[zachary80]

Headphones used will be HD650, El-8, and Sr60e, so I would like adjustable gain and a neutral sound signature. I am expecting most of my use to be via USB input, but optical would be a nice option. Additionally, having a line out that I can send to my speaker amplifier would be nice as well. I believe my X-Dac recently died, and my E17/E09k is a convenient combo, but I would like something that sounds better. I am also considering how to work my M3 amp into a setup, so I might go DAC only.
 
Contenders:
JDS OBJECTIVE2 and OL DAC. $268. Meets input/power requirements. +$40 for OL Switcher would add the extra line out, with some extra space and inconvenience.
JDS OBJECTIVE2+ODAC REV B. $299 custom. Price includes line out, but only offers USB input.
JDS EL Amp and EL DAC. $558. Fully meets input/output/power requirements, unsure of SQ.
Schiit Fulla 2. $100. Only USB input, pre-amped out. Unsure of amp quality.
Schiit Magni 2 Uber and Modi 2 Uber. $300. Pre-amped out, meets everything else.
Schiit Jotunheim w/ DAC. $499. Only USB input, pre-amped out. Would not used the balanced output.
Audio-gd NFB-11. $400-500?. Fully meets input/output/power requirements, unsure about price/support.

 

[saxophone]

I have not tried the majority of the choices you provided.
 
These are the amps that I have tried:
 
Burson Soloist 
Schiit Magni 1.0 
Schiit Magni 2.0
 
These are the dacs that I have tried:
 
Schiit Modi
Schiit Modi 2U
Schiit Bifrost
 
These are the amp/dacs that I have tried:
 
FiiO E17
 
With all of the above in mind, I will tell you that the Magni/Modi is not quite up to the par for the HD 650. The volume is certainly there, but the mid range doesn't glow like it does with something with more power like the Burson Soloist. For this reason, I would advise against the O2 combo and the Schiit-M combo. 
 
I have heard that the JDS Element is pretty good. I have also heard that Schiit Joutenheim is excellent, but I have not tried this either.
 
Sorry for not being able to help too much more than that.
 
EDIT: I forgot to mention - have you looked into the Chord Mojo? It's on my list of DAC/Amps that I want to try out. It might suffice for what you are looking for.

 

[Music Alchemist]

Lemme tell ya somethin'. I had the Schiit Magni 2 Uber and Modi 2 at one point. Compared it to the headphone outputs of my laptop...and did not hear a difference with easier-to-drive headphones. The Chord Mojo, on the other hand, sounds a lot better to me. It's within your budget, can drive nearly any headphone, and can be used as a DAC in any system too.

 

[zachary80]

Thanks everyone for the input so far.

 

[obobskivich]

Honestly I'll have to echo the "differences between DACs themselves are fairly small" point - if you need a suitable amplifier there's tons of options out there. What are you actually coming from as a source? A computer? If so, what kind of computer? (Okay all I really care about in asking: is it a desktop and is it not a Mac) A quality soundcard (can be internal or external) can easily fulfill the "source" equation here, and then you just provide whatever amplifier suits your fancy (I've had good experiences with CI Audio and Musical Fidelity, to give you somewhere to look). Depending on what (I'm assuming to be) your computer can connect with, this may be possible for downright silly cheap.

I'd also throw out the TEAC UD-H01, but I think it's A) discontinued and B) maybe not suitable for orthos as an amplifier. It fulfills everything else you wanted though, and fits in your budget (or at least, did). I think there is a replacement model (UD-301?) but I haven't heard that one - all of the TEAC DACs have very similar specs on paper, and it looks like the bigger differences are in their drivers/software/format compatibility (e.g. later ones have added DXD, which the H01 lacks).

 

[thompsontechs]

  Lemme tell ya somethin'. I had the Schiit Magni 2 Uber and Modi 2 at one point. Compared it to the headphone outputs of my laptop...and did not hear a difference with easier-to-drive headphones. The Chord Mojo, on the other hand, sounds a lot better to me. It's within your budget, can drive nearly any headphone, and can be used as a DAC in any system too.

I am onboard with this... a friend has the Chord and I was pleasantly surprised just how good it sounded. 

