[Cianyx]

I was asking the teacher why an increase in intelligence would result in a detriment to democracy. I'm pretty sure the old layout had a 'delete' button

 

[Anaxilus]

Quote:

I was asking the teacher why an increase in intelligence would result in a detriment to democracy. I'm pretty sure the old layout had a 'delete' button

I believe he was referring to the rise of an elite oligarchy.  Even Leninism had a Vanguard.  I really can't comment further on that point w/ respect to current trends w/o getting into political views and ideology.  Obviously a ruling class is contrary to a Democratic system.  Many feel the current trend is headed in such a a direction.  A Legislative review in concert w/ polling data can help illustrate the point.  

 

[yooss]

Quote:

 
 
 
 
 

Student Performance on the Reading, Scientific and Mathematical Literacy Scales, mean score, 2006 Countries are ranked highest to lowest score   Countries ranked by reading scores. In the other tables below, countries are ranked by mathematics and science scores See also notes below the tables. Rank Country Reading Maths Science 1 Korea 556 547 522 2 Finland 547 548 563 3 Canada 527 527 534 4 New Zealand 521 522 530 5 Ireland 517 501 508 6 Australia 513 520 527 7 Poland1 508 495 498 8 Sweden 507 502 503 9 Netherlands 507 531 525 10 Belgium 501 520 510 11 Switzerland 499 530 512 12 Japan 498 523 531 13 United Kingdom 495 495 515 14 Germany 495 504 516 15 Denmark 494 513 496 16 OECD average 492 498 500 17 Austria 490 505 511 18 France 488 496 495 19 Iceland 484 506 491 20 Norway 484 490 487 21 Czech Republic1 483 510 513 22 Hungary 482 491 504 23 Luxembourg 479 490 486 24 Portugal1 472 466 474 25 Italy 469 462 475 26 Slovak Republic 466 492 488 27 Spain 461 480 488 28 Greece 460 459 473 29 Turkey1 447 424 424 30 Russian Federation 440 476 479 31 Mexico 410 406 410 32 Brazil1 393 370 390 33 United States .. 474 489 Rank Country Maths Science Reading 1 Finland 548 563 547 2 Korea 547 522 556 3 Netherlands 531 525 507 4 Switzerland 530 512 499 5 Canada 527 534 527 6 Japan 523 531 498 7 New Zealand 522 530 521 8 Belgium 520 510 501 9 Australia 520 527 513 10 Denmark 513 496 494 11 Czech Republic1 510 513 483 12 Iceland 506 491 484 13 Austria 505 511 490 14 Germany 504 516 495 15 Sweden 502 503 507 16 Ireland 501 508 517 17 OECD average 498 500 492 18 France 496 495 488 19 United Kingdom 495 515 495 20 Poland1 495 498 508 21 Slovak Republic 492 488 466 22 Hungary 491 504 482 23 Luxembourg 490 486 479 24 Norway 490 487 484 25 Spain 480 488 461 26 Russian Federation 476 479 440 27 United States 474 489 .. 28 Portugal1 466 474 472 29 Italy 462 475 469 30 Greece 459 473 460 31 Turkey1 424 424 447 32 Mexico 406 410 410 33 Brazil1 370 390 393 Rank Country Science Reading Maths 1 Finland 563 547 548 2 Canada 534 527 527 3 Japan 531 498 523 4 New Zealand 530 521 522 5 Australia 527 513 520 6 Netherlands 525 507 531 7 Korea 522 556 547 8 Germany 516 495 504 9 United Kingdom 515 495 495 10 Czech Republic1 513 483 510 11 Switzerland 512 499 530 12 Austria 511 490 505 13 Belgium 510 501 520 14 Ireland 508 517 501 15 Hungary 504 482 491 16 Sweden 503 507 502 17 OECD average 500 492 498 18 Poland1 498 508 495 19 Denmark 496 494 513 20 France 495 488 496 21 Iceland 491 484 506 22 United States 489 .. 474 23 Slovak Republic 488 466 492 24 Spain 488 461 480 25 Norway 487 484 490 26 Luxembourg 486 479 490 27 Russian Federation 479 440 476 28 Italy 475 469 462 29 Portugal1 474 472 466 30 Greece 473 460 459 31 Turkey1 424 447 424 32 Mexico 410 410 406 33 Brazil1 390 393 370  NOTES: These tables show student performance on the reading, scientific and mathematical literacy scales, mean score, measured in 2006, and reported in OECD's Education at a Glance 2009. Students were tested at age 15 and therefore approaching the end of compulsory schooling. 1In these countries, tertiary-type A attainment includes all types of tertiary level degrees.

