound good out of everything) and let me tell you, I've had everything that Sennheiser, Beyerdynamic, AKG, etc. have on the market from low end to flagship, and K7xx series is one of the most difficult headphones out there to make really sound good, they really depend on a good DAC and amp and can go from sounding harsh, bright, boring and lifeless to amazingly fluid, natural and dynamic, in fact, they have the potential to be far more dynamic, and are more technically capable than stuff like HD600/650, DT880, etc. I'd put my K701's close to T1's in terms of technical ability. 
They can sound very bright and harsh out of an inferior amp that doesn't have the authority to drive them properly and control the highs like it's supposed to, or make the low end of the headphones come out properly. This AKG, especially the old K701 and K702 probably have the most deceiving reputation of all cans, most people think they're bass light and bright, they're not once you power them properly.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

  I don't plan on changing my AKG 712k pro, they are the best cans I had and I would like to listen to them a bit more before I make a decision. I planned to buy something around HD800 in the future when I will be making another step into the audio world, but that's obviously very far away as of right now.

 
Have you listened to the HD800, and preferably with a proper amp (ie, one that wasn't struggling with it at all, with high enough output at very low distortion)? If you have and you liked it then at least I'm confident you like this kind of sound as the K712 is similar. That said however overall I still prefer the K701, which has a smoother response curve than the K712's more jagged response (which includes a narrower and taller treble peak) or the HD800's relatively hollow upper midrange, but as pretty as the white finish is I can imagine it won't be long before I have some annoying smudges on it.
 

 
I don't know how to write it properly, it's just that, I have a feeling that my AKG don't sound, as full as they could, when compared to my Shure 840 or my friends Denon MM 400, but of course that could just be my thinking.

 

Well, on first note, there are systems where the headphone or speaker don't sound as full as they can get, half the time due to a struggling amplifier and the kind of distortion it produces. That said, if you're comparing it to your Shure and Denon, part of it can be due to the response curve of those headphones as much as (or more than) it could be amplifier distortion or even DAC (or phono pre/cartridge) response.

 

Based on this graph, the Shure could be "fuller" due to how the K712's response dives at 1.5khz and 3khz (even though they're comparable at 2khz), and then the K712 is stronger at 6khz to 8khz, which together if not also due to that huge plateau of bass, de-emphasizes the midrange. To be fair, that plateau is comparatively flatter all the way down to 20hz, unlike how the Shure has a peak at 100hz and then really starts to taper off, or how the  the K701 tapers off below 50hz.

 
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nomyzs /img/forum/go_quote.gif

I have noticed also that since I bought them I am adjusting the volume knob more than ever. It's like, I would like to hear some parts of the song more so I turn up the volume ( I also need to turn the knob more to get any sound), but then I hit a wall, because the headphones are too loud and they hurt my ears, that could also be the spike you showed me ProtegeManiac, or just the fact how the headphones are.

 

In the end I was thinking, that logically, because I never owned a dedicated headphone amp, it could solve the issue I have, plus in the future it would allow me build my rig more, like buying mentioned HD 800 or other high impendence cans. 

 

If that's the case then the amplifier or whatever you're using now very likely also has some distortion at play that makes them sound worse, but keep in mind there's no guarantee how much better they can get. You just need to choose one that works great with the K712, and that's where it gets tricky - the AKGs are known to need a fair bit of current, while you have the HD800 in mind later on. Personally, what you should do at this point really is focus on an amplifier that will drive the AKGs very well, which isn't likely to have issues driving the HD800. 

 

This is because the two headphones have very different parameters that can make choosing an amplifier tricky if you did it in reverse. The HD800 has high nominal impedance that is less consistent (it spikes up somewhere in the bass) but has high efficiency, while the AKGs have low but more consistent impedance throughout the range but has low sensitivity. If you asked what would be great for the 300ohm Sennheiser, chances are you'll get output-transformerless tube amplifiers, which can be affordable but the lack of a transformer can cause issues on lower impedance loads with higher current demand. One the other hand, an amp that can drive the K712 at 52ohms without breaking a sweat isn't likely to struggle at 300ohms given a more sensitive headphone.