 

[zachary80]

Honestly I'll have to echo the "differences between DACs themselves are fairly small" point - if you need a suitable amplifier there's tons of options out there. What are you actually coming from as a source? A computer? If so, what kind of computer? (Okay all I really care about in asking: is it a desktop and is it not a Mac) A quality soundcard (can be internal or external) can easily fulfill the "source" equation here, and then you just provide whatever amplifier suits your fancy (I've had good experiences with CI Audio and Musical Fidelity, to give you somewhere to look). Depending on what (I'm assuming to be) your computer can connect with, this may be possible for downright silly cheap.

I'd also throw out the TEAC UD-H01, but I think it's A) discontinued and B) maybe not suitable for orthos as an amplifier. It fulfills everything else you wanted though, and fits in your budget (or at least, did). I think there is a replacement model (UD-301?) but I haven't heard that one - all of the TEAC DACs have very similar specs on paper, and it looks like the bigger differences are in their drivers/software/format compatibility (e.g. later ones have added DXD, which the H01 lacks).

I use a Windows PC I built, oldest part is a few years old, solid psu with a UPS (pure sinewave), motherboard outputs optical and analog. (Mobo Asrock z97 killer with Realtek ALC1150
 
I can also use an old turtle beach audio advantage micro for optical, or my ps3/xbox one. May also use with my asus zenbook laptop. The reason I would like multiple inputs/outputs is because I could use it in multiple office settings, or with multiple sources across my home (like the analog of my modded SACD player, or the optical of PS3)

 

[zachary80]

  I am onboard with this... a friend has the Chord and I was pleasantly surprised just how good it sounded. 

I have never heard a Chord Mojo, but if a small form factor can apply equal sound as a larger, what compromises are being made? Are full-sized components purposely using large enclosures and charging extra mark-up?
 
My other issue with the Chord is I do not like its design. I think it looks terrible, and the color implementations are unintuitive to me.

 

[Music Alchemist]

  I have never heard a Chord Mojo, but if a small form factor can apply equal sound as a larger, what compromises are being made? Are full-sized components purposely using large enclosures and charging extra mark-up?
 
My other issue with the Chord is I do not like its design. I think it looks terrible, and the color implementations are unintuitive to me.

 
The main reason it can be so small is that it relies on digital processing that is five hundred times more advanced than conventional DACs. There's a lot of info out there about it if you care to look.
 
Aesthetics are pretty subjective. Personally, I love the way my Mojo looks and how the balls change color. Once you get used to it, it's pretty intuitive.

 

[obobskivich]

I use a Windows PC I built, oldest part is a few years old, solid psu with a UPS (pure sinewave), motherboard outputs optical and analog. (Mobo Asrock z97 killer with Realtek ALC1150

I can also use an old turtle beach audio advantage micro for optical, or my ps3/xbox one. May also use with my asus zenbook laptop. The reason I would like multiple inputs/outputs is because I could use it in multiple office settings, or with multiple sources across my home (like the analog of my modded SACD player, or the optical of PS3)

Coincidentally, I have the slightly fancier "X" version of that motherboard. Folks can go ahead and say nasty things about me if they want, but frankly the onboard audio there is transparent, just like the outputs from my external decoders, or other sources. The differences between DACs are nothing to get into a froth over, especially with modern components. That said, it also has digital out, if you want that. Either way, its certainly into the realm of "good enough." It does not, however, have a headphone amplifier built-in.

Finding a product actually sold as a "headphone amplifier" with multiple switchable inputs will end up costing you a small fortune, and limit your options significantly. I'd say just get a switch, stick it between the amplifier's input and whatever you want to plug into the amplifier, and away you go. Price of said switch will probably be around $30 at most. If you need digital to accommodate digital-only sources (like Xbox One) then you'll need a DAC there.

If you absolutely cannot live with a switch (for whatever reason - I'm not here to judge), your next stop is a legitimate integrated amplifier or receiver, like the Onkyo A-9050, which will have numerous inputs, input selection, built-in DAC, etc. Yes its a big box. Yes you're paying for a big speaker amplifier you may not be using. But it will take all of your various sources in, switch between them, hook up to various headphones, etc. Unfortunately there's not really an equivalent device in the realm of "headphone amplifiers" - some 2ch preamplifiers offer similar features as the IA, but the price usually goes up even further (example: Onkyo P3000R). Some DACs (like the TEACs I mentioned) have multiple digital inputs, but no analog input, which may still be serviceable with your current equipment (barring the SACD player), but you may end up needing a digital switch (they exist for TOSlink (get an active one)) depending on exactly how many sources you want.

[quote="Music]  The main reason it can be so small is that it relies on digital processing that is five hundred times more advanced than conventional DACs [/quote]


Relative to what? According to whom? Based on what metrics? etc.

In other words: [citation needed]


That said:
DACs in general are very small IC components, and don't need massive 19" sized cases to work. Most "full size" DACs are empty space unless they're integrating some other functionality. None of this requires a big 50 lb box stacked to the brim with components. But there's a lot of mythology out there in the world of "audiophilia" and "full size components" are certainly part of that. I "get" the appeal for aesthetic reasons, but in terms of functional performance, there's no reason you need a rack of 19" components whatsoever, and most "personal audio" products (and more broadly than that, most newer hi-fi stuff in general) is largely getting away from that 1970s-esque "you need a boat anchor in a k-mart rack" look.

 

[Music Alchemist]

But to get back to my original point...forget about the five hundred times thing. The basic concept is that it does extreme digital oversampling with the goal of attaining higher timing accuracy and more faithfully reconstructing the original analog waveform. It's complex and not something I can explain by posting about it. You'll have to do hours of research to really understand it.

 

[obobskivich]

But to get back to my original point...forget about the five hundred times thing. The basic concept is that it does extreme digital oversampling with the goal of attaining higher timing accuracy and more faithfully reconstructing the original analog waveform. It's complex and not something I can explain by posting about it. You'll have to do hours of research to really understand it.

That "500x" phrase actually ended up on Chord's website - its the only place the search engine could find it in conjunction with the word "Chord." And their specific claim is "500 times the processing capacity" not "500 times more advanced" which seems like kind of a nonsense value (if I'm understanding their marketing right, they're trying to compare the FPGA doing the filtering (a Xilinx ARTIX 7, for those curious) to the "processing capacity" of either a fixed-function DAC, or (and this is maybe generous) the filtering capacity of a fixed-function filter (and we could go into "so whats "typical" in their universe?" bit - are they talking about something old like SAA7220p, something less old like SM5842, or something modern like Schiit or Cambridge's SHARC-based solutions? (**disclaimer: this is not implying Schiit and Cambridge are doing identical things, they just both use DSPs from the same family**), personally at their asking price I'd say throw it in with the SHARCs and let it fight its way out, but that's maybe too harsh, flipside is "well duh its 500x - its a big FPGA"). So we can boil that down to basically what you've said - more "extreme oversampling" and then its a philosophical debate (ultimately) as to whether or not oversampling is a "good" thing to a particular user (I think ultimately this is the fairest way to frame that, but if someone else has another idea I'm all ears - my point is basically that we're dealing with subtle but potentially (arguably?) perceptible differences and different people will interpret what they're hearing differently, there's not a universal truth to be found). Anyways, while that's all certainly interesting in an academic light, I'm more apt to just blackbox the whole mess (and this goes for Schiit or Cambridge or Philips/NXP too) and say "okay so how does it measure in an audible sense" or "does it actually sound any better?" - its like, so what if your car has a dozen V10 engines, how does it actually drive? Is it comfortable?

Anyways, Stereophile measured it:
http://www.stereophile.com/content/chord-electronics-mojo-da-headphone-amplifier-measurements

And it ends up being an FIR-type filter. Some folks will swear by minimum-phase (modern Meridian), and others by "filterless" (like Kusonoki-style, the absolute polar opposite of what Chord is doing) or other designs (e.g. bridged-T). Personally I've never been able to reliably pick apart FIR from min-phase or Kusonoki-style implementations, especially in typical listening, but like I said some folks swear by one or the other, and there is a measurable/observable difference between them. It's also not the only piece of the puzzle (the analog output side is, IME, a lot more significant to the overall sound because thats usually where the biggest screw-ups wrt noise floor happen). It measures clean enough though, so its probably transparent as need be. No bashing intended at all.

 

[AxelCloris]

Cleaned up the thread. Keep it friendly, please.

 

[zachary80]

The main reason it can be so small is that it relies on digital processing that is five hundred times more advanced than conventional DACs. There's a lot of info out there about it if you care to look.

Aesthetics are pretty subjective. Personally, I love the way my Mojo looks and how the balls change color. Once you get used to it, it's pretty intuitive.

That's good to hear about it becoming intuitive with use. I'd really like to demo one in person because something about it just isn't "clicking" with me.

With respect to the size, I was thinking more about amplifiers and their power supplies, having seen the internals of some of the other candidates (like the nfb11).

Coincidentally, I have the slightly fancier "X" version of that motherboard. Folks can go ahead and say nasty things about me if they want, but frankly the onboard audio there is transparent, just like the outputs from my external decoders, or other sources. The differences between DACs are nothing to get into a froth over, especially with modern components. That said, it also has digital out, if you want that. Either way, its certainly into the realm of "good enough." It does not, however, have a headphone amplifier built-in.

Finding a product actually sold as a "headphone amplifier" with multiple switchable inputs will end up costing you a small fortune, and limit your options significantly. I'd say just get a switch, stick it between the amplifier's input and whatever you want to plug into the amplifier, and away you go. Price of said switch will probably be around $30 at most. If you need digital to accommodate digital-only sources (like Xbox One) then you'll need a DAC there.

If you absolutely cannot live with a switch (for whatever reason - I'm not here to judge), your next stop is a legitimate integrated amplifier or receiver, like the Onkyo A-9050, which will have numerous inputs, input selection, built-in DAC, etc. Yes its a big box. Yes you're paying for a big speaker amplifier you may not be using. But it will take all of your various sources in, switch between them, hook up to various headphones, etc. Unfortunately there's not really an equivalent device in the realm of "headphone amplifiers" - some 2ch preamplifiers offer similar features as the IA, but the price usually goes up even further (example: Onkyo P3000R). Some DACs (like the TEACs I mentioned) have multiple digital inputs, but no analog input, which may still be serviceable with your current equipment (barring the SACD player), but you may end up needing a digital switch (they exist for TOSlink (get an active one)) depending on exactly how many sources you want.

Good point about the motherboard. I believe they actually took steps to isolate the audio section and paid attention to details like the caps. I was using its optical out to my xdac before it died. I can certainly try the analog/line out with headphones (right now it runs to my speakers).

Do you have any suggestions for preamp or switches? I have some cheap solutions from radio shack but they are ugly and take a lot more space then necessary (a/v switches).

I don't think I want to expand to the heat and footprint of a full receiver, especially since I would need to add a amp for headphones at a minimum.

That "500x" phrase actually ended up on Chord's website....And it ends up being an FIR-type filter. Some folks will swear by minimum-phase (modern Meridian), and others by "filterless" (like Kusonoki-style, the absolute polar opposite of what Chord is doing) or other designs (e.g. bridged-T). Personally I've never been able to reliably pick apart FIR from min-phase or Kusonoki-style implementations, especially in typical listening, but like I said some folks swear by one or the other, and there is a measurable/observable difference between them. It's also not the only piece of the puzzle (the analog output side is, IME, a lot more significant to the overall sound because thats usually where the biggest screw-ups wrt noise floor happen). It measures clean enough though, so its probably transparent as need be. No bashing intended at all.

Interesting take on the dac, and something I can look into more later.

 

[Music Alchemist]

With respect to the size, I was thinking more about amplifiers and their power supplies, having seen the internals of some of the other candidates (like the nfb11).

 
FYI, the Mojo has the same maximum output power specs as the larger and much more expensive Hugo TT:
 
600 ohms: 35 mW
300 ohms: 70 mW
56 ohms: 320 mW
32 ohms: 600 mW
8 ohms: 720 mW
 
Even with higher impedance and/or lower sensitivity headphones like the HE500, HD 600, HD 800, etc., I don't come anywhere close to pushing its limits.
 
Another unique thing about it is that it does not have a separate amp section; headphones are driven from the DAC's analog output stage via transistors.