 
Source Country Rankings  2009 OECD

No question about the math at least. Some American students came to our school(grade 11), and though we were in the same age, what they were learning were years behind what we are learning. SAT math is too easy for me even though my math is considered 'above average' here in Korea(I can get a perfect score if I study for like few weeks, and some actually have) 
 
On the other hand, the passion for parents to make their kids study more is actually becoming a social problem, and much of the household income goes to fund private tutoring(math, english, korean etc). I have never been to a English speaking country, my experience with native English spearkers is extremely limited, but here I am, writing and reading English just like you(actually, my listening and speaking is bad and I agreed to meet with Shigzeo a few weeks later and I'm quite worried

). How much private tutoring did this cost? I'd say around $30~40k my parents spent to teach me this much English. (another $30k for math, and another $10k for Korean)
 
Result? 1) I had to stay up until 3 in the morning(and I have to wake up at 6) for English debate preparation--for a week. There are two debates next month. 2) It took me approx 10 months for me to get a HSK 6 since I first learned how to pronounce bo po mo fo, and this costed like $0.5k
 
(don't get me wrong, not every family in Korea is like this, but a lot are--and my school is actually a foreign language high school specializing in teaching languages)
 
Life is different here as a student

 

[Cianyx]

Quote:

I believe he was referring to the rise of an elite oligarchy.  Even Leninism had a Vanguard.  I really can't comment further on that point w/ respect to current trends w/o getting into political views and ideology.  Obviously a ruling class is contrary to a Democratic system.  Many feel the current trend is headed in such a a direction.  A Legislative review in concert w/ polling data can help illustrate the point.  

I still don't think that an intellectual society would present much of a problem to democracy. It is not often that intellectuals share the same opinion to the extent of dissolving the democratic system. If anything, it adds scrutiny. I'll drop this for now though.

 

[Prog Rock Man]

For intellectual read more educated in an environment where education is appreciated. How that threatens democracy is beyond me. It is those who reject education and are more interested in voting for a pop idol who are a far greater risk to democracy.

 

[grokit]

This is the lead from an article the current leading newspaper in my city today, but IMO it could be from any city at any time:

"Facing a multimillion-dollar budget hole for next year, the [insert your city here] school superintendent said Tuesday she is starting to plan for layoffs and program cuts.
Speaking to the [insert your city here] Assembly, Superintendent [Jane Doe] said the district is looking at about a $20 million shortfall, based on flat funding from the state.
"There will be program cuts. There will be layoffs," she said. "We will be going through exercises from now until January looking for budget cuts," she said, examining programs, talking to union leaders and others"

How many times have we read an article that starts out similar to this?
 
As far as democracy goes, putting school funding in the hands of local and/or state voters and politicians seems like a bad application of it, as almost everyone votes their wallet unless they have school-age children and are directly affected.
 
BTW, we're discussing policy here, not politics or ideologies.

 

[Prog Rock Man]

My experience, I have a child at school, so do all of my friends and I have worked with a school planning programmes for disruptive children, is that parents need to be more active in schooling. Too many hand their children over in the morning and pick them up in the afternoon (if they can even be bothered to manage that) and think they have provided for the child's education. You will find that no matter the school, if the parents are active in ensuring their child learns to read, write, count and learn, they will go on and do well.

 

[revolink24]

Quote:

 

Another example of the massive regional differences and inequities in our public education system.

Correct.

 

[nsx_23]

Quote:

No question about the math at least. Some American students came to our school(grade 11), and though we were in the same age, what they were learning were years behind what we are learning. SAT math is too easy for me even though my math is considered 'above average' here in Korea(I can get a perfect score if I study for like few weeks, and some actually have)   
On the other hand, the passion for parents to make their kids study more is actually becoming a social problem, and much of the household income goes to fund private tutoring(math, english, korean etc). I have never been to a English speaking country, my experience with native English spearkers is extremely limited, but here I am, writing and reading English just like you(actually, my listening and speaking is bad and I agreed to meet with Shigzeo a few weeks later and I'm quite worried

). How much private tutoring did this cost? I'd say around $30~40k my parents spent to teach me this much English. (another $30k for math, and another $10k for Korean)
 
Result? 1) I had to stay up until 3 in the morning(and I have to wake up at 6) for English debate preparation--for a week. There are two debates next month. 2) It took me approx 10 months for me to get a HSK 6 since I first learned how to pronounce bo po mo fo, and this costed like $0.5k
 
(don't get me wrong, not every family in Korea is like this, but a lot are--and my school is actually a foreign language high school specializing in teaching languages)
 
Life is different here as a student

I'd say people these days are far to caught up on university as the ONLY way to success, thus failing to realize their true potential and skillsets. I can't stand university (In my final year atm), and strongly believe that professional jobs such as engineering and commerce just can't be taught in what is essentially an educational system leftover from the industrial revolution. Intelligence should not be defined by what someone scores on an exam as people differ far too much in skillsets, and ultimately the world requires a wide variety of people to function correctly. Serious education reform needs to happen before we get stuck into a trap where we're just churning out the same people over and over again. 
 