 

With that in mind, if you're going to upgrade your amp with your eyes on the HD800 down the line, the Asgard isn't bad, however it was fantastic at the time when the Gilmore Lite was on its way out and the Valhalla (note that this is OTL tube design) and Lyr weren't around for those who can spend a bit more and there's the Magni and Vali for those who want to spend less. If you really don't want to spend more, by all means get the Asgard; however, consider saving up for the Lyr also as you'll have much more flexibility in what you can hook up to it. Personally though what I'd do is just use the HD800 with the Valhalla2, and then just get some other headphone for more casual listening, given how similar the HD800 and the K712 are.

 

[Nomyzs]

  You should look into buying a headphone amp / DAC combo, because just getting the Asgard 2 without having a good DAC is pointless. Your best bet is getting something like the JDS Element, Asus Essence STU, Schiit Modi 2 + Magni 2 or Vali 2, or even Modi 2 DAC + Asgard 2 amp if you can stretch to 350 dollars, which would be a great combo for the K712 because the Asgard 2 is a slightly warm sounding amp. Don't let the low impedance of the K712 fool you, they're NOT easy headphones to power properly (they'll get loud enough out of pretty much anything, but won't sound good out of everything) and let me tell you, I've had everything that Sennheiser, Beyerdynamic, AKG, etc. have on the market from low end to flagship, and K7xx series is one of the most difficult headphones out there to make really sound good, they really depend on a good DAC and amp and can go from sounding harsh, bright, boring and lifeless to amazingly fluid, natural and dynamic, in fact, they have the potential to be far more dynamic, and are more technically capable than stuff like HD600/650, DT880, etc. I'd put my K701's close to T1's in terms of technical ability. 
They can sound very bright and harsh out of an inferior amp that doesn't have the authority to drive them properly and control the highs like it's supposed to, or make the low end of the headphones come out properly. This AKG, especially the old K701 and K702 probably have the most deceiving reputation of all cans, most people think they're bass light and bright, they're not once you power them properly.

 
That's the reason I started looking for an AMP, because a lot of people mentioned that you need a hefty amount of power to really appreciate AKG 7xx and I just feel I am not receiving it right now.  
 
I must say from all the stuff you mentioned Xonar sounds most interesting. My budget is already stretched, and the reason for that is: I moved last year, and I am planning to move this year once more, so till summer I am running on low funds. But more importantly: Xonar fits my needs best. I also own Wharfedale Diamond 10.2 speakers and Denon 520 AMP ( that are 800 kms away ). One device to rule them all, plus dedicated knob for headphones and line out.
Oh well, I need to digest all the information right now. 

 

[ProtegeManiac]

   
That's the reason I started looking for an AMP, because a lot of people mentioned that you need a hefty amount of power to really appreciate AKG 7xx and I just feel I am not receiving it right now.  
 
I must say from all the stuff you mentioned Xonar sounds most interesting. My budget is already stretched, and the reason for that is: I moved last year, and I am planning to move this year once more, so till summer I am running on low funds. But more importantly: Xonar fits my needs best. I also own Wharfedale Diamond 10.2 speakers and Denon 520 AMP ( that are 800 kms away ). One device to rule them all, plus dedicated knob for headphones and line out.
Oh well, I need to digest all the information right now. 

 
I'd much rather wait and spend later rather than go cheap now if it's anything for your main system.

 

[Nomyzs]

   
I'd much rather wait and spend later rather than go cheap now if it's anything for your main system.

Believe me, I have the same type of thinking, but the current AKG sound "status" is bothering me a bit.
That's why I am considering buying Xonar right now, and use it as DAC/AMP right now for AKG 712, and as a DAC + my Denon 520 AMP and Diamond speakers. And next year or at the end of this year, buy Lyr/Valhalla that you suggested and use Xonar only as a DAC. And then... yeah we will see, maybe in two, three years buy HD 800 or some other headphones.
 
Or... as you suggested focus totally on AMP right now. I would probably buy Valhalla 2 per your suggestion. But yeah my head is spinning a bit, need to take some rest and not make a rushed decision