I didn't really have any tutoring when I did my high school and was always amused at how much money people would spend to tutor their kids. In Hong Kong its reached a point where tuition has become a substitution for high school, and tutors are advertised on buses like celebrities. The only tutoring I had was Chemistry as I struggled with it, but otherwise I did everything on my own and still managed to score well....

 

[Beekeeper]

[size=10pt]I believe that the below speeches of Ken Robinson regarding education are very interesting [/size]
[size=10pt] [/size]
[size=10pt]http://www.ted.com/talks/sir_ken_robinson_bring_on_the_revolution.html [/size]
[size=10pt] [/size]
[size=10pt]http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/ken_robinson_says_schools_kill_creativity.html [/size]

 

[Anaxilus]

Quote:

I still don't think that an intellectual society would present much of a problem to democracy. It is not often that intellectuals share the same opinion to the extent of dissolving the democratic system. If anything, it adds scrutiny. I'll drop this for now though.

I don't think that was the point he was making.  Obviously if everyone could have the highest level of education , that would be a good thing, for the most part.  He was describing the expanding intellectual gulf which would appear to correlate to ever increasing class discrepancies.  The concern isn't over mass education but education and intellect in the hands of the few 'knowing' what is best for everyone else.

 

[Anaxilus]

Quote:

My experience, I have a child at school, so do all of my friends and I have worked with a school planning programmes for disruptive children, is that parents need to be more active in schooling. Too many hand their children over in the morning and pick them up in the afternoon (if they can even be bothered to manage that) and think they have provided for the child's education. You will find that no matter the school, if the parents are active in ensuring their child learns to read, write, count and learn, they will go on and do well.

^ This.  I think the decline in youth education is directly related in the decline of parenting.  There are also social pressures responsible for this but that reinforces the point that most modern families have a different value set than prior generations.

 

[grokit]

It's all Dr. Spock's fault, of course. Letting kids "find themselves" is a bunch of rubbish, they need guidance.

 

[NorthWolfeCND]

I really don't see it as anyone's fault. An, no, those graphics usually presented by some organizations are, for the most part useless; more, they are one of the worst culprits - for government statistics are one of the main reasons behind the education nightmare. The decline is general, in all western societies. I find myself traveling around the world (mostly Canada, USA, UK, Scandinavia, Western Russia, Iberian Peninsula), and everywhere is the same horrid seen. The fault lies at Democracies feet. By insisting on universal-mandatory education, the level could only decrease, and it will get worst. Teachers have to lower standards of classes to that of the less capable students, this leads the more capable students to "drop-out", loose interest, ADS...
 
More dramatic is the fact that many governments have, in practice, abolished failure, flunking, and any other hurdles that stand in the way of statistics, every student getting a diploma, electoral propaganda...
This is not just crippling all Public Education institutions, but, more seriously, crippling the students it claims to be giving a "fare-chance". After years of doing nothing, learning nothing, having no obstacles; the students are left with a piece of paper, and the "real-world", which they have not been equipped to deal with (the blind leading the stupid).
 
Solution: It's too late for the Nation-States to turn back the clock, and implement real education. The very parents that see this "rise of the idiots", would be the first to revolt if their kids start getting bad notes, or, god forbid it, start flunking - no elected government will risk alienating so many peop...voters...
 
If you want a good education for your kids, do like me - Great private schools in the UK and Switzerland, or other countries with prestigious private education institutions... (US school system is way too toxic these days - religion, political correctness, Race issues...)

 

[Cianyx]

Quote:

I don't think that was the point he was making.  Obviously if everyone could have the highest level of education , that would be a good thing, for the most part.  He was describing the expanding intellectual gulf which would appear to correlate to ever increasing class discrepancies.  The concern isn't over mass education but education and intellect in the hands of the few 'knowing' what is best for everyone else.

Class discrepancies has always existed regardless of intellectual levels. Besides that, jobs which involve large scale policies and economics has always been reserved for intellectuals anyway, as opposed to the mom and pop stores. What he describes is a growing push for jobs requiring higher intellectual skill. Sure, the rulers of the nation may be in the hands of a few intellects of power (like it always has been) but this growing push ensures that a larger sample of people can have input into the system. Still not a true democracy, but I still see the decentralisation of power as a significant improvement. 
 
Another thing, I don't really get what you mean by 'education and intellect in the hands of the few